Hi all. I am coming this weekend and was suggested the Winchester Ballistics Calculator, but that doesn't look like it will work on my phone. Are you guys familiar with other calculators that I can use? So excited for this weekend! Thanks!
You won't need a ballistics calculator during the class itself.
If you can't get to an online calculator to complete the advance assignment, it won't hold you back.
See you Saturday morning.
Rusty
not really an app, but accessible from your phone
Applied Ballistics - http://appliedballisticsllc.com/ballistics/
I have found the Hornady one useful. Thanks.
I use Strelok.
It's not bad, comes close to what the rifle does.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/
http://www.shooterapp.net/
http://www.gunsandammo.com/gear-accessories/best-ballistics-apps-available-now/
I use Strelok. It is accurate if you pay attention to bullet velocity ranges to pick the right G1 model coefficient for your bullet. Helps to chronograph the muzzle velocity, too. Do it right, and it is very accurate. Old school way is simply use the rules of thumb, and see what your rifle does, and record your come-ups. For cheap rounds like 5.56, .223, .308 and .30-06, this is ok. For expensive rounds that run $1.50, or $3 or $7 each, it is better to do your homework, run Strelok, and reduce your cost to build your come-up tables by a bunch. (I.e., 7mm Rem. Mag, .338 Lapua, .50 BMG, etc.).
I personally prefer old school methods with cheap ball rounds out to 400 yards. But, some KD Appleseeds do provide opportunities to find out what your special rifles can do out to 1,000 yards and well beyond. Like everything else, it all depends on circumstances.
For example, we have a KD Appleseed October 8-9, 2016 in KY that will provide an opportunity to use "special" rifles with no caliber restrictions save Shoot Boss discretion. The range does not care. We still have 8 spots open on the line. The standard 100-400 yard AQTs can be done with standard KD Appleseed rifles. The "bonus" of longer range shooting, time permitting, will be out to 1,000 yards, on Sunday. There is a possibility, too, the day after the 2-day KD, on Monday, to get some private non-Appleseed range time in, on out to around 1,800 yards, at this special range, if you pay the regular commercial range fees, additionally. If you find yourself in such an opportunity, Strelok becomes very much a money-saver. It all depends.
--gb
Quote from: 2 clicks low on August 26, 2016, 12:23:52 AM
I use Strelok.
It's not bad, comes close to what the rifle does.
I agree - it's a pretty good basic calculator. At very long range and or extremely high or low velocities the lack of G7 BC support makes it less than ideal. If you're somewhere with network support I'd use JBM instead.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Thanks Darryl for starting a very interesting string. Is this your first Appleseed? Is this a 25 meter course or will you see longer known distances? What kind of rifle and sights will you be bringing? Be safe and have a blast.
Quote from: Rev.357 on August 26, 2016, 07:02:42 PM
Thanks Darryl for starting a very interesting string. Is this your first Appleseed? Is this a 25 meter course or will you see longer known distances? What kind of rifle and sights will you be bringing? Be safe and have a blast.
This will be my second. I was able to achieve Rifleman at Ramseur on April 19, 2015 (appropriate eh?) with a borrowed .22 on the 25 meter course after having problems with my gear all day. That was great! This is the Known Distance. Generic AR with irons should be a challenge! Excited.
I love it. A rifleman with a jar (just another rifle), and ironsights to boot. I did mine with irons at a Winterseed, and my seventeen year old daughter patched a couple of weeks ago with an ironsighted bolt jar (48 V4 on stage two).Get a good basic rifle, name it after your wife, and spend time eith both of them.
I picturing this delivery cool and casual. "Ramsuer, April 19." Kinda like, "Bond, James Bond. "
I think you can use your front post sight to approximate one MOA.
I'll give it 48 or so, then im looking for a report.
