No, that is not a misprint. And no, such a thing does not officially exist at this point, although it certainly should, to my way of thinking. Goose had the brilliant idea. I wish I could claim it as my own, but right is right. Fact is, I was just thinking yesterday that in spite of the depth and excellence of Georgia's Appleseed instructor cadre, we are woefully short of Shoot Bosses. And as Fred loves to point out, in Appleseed we don't have to put up with problems, we can address and solve them.
What I have in mind is this. Let's have a one day event at some convenient point, air conditioned of course, and during the hot part of the summer. Let's do a very thorough admin meeting, where we give prospective Shoot Bosses the training necessary to run their first event as Shoot Boss with confidence and aplomb. I had in mind limiting attendance to Red Hats, perhaps very senior IITs who have the determination to serve their country through Appleseed to the best of their ability. It would not be expected that everyone attending such an affair would make the decision to proceed. For others, it may seem like the veil of mystery about how certain things are done would be lifted and they become better instructors by so knowing.
An added attraction might be the possibility to eat a meal together and to discuss the Appleseed program in Georgia and adjoining states. What say ye, my friends and colleagues? If there is sufficient interest, we can begin to discuss a date and a venue.
Schedule permitting, I'd love to attend. Seems like a great idea.
Great idea, good luck with it Dr. John. One thing to consider is to combine the actual instruction with an upcoming event to give the instructors experience with making decisions.
More than once I had people testing for Red Hat become involved with POI and actually running a day of an event, with supervision. Then we held an AAR and talked about what worked, what didn't, what to keep, what to improve and what to leave out. Of course that was in the days of all red hats being shootbosses.
Mike
Schedule permitting, I'd love to attend.
Anything west of Atlanta is a big plus. That traffic is a bear!
Hmmm, there's always Anniston Alabama... maybe include a field trip to the CMP... for professional development purposes, of course. :))
If you held this in Southcentral Alaska, you wouldn't need Air Conditioning.
;)
fisherdawg
To Rusty's point, Anniston is a reasonably short drive for most in our area of influence. I'd certainly attend if my schedule permits.
Don't let Fred get wind of this, he'll tell you thanks for volunteering to write a COF. It does sound like a great idea though, so thanks for volunteering **)
PK
Quote from: Pain Killer on March 24, 2014, 06:35:11 PM
Don't let Fred get wind of this, he'll tell you thanks for volunteering to write a COF. It does sound like a great idea though, so thanks for volunteering **)
PK
I'd love to see some SBBC's taught by Fred. O0
I think the COF is already mostly done - seems to me that the existing AIBC already covers much of the mindset and instruction QC aspect of being a Shoot Boss quite nicely, all that needs to be added is a bit more on IIT mentoring/promotion and general SB paperwork/range liaison requirements.
The real things that I think a shoot boss needs to master are:
1. The pace of an Appleseed is determined by the students, not the POI, not the COI, the students. It is not USMC bootcamp, it is not SEAL PT, it is not a race. You are there for the shooters and you should respond to their needs.
2. The most important thing is a safe event.
3. Redhats and Senior IIT's, in particular, should be observing and coaching shooters. My belief is that such coaching does not include interrupting them during an AQT, but your mileage may vary.
4. Don't get wrapped around the axle with details. The second part of this is Praise in public and correct in private.
5. You can tell more from watching a shooters muzzle than from watching their finger.
6. The order for problem correction is position, breathing, and trigger control. Without a solid position, the best breathing, sight alignment and trigger control will still only bring mediocre results. In other words, don't even think of correcting "Dragging wood, until you have determined that the shooter has a solid position, and is executing respiratory pause. And even then make sure that their fingers are long enough to avoid dragging wood (with the "firm handshake grip).
7. Remember #1
8. Remember #2
9. Students are there to learn so do your best in instructing them. Whether it is history, positions, inches-minutes-clicks, npoa or something else. Do your best.
Logistics and time management are two big step ups from the RH level of responsibility to SB. It's a management job, after all, and someone who hasn't done that before needs of that (plus the personnel issues) described explicitly.
Quote from: Nero on March 25, 2014, 12:17:07 AM
Logistics and time management are two big step ups from the RH level of responsibility to SB. It's a management job, after all, and someone who hasn't done that before needs of that (plus the personnel issues) described explicitly.
Actually I consider it a leadership job, not a management job. Telling people what to do is management. Helping them to see what needs to be done and doing it is leadership. The best filled out forms don't make a good event, aren't remembered by the students, and do nothing to further freedom. You have to know how to fill out the forms, and you have to be able to teach it to others, but it is administrivia. I never found the forms terribly difficult. On the other hand teaching introverts to perform, that's another story.