Darryl,
:pop:
I use Strelok as well. I went ahead and paid the $12 for the Strelok Pro as it came with so many more options. I was just wanting to get my reticle loaded when i bought the Pro but it came with so much more it was worth the money. Hope you had as much fun as i did this past weekend at the KD!!! ^:)^
What are you guys using the ballistics calculator for?
I've used the Hornady online calculator to get an idea of the effects of a particular bullet and velocity, but my best results have been shooting the rifle, measuring the velocity and examining the bullet path. For service rifles this is easy. For 22's out to 200 yards, its not too difficult either.
I am reminded of some advice I read years ago, that I reposted here.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=21263.0
Quote from: Pelon on August 29, 2016, 11:47:50 AM
Darryl,
:pop:
I use Strelok as well. I went ahead and paid the $12 for the Strelok Pro as it came with so many more options. I was just wanting to get my reticle loaded when i bought the Pro but it came with so much more it was worth the money. Hope you had as much fun as i did this past weekend at the KD!!! ^:)^
Hey Mike,
I had a great time. I was frustrated on Sat as I wasn't prepared and bought a bunch of ammo that I wasn't sighted in for because I thought we were shooting steel. Then a hard time sighting it in and didn't want to hold everyone up. I hope it didn't show too much. My first KD so what do I know? Anyway I relaxed and had a great time on Sunday especially as the day ended and there were just a few of us. Learned a whole bunch as I had never shot KD or even know my rifle that well. Definitely a challenge with irons! Enjoyed meeting you, Bill, his son and LaToy. Great bunch and excited to be an Orange Hat!
Darryl
thanks so much for stepping up!!!
i'll help you however i can just shoot me a PM and let me know what you need.
if you need help finding what your rifle likes to eat shoot me a PM on that as well and i'll help you work that out.
I thought you did a great job with the iron sights! If I could see the well enough to make out the front sight i would give it a try but i'll stick to my Vortex for now (and for later too!!!) :~
And when you see 'Grand Ma' tell him I said hello!!! **)
Grandma! Lol!
I will tell you man as I sit here and type this I think eyesight was the issue. I need glasses to read and tested my sight before coming and though I could see it good enough, but not 100% clear. I have to wonder if that was the difference. Time to start shopping for another Upper as I have an A2 carry handle upper. Not going to scope that. Thanks for the offer to help. I'll keep that in mind. As far as what it like of the brands I tested it liked the 62gr Am Eagle Green Tips best, but I got PMC which was second best in testing because of the steel core. My hunch is it likes 62gr anything better than 55 as it is 1:9 twist.
Darryl
If you're not seeing that front sight, that could/would have been an issue.
Put some glasses on!!! ~~:)
Hi Mike,
Ballistic calculators allow one to do two primary functions. (1) Figure out long range ballistics at distances well beyond the Rifleman's Quarter Mile, and (2) get a rough idea of the come-ups needed for various fixed distances with your particular rifle, depending on sight offset from bore, muzzle velocity, and bullet type.
In the first case, when shooting well past traditional quarter mile ranges using rifles, ballistic calculators allow one to understand what scope bases are needed. Do you need a 15, 20, 30 MOA base, or something entirely different, for use with your intended scope? You only get about 70 MOA total adjustment range with many scopes. Only about half that is available if using a 0 MOA base. If you are wanting to shoot out to 1,000 yards, for example, you need anywhere from 35 to 50 MOA total come-up, depending on your cartridge and rifle. If your scope can just get there, at the very upper limits of its come-up range, you now have no windage capability left available, due to the mechanical scope tube limits. Put in the appropriate scope base, though, say 20 MOA, thereby permitting using both ends of the scope's elevation adjustment range, and you now do have significant windage adjustment capability out at distance. Your mechanical elevation and windage is now not max'ed out. With a 10 mph full value cross wind at 1000 yards, you need anywhere from about 6 MOA to 10+ MOA of windage, depending on your rifle's and its bullet's characteristics. If your scope is maxed out getting to 1000 yards, you only have KY windage available. A ballistics calculator becomes very nice to have, when building up a rifle, to avoid making expensive mistakes.
In the second case, when shooting expensive cartridges at longer ranges, a ballistic calculator is a definite money saver, too.
At distances out to only 400 yards, or even to 600 yards, a ballistics calculator is often not needed. Except when shooting expensive ammo in a rifle suitable for reaching out to distances from 1200 to 2400 yards, and simply getting DOPE (data on previous engagements, data on personal equipment) at the shorter ranges out to 400 to 600 yards. Then, the ballistics calculator becomes very worthwhile.
Appleseed is traditionally a shoot what you bring event. Not everyone shoots a service rifle, solely. Diversity in rifles is a good thing! It makes one think, at the very least.
--gb
What's up, fellas? :cool2:
(It was good meeting you this weekend Darryl. My son stuck it out and finally got his Rocker with irons Sunday afternoon. I heard some talk down at your end of the line about a 2 day training that let you shoot out to 1000 yards or more. I may want to get my son there, do you remember who was talking about that or what the name of the place was?
You are talking about having trouble seeing your Irons, there was a discussion over on the M14 forum recently about that. There is a member there named Art (ShootingSight) that has some good thoughts on what is needed as out eyes start failing us.
http://m14forum.com/vision/223745-old-guy-eyes-questions.html
I took his advice and got a dedicated set of glasses for shooting my M14 and now my front sight is sharp as a tack. I did make one mistake when I ordered them, I got them tinted yellow and they really cut down on the light I have to shoot with. I may go back and get another set made without tint. Bottom line is if you just need distance correction in your glasses you add .75 (AR or Pistol) or .50 (standard M1/M14) to your prescription and it will get you focused on your front sight. If you wear BiFocals like me you do NOT want the lineless version, get the ones with the old fashioned windows at the bottom. you do have to take the .75 or .50 you added to your base prescription off of the Add for your nearvision to keep it correct.
Finally back to the original thread about calculators... I do not have anywhere to shoot my rifles at paper out past 100 yards. I spent a good bit of time working with the calculators I use and the different sight adjustments on my rifles. My real goal this weekend was to get firing dope on my rifles and compare it to the predictions. I was really pleased this weekend on how well they predicted my sight adjustments. The AR15 my son shot, the AR10 and M1A I shot all were within a minute of being correct at 200, 300, and 400 yards based on a 25 Yard sight-in (with some offsets) and verification at 100 yards.
Quote from: Rusty on August 29, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
What's up, fellas? :cool2:
HI Grandma! Lol! Hey I wanted to talk to both you and Ben to say that I was sorry I got so frustrated on Saturday. I felt like I acted like a jerk and wanted to apologize, but you left too soon. One great thing about Appleseed is that it has taught me to stick and stay, and never give up! Anyway, thanks for doing our event and making the drive. You guys are awesome!
Quote from: NightFisher on August 29, 2016, 08:07:56 PM
(It was good meeting you this weekend Darryl. My son stuck it out and finally got his Rocker with irons Sunday afternoon. I heard some talk down at your end of the line about a 2 day training that let you shoot out to 1000 yards or more. I may want to get my son there, do you remember who was talking about that or what the name of the place was?
You are talking about having trouble seeing your Irons, there was a discussion over on the M14 forum recently about that. There is a member there named Art (ShootingSight) that has some good thoughts on what is needed as out eyes start failing us.
http://m14forum.com/vision/223745-old-guy-eyes-questions.html
I took his advice and got a dedicated set of glasses for shooting my M14 and now my front sight is sharp as a tack. I did make one mistake when I ordered them, I got them tinted yellow and they really cut down on the light I have to shoot with. I may go back and get another set made without tint. Bottom line is if you just need distance correction in your glasses you add .75 (AR or Pistol) or .50 (standard M1/M14) to your prescription and it will get you focused on your front sight. If you wear BiFocals like me you do NOT want the lineless version, get the ones with the old fashioned windows at the bottom. you do have to take the .75 or .50 you added to your base prescription off of the Add for your nearvision to keep it correct.