I learned to run an event from watching and working with VAShooter, Dragginwood, Talon, Junior Birdman, Son of Martha, Crashkid2k, Fred, and boltgun71. It was excellent OJT. More was learned later when I already was a shootboss and SI from working with the Guy, Dinkydao, Longshot, eel, and pappy. I also spent time communicating offline with these people to bounce ideas off of them. Other ideas like instructor AQT demos (TPI, is visual, auditory, and actual practice) came from a need recognized during the course of an event. The idea of zeroring on stage 4 targets came from bootcamps where I realized that the zeros people thought they had weren't and the positive results of the practice could be seen over a period of a few days.
Dr.John has his plan and I have no doubt that it will cover what needs to be covered. He does things RIGHT and has since I first met him at the Feb 2010 Ramseur bootcamp run by Crashkid2k.
While in general agreement with mjdavis's post, two of his points need to be reconsidered.
Quote from: jmdavis on March 24, 2014, 09:04:14 PM
5. You can tell more from watching a shooters muzzle than from watching their finger.
You may be able to tell something from watching the muzzle, but I don't think it's "more" than the trigger finger. Most new shooters (and some "experienced" ones) have MAJOR issues ref the trigger finger - about which, see below. If in Ball & Dummy, trigger finger and trigger eye lid - especially the latter - are the key things to watch.
Quote
6. The order for problem correction is position, breathing, and trigger control. Without a solid position, the best breathing, sight alignment and trigger control will still only bring mediocre results. In other words, don't even think of correcting "Dragging wood, until you have determined that the shooter has a solid position, and is executing respiratory pause. And even then make sure that their fingers are long enough to avoid dragging wood (with the "firm handshake grip).
While the order listed may be logically correct, we should remember that "position issues" may outlast the weekend AS - it may take weeks of range time before the elbow is under the rifle "enough" - and it would be a shame to ignore other major problems - such as trigger finger issues, breathing, NPOA - until the shooter has a good position.
Me, I correct errors when and as I see them, as most errors will need to be corrected many times before "doing things the right way" sinks into the shooter's consciousness/habit pattern.
Motto: Correct shooter errors, any errors, all errors, instantly - at the time you see them. That includes (especially!) when and as the shooter is shooting - that's when he's making the errors; that's when the errors need to be called to his attention - so he can stop making them.
Fred,
If the muzzle is not moving and the shots are true, what should we correct? If it is moving one looks for a cause. As someone with small hands who was taught by others with small hands, I realize that the fact that someone is "dragging wood" doesn't matter if they are shooting V's or X's. An excellent example of someone with small hands succeeding is Sherri Gallagher 2010 National champion with a 2396 and 161x out of a 240 shot 2400. At 5' and with small hands she uses a cue ball as a grip in offhand. I also remember being told repeatedly that I was dragging wood in offhand while I was shooting in the high 40's at my first appleseed. I have actually watched a RedHat yell "you're dragging wood" to a small 9 year old shooting offhand. Of course he was dragging wood he had small hands, short fingers and was shooting a standard sized 10/22. But he was also shooting 4's and 5's that were well centered. Shouldn't any correction be based on an actual problem as demonstrated by performance?
You do have a point about repetition and that it can take time to learn. But that is why it is sometimes necessary to go one on one with a shooter to correct serious things. Much more can be learned and corrected from spending 5 or 10 minutes watching a shooter than from a walkby correction, in my opinion.
I came to the conclusions via a conversation with VAShooter while we were driving to NJ for the first NJ event in 2009. I knew that he had, while a member of the Navy Shooting Team, taught midshipmen at Annapolis. He taught pistol and had 5-30 minute individual sessions to teach 18 year olds to shoot a 1911. His result was a +70% expert rate. To me that result for that relatively small time investment is astounding. I think that it could be something that Appleseed can learn from.
This is a thread about the Georgia cadre getting together to create training program for prospective Shoot Bosses. Kindly limit any discussion in this thread to the relevant topic.
Sooo, back to the original topic;
Yes, the SBIBC is a great idea! I am all for the opportunity to associate further with the fine cadre in GA and those in the surrounding areas.
Location is not too important to me, but I do have adequate facilities available in Cleveland if another venue is not procured. (And it's free!)
If this event would be open to non-Georgia folks, I'd definitely be very interested. Another problem I'd have is that I'm very new, and still an IIT0. But I'm signed up for the next 3 events here, and hope to get to one or two more during the summer, so possibly by the hot part of the summer I could be a red hat, or at least a much more advanced orange hat. I certainly won't be ready to become a shoot boss by late summer, but the class would be good for me to get under my belt anyway.
So, Dr. John, perhaps I'll just keep an eye on this thread and send you a pm if you decide to go through with it, and we could privately discuss whether I'd be allowed to attend? Thanks!
I would entertain traveling all the way to GA for such an opportunity. Fresh ideas and new friends sounds really appealing.
Well this is embarrassing. I just saw this thread and I'm in Georgia. :-\
I will of course be there is it's scheduled and I'm not already booked somewhere else.
Ramblinwreck
I'm game!
The shoot Boss Boot Camp is on! The date is the weekend of Aug. 16-17 at the Georgia Mountain Shooting Assoc. clubhouse, beginning at 2 PM Saturday or whenever the tactical pistol shot is finished, whichever comes first. Jambo, our Appleseed club rep, asks me to relate that anyone is welcome to attend the tactical pistol shoot Saturday morning. Cost of the tactical shoot is $10 and if you want to attend that but don't have a proper pistol, Jambo will loan you his "tactical Tupperware" .40 block, if you supply the .40 ammo. Of course, that tactical event has nothing whatever to do with the Appleseed SBBC later in the day. The Shoot Boss Boot Camp will be a non-shooting event designed to help instructors understand the role of Shoot Boss and to de-mystify the process and explain how very simple and satisfying it is. We will cover routine topics such as what to do before, during, and after an event, how to get certain tasks accomplished in the most efficient and effective way, and certain topics that are not covered in the Shoot Boss Manual, but that are nevertheless useful, in my own experience, to being the most effective Shoot Boss possible. Of course, what is true of Shoot Boss is also true for each Appleseed instructor, in his or her role in mentoring junior instructors up through the ranks.
As an added bonus, we plan to have a "Liberty seminar" Sunday afternoon after the shoot Boss material has been covered. Given the prominent place that Appleseed accords the concept of Liberty, above the head of Capt. Isaac Davis in our Appleseed logo, this seminar on Liberty is well directed. We will discuss what Liberty is, what it is not, the role that Liberty played in the founding of our dear country, why the current generation is so suspicious of Liberty, and how to promote Liberty in the most effective way (not that Liberty needs any promotion over and above its own inherent worth).
This event is open to any and all Appleseed instructors and to those intending to become instructors. There is no charge. Plans are to have a communal cookout Saturday evening and to enjoy each others' company as Patriots and Appleseed family. Registration is through DrJohn on the Appleseed forum, via PM, or by contacting me at 912 223-5808. We plan this to be one of the most enjoyable and productive Appleseed events of the year.Please make plans to join us!
Count me in on all of it.
The pistol shoot, shoot boss boot camp, cookout, and Liberty seminar.
If anybody would like to participate in the pistol shoot I can offer use of everything needed. Specifically a Glock 19 (mid size 9mm that holds 15+1) with magazines, secure holster, and spare magazine pouch.
Count me in for all as well! Huzzah! I'm so glad this is happening and you are putting it on John. Many thank yous.
Armaborealis and I are maybes at this point.
I put this "shoot boss handy reference sheet" together as I've learned through my time as a SB. It isn't complete (probably never will be) but is a reasonably good approximation of what you have to do before and after a shoot. It ISN'T intended to replace the SB manual and it doesn't necessarily try to say how to conduct a shoot. It is, however, a lot of the logistics and management stuff before and after the shoot that most RHs never get to see.
If you hate it, throw it away. If you kinda like it, edit and use freely. If you love it, think dreamy thoughts of SteelThunder whenever you use it
Thanks for suggesting this; where do I sign up?
CM
Quote from: Fabricator on June 16, 2014, 05:48:46 PM
Thanks for suggesting this; where do I sign up?
CM
Quote from: DrJohn on May 26, 2014, 03:00:10 PM
Registration is through DrJohn on the Appleseed forum, via PM, or by contacting me at 912 223-5808. We plan this to be one of the most enjoyable and productive Appleseed events of the year.Please make plans to join us!
See you there! (Talk to Jambo if you want to do the Saturday morning pistol shoot)
I don't suppose there's internet access at that clubhouse? This might be the kind of thing that would be worthwhile to run over a live audio web-conference for all the interested folks that can't travel that weekend.
I shall be there Lord willing. Looking forward to finding out what makes these things tick.