Finally back to the original thread about calculators... I do not have anywhere to shoot my rifles at paper out past 100 yards. I spent a good bit of time working with the calculators I use and the different sight adjustments on my rifles. My real goal this weekend was to get firing dope on my rifles and compare it to the predictions. I was really pleased this weekend on how well they predicted my sight adjustments. The AR15 my son shot, the AR10 and M1A I shot all were within a minute of being correct at 200, 300, and 400 yards based on a 25 Yard sight-in (with some offsets) and verification at 100 yards.
You too Bill. Rusty and Ben were talking about the KD in Alabama at the end of October. I tried my reading glasses, but it blurred everything in the background so much it was un doable. I see at distance perfectly, but cant read anymore. I will check out that forum on this subject. Thanks.
Quote from: baddarryl on August 29, 2016, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: Rusty on August 29, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
What's up, fellas? :cool2:
HI Grandma! Lol! Hey I wanted to talk to both you and Ben to say that I was sorry I got so frustrated on Saturday. I felt like I acted like a jerk and wanted to apologize, but you left too soon. One great thing about Appleseed is that it has taught me to stick and stay, and never give up! Anyway, thanks for doing our event and making the drive. You guys are awesome!
Dude, you were fine. You got a little frustrated but persevered. We have ALL been there. I'm glad you came back Sunday!
It was good to see ya in that shiny orange hat! Congrats! O0
Dope is exactly what I am getting at. The Appleseed come ups, 2.2.3.3,4,4 get you out to 600 on paper with all of the surplus and commercial ammo I have tested. 55s, 62s, 69's, 77's, 147's 150's and 168's. You aren't always in the 10 ring but you have a reliable starting point for a called shot. From there you adjust during sighters. Heck, with the 223 at Appleseed distances one can shoot a KD Rifleman score without much (if any) adjustment until you get to 400. From there 500 will generally drop 4 MOA and 600 will as well.
Now obviously there will be tweaks required. But with a good 25m zero and a few shots at each range a lot of KD riflemen have been made. Back in July 2010, Fred asked some of us what we would look for in someone to shoot well at KD distances. My answer then, and now, was a rifleman who had some experience with his center fire.
If you can take your center fire and shoot a rifleman score at 25m, you can do it at KD. With a little wind coaching you can do it at 600 yards as well. Particularly if we are only talking about shooting 80%. I own ballistics calculators and kestrel weather devices, but the best I have ever shot was with ammo that I knew and watching the mirage between me and the target. It's like magic.
Ramseur is a protected range that has a few micro weather patterns between the firing line and the cross ties at 500 yards. You are shooting up or down hill, with the exception of 300 and I've noticed a cross wind in the bottom at 200. But with a good zero, it won't blow you out Of the 5 unless you are shooting too high.
My point is that knowledge of your rifle and your load, a good position, good sight alignment and good trigger control means good scores. I've learned the hard way that more equipment won't make you a better shooter until you correct the fundamentals in yourself. So use the calculator or the Kestrel, or the Horus reticle, but remember that in the end it's still the position, NPA, sight alignment and trigger control that matter the most.
Mike
Quote from: baddarryl on August 29, 2016, 08:22:06 PM
You too Bill. Rusty and Ben were talking about the KD in Alabama at the end of October. I tried my reading glasses, but it blurred everything in the background so much it was un doable. I see at distance perfectly, but cant read anymore. I will check out that forum on this subject. Thanks.
That was the KD at Talladega, I thought I heard some discussion about a non Appleseed event in VA or NC.
Reading glasses are too strong, if your distance is good you probably need .5 or .75 but Art can put you on the right path.
JMDavis, were you at the event this weekend? There were about 4 Mikes there! Lol!
Darryl. I can identify with frustration. In addition to trying to address thurty concepts simutaneously, there is the exhaustion and dehydration. They say relax. Relax? I havnt relaxed since i was five. Furthermore, i maintain if you can see the front sights little on the target, you are cheating. Im always impressed by a man with an ironsighted jar.
Now, about this orange hat. This is a new hat? Super. The other side of the line is way different. I am amazed how well the program works. Invariably every shooter shoots better at the end of the dsy. You will love the instructor training, although it can be frustrating too. Thanks for stepping up. Keep up the good work.
NightFisher. Did I see NightFisher? I thought you took your grandson a couple months back, and he patched with irons. This time you took your son out, and he took home a KD rocker? Keep up the good work. You wouldnt want to adopt a fat, arthritic, asthmatic, old man?
No my last KD at Ramseur was running the May 2011 Bootcamp.
Quote from: Rev.357 on August 29, 2016, 11:18:02 PM
NightFisher. Did I see NightFisher? I thought you took your grandson a couple months back, and he patched with irons. This time you took your son out, and he took home a KD rocker? Keep up the good work. You wouldnt want to adopt a fat, arthritic, asthmatic, old man?
Yup, that was me. My kids always out shoot me, ain't it great? Granddaughter is talking about going to a 25 next spring so they plan to keep me busy.
Nightfisher's son here.
I had a BB gun in my hands as far back as I can remember, and last year my Dad built me an amazing rifle. I told him earlier that 2 years ago I was amazed when I went to the range with some work buddies that I could hit a 10" plate at 100 yards, using an AR-15, with scope and front rest.
This weekend I got my long distance rocker on irons.
It's been a really great experience going to our first appleseed together (both of our first times), then the first KD together (neither of us qualified), and now on our 2nd KD, I got my rocker.
Thanks Nightfisher for introducing me to all this, and thank all the volunteers that come together to make this happen.
That is a great post notagoodshot :)- Good job Nightfisher!
Quote from: notagoodshot on August 31, 2016, 02:44:03 PM
Nightfisher's son here.
I had a BB gun in my hands as far back as I can remember, and last year my Dad built me an amazing rifle. I told him earlier that 2 years ago I was amazed when I went to the range with some work buddies that I could hit a 10" plate at 100 yards, using an AR-15, with scope and front rest.
This weekend I got my long distance rocker on irons.
It's been a really great experience going to our first appleseed together (both of our first times), then the first KD together (neither of us qualified), and now on our 2nd KD, I got my rocker.
Thanks Nightfisher for introducing me to all this, and thank all the volunteers that come together to make this happen.
Good stull Will. I mentioned you your dad were a nice kid too. Hope to shoot with you guys again.
The long range place someone was asking about is Bang Steel in VA. They are right on I-77 in VA just above I-81. You can find them at bangsteel.com. Dan is a great guy and has a world of knowledge. Sign up early as he only has 4-6 shooters a weekend and be sure to tell him you are an Appleseeder. You will be shooting out to 1400 yards by your second day. He will help you make your DOPE card for your rifle and if your rifle has a 20moa or better riser on your mount then there is a good chance you can shoot the mile shot.
Hope to see all y'all soon!
Pelon
M.O., Ben or whoever was at dinner that Saturday night...
What was the lube you were using for resizing your cases???
Pelon
I use One Shot, as I got a deal on a bunch of cans. I reuse the same heavy ziplock bag over and over.
I think Wreck uses a Lanolin and ISO-Heet mix. I plan on switching to it when I run out of the Hornady stuff.
This is what I use....
https://www.amazon.com/Now-Solutions-Lanolin-Pure-Ounce/dp/B000I1OYNK
I just dip every 5th case neck in the stuff and rub it down the case with my fingers as I put put it in the press. Enough stays on my fingers to rub down the next 4 cases.
I use lanolin for my Ed's Red lube, (I use imperial wax for reloading)
Thanks Y'all!!!
:bow: