~
I've seen you shoot, I've seen you shoot multiple rifles.
You need to have a serious talk with Mudcat about his Savage Mossburg (Thanks Slim).
- Bolt action.
- 223
- Uses AR magazines
- Short stiff barrel, very accurate
- Seemed pretty light to me
- Looked like something you would enjoy
YHJ
Mudcat's was a Mossberg MVP. And yeah, Jake is absolutely right that it's the rifle for you.
~
Oh, boy, Rayne, you just started a LOOOONNNNNGGGGGGG thread. Bolts are great, love mine, awesome reliability, tons of great choices but I am more fond of semi-autos battle rifles. You could master any of them, seriously. All you would need is practice. I would be careful about anything with a real high sight plane on it, because like Slim's scope on top of A2 handle, it would give your neck some serious pain.
Other than that you have a ton of good options:
AR15: Superb rifle, light, accurate, and as modifiable as legos.
AK: Superb rifle, not too heavy, less accurate, not great open sights, very reliable, and cheaper to shoot than most anything.
FAL: Superb rifle, not too heavy, accurate, slings 308 NATO, sights are not click adjustable but are peep.
M1A: Superb rifle, heavy, accurate, slings 308 NATO, recoil sharp, sights are the best you will find on anything.
M1 Garand: Superb rifle, heavy, accurate, slings 30-06, recoil smooth, sights are the best you will find on anything.
SKS: Superb rifle, not too heavy, less accurate, not great open sights, very reliable, cheaper to shoot and buy than most, not detachable magazine.
Mini-14: Superb rifle, not too heavy, ok accuracy, no real advantage over AR15 and more expensive mags.
Galil: See AK.
Tavor: See AR, but more compact design.
And there are many more like it. The key to notice here is the one consistent item: most all are superb rifles in the right hands.
Shoot a variety, see what fits your body, buy one and then shoot the bejesus out of it. If you want to try different things the instructors in Indiana can help you try more rifles than you could imagine.
Quote from: techres on June 19, 2013, 01:13:32 AM
M1A: Superb rifle, heavy, accurate, slings 308 NATO, recoil sharp, sights are the best you will find on anything.
Rayne,
To my knowledge we have never met on the trail, so my comments come from what fits me. I have a Springfield Armory M1A and it is my go to rifle for anything on the farm. I find it very easy to shoot and carry. It can take a licking and keep on rocking out the ammo... takes a lot for it to malf.
Techres is spot on when he says try a lot of different rifles, the best way to find what you like and what is smooth for you. My only suggestion is the caliber... stick with the common military/Nato calibers. If ever the SHTF, you will want to be able to pick up ammo along the way just as Hezekiah Wyman did on April 19 ;)
Happy shooting and happy shopping!!
In His grip,
ratchett
Quote from: slim on June 19, 2013, 01:01:52 AM
Mudcat's was a Mossberg MVP. And yeah, Jake is absolutely right that it's the rifle for you.
I agree 100%.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/rifles/centerfire/mvp-series
UL
Another vote for the Mossy MVP!
DeckApe has the varmint version. Even with the scope that came in the package deal it shoots really well.
Mossberg has came out with several other versions of this rifle this year.
DeckApes does NOT like Magpul mags but functions flawlessly with the 30 round Brownell's aluminium mags.
There have been magazine articles on this rifle in .308 but I don''t think it is in production yet.
If anyone in Western PA /Eastern Ohio wants to shoot it let me know. He likes to share.
If you would like to borrow a AR to shoot at home and see if it grows on you let me know.
I keep hearing good about the mossberg MVP, but I have never laid hands on one so I cant say much about them.
EVERYONE ought to own an AR15. You can mix and match the pieces into anything from a lightweight defensive carbine to a 600-yard tack driver. Tons of parts available, ammo, optics, etc.
tk
Get a piece of history that you can shoot...the M-1 Garand
Quote from: malabar on June 19, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
EVERYONE ought to own an AR15. You can mix and match the pieces into anything from a lightweight defensive carbine to a 600-yard tack driver. Tons of parts available, ammo, optics, etc.
tk
i am with you 100%. i also think that everyone who can get one, should own an m1 garand as well. two distinct peices of hardware from two distinct eras. shooting either will help you appreciate the other more.
Whatever you choose, I suggest both good irons and optic.
Optic choices are limited for the M1, but if you are comfortable with the Scout concept it can be an excellent choice. It is not necessarily heavier than an AR, it depends on configuration of each rifle.
The Ruger Scout (or Steyr Scout) or many custom scouts could meet your needs. One of the great things about a forward mounted optic is the ability to use stripper clips (or enbloc in the case of the M1) for loading. Heck you can even build a lever action scout (pistol or rifle caliber).
The AR is a great all round platform. There are tons of accessories and configuring an AR with both optic and back up irons is simple. The drawback tends to be cost. It will run over $1k by the time that you are finished. But it is an adaptable system and your base rifle doesn't need to cost that much. You can go with 1:9, 1:8, or 1:7 twist barrels which gives you the ability to handle projectiles up to at least 80gr in single load (ie. they will not fit in the magazine as their overall length is too long). A flattop a4 with removable rear sight or carry handle gives you the same sighting system as an ironsighted AR.
The only issue that I see with the Mossberg MVP is that you are stuck with a 1:9 twist barrel. This will likely limit you to 69gr and smaller projectiles but sometimes a 1:9 will handle 75's pretty well too. In .223, I believe that 75's and 77's are the way to go in a mag fed rifle that will handle them. They offer dramatically better performance than 55gr or 62gr and and are readily capable of 700 yard (and further) accuracy.
If you are satisfied with 1:9 and your primary use is within 500 yards, the model that I would look at is the MVP Patrol. It is short and handy. I do not like the sights (rear open sight and front fiber optic bead) but I believe that they are acceptable.
I'll agree with jmdavis...I think the Ruger Scout would be the ticket. I have a Leupold Scout Scope mounted on mine and my wife loves to shoot it. It comes with some stock spacers so you can adjust the length a bit.
Mission drives the equipment. Define what you want to do with the rifle and then figure out what you need.
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 01:06:27 AMSlim's right as usual.
I can't wait till my wife sees this!
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 01:06:27 AMWonder if he would let me shot it sometime??? :cool2:
If you even hint to Mudcat that you'd like to maybe possibly look at the rifle he'll have you a mag loaded and ready to go before you finish your sentence. He's that cool a guy. Just for FYI he had it outfitted with the Nikon P-223 scope.
He doesn't indulge in the sweet stuff like I do but he does like a fine cigar. :cool2:
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 01:06:27 AMAny suggestions on a semi auto?
AR-15 in M-4 configuration. You may not have liked it at first, but it'll grow on you. As others have implied, "It's America's Rifle."
The other choices are too big and too heavy. Sure, it's not too much to carry from the car to the firing line. But to carry 500 yards and back several times a day? And to carry the ammo too? The difference in weight between the .223 and .308 is your binoculars AND your water. Plus, there's absolutely no reason a Rifleman "needs" something bigger than a .223. All that talk about big heavy bullets and shooting out past 500 isn't what we do. Rack grade rifle, surplus ball - and SKILLS! - to make hits at 500.
For your first centerfire I'd recommend buying an entry-level milspec AR - and buy it used. Check the INGO forums or Armslist in your area to find a decent deal on one. There's no reason you should pay any more than $800 for one right now. Search a little and wheel and deal and you can probably get one for less than that. Pick up a few mags, maybe a Nikon P-223 (you'll like that scope) and you're all set. Under $1000 and ready for Atterbury next time. Huzzah!
Here's an offbeat suggestion: The FAL.
It was once known as the right arm of the free world. It is infamously reliable. I know of one that is still quite functional after having been buried, drowned and run 15,000 rounds through it without being cleaned. DSA makes them with modern sights, folding stocks, scope mounts, and other goodies.
And it's full of 30-caliber goodness.
Rayne, I feel like you're a bolt-gunner at heart. You spent the weekend with an AR - if you're not in love after that, it's not the rifle for you. I love the suggestion of Mudcat's Mossberg. I spent some time admiring it last I was at Evansville myself.
If you want to try the Ruger Gunsite Scout to compare the Mossberg to a .308, you're welcome to borrow mine. 10 round removable mags. Peep sight. I don't know when I'll run into you again, but I'm willing to pass it around the cadre until it ends up with you. I trust you, and it's not like I ever have time to shoot it, anyway. ;D The stock sights are a little wanky, but nothing you can't handle with a hex wrench and a data book. ;)
Yep, you can't get anything much more user friendly than an AR. I never wanted a black rifle either till I actually put some time into them, now we have a house full and want more! :)....O.L.
Quote from: oladcock on June 19, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
Yep, you can't get anything much more user friendly than an AR. I never wanted a black rifle either till I actually put some time into them, now we have a house full and want more! :)....O.L.
And this from a man that holds records with wooden longbows... ;D
I've always been a big fan of the Ma Deuce...
I scored a 57,486 on my last AQT with mine. O0
What ever you do don't buy an AR!
You'll end up liking it too much and sooner or later you'll have extra rifles parts and pieces coming out your nose.... And you'll be starting the next build before you finish your last one...
You'll start with a standard A2 or M4 configuration. Well then, you'll want an A1, an A4... Then of course you need to get the SPR going then the SBR. Then you'll probably want to build the lightest AR you possibly can, as well as the heaviest long range rifle you can afford. Next thing you know, you'll decide there certainly are circumstances where that 7.62 can come in handy. Then you'll be jumping into the AR-10 style platforms!
I've gotta admit, while I always thought they were cool - I wasn't convinced on the AR platform until I started to see 'em left and right on the line. While I've encountered plenty of shooters with AR malfs on the line. In the end it always boiled down to:
1) Ammo choice - Some do not like wolf.
2) User error - Usually this is number 1 in any malf scenario, however the AR is stupid easy.
3) Improper configuration and/or modified op system - Essentially a mixture of user/design error - You get that sometimes when you deviate from the original design.
All that being said - I've been an M14 guy since before I ever shot a gun... Not exactly sure when/where I decided that it was the best dang rifle ever designed, but it happened and when I finally got mine and shot it for the first time my suspicion was confirmed. M1a - All the way!
+1 on the AR platform I shoot an A2 ArmaLite NM for High Power competition. I love wood guns and have an M1A (civilian M14), M1 Garand, 1903A3 & A4, Mosin, 6.5 Swede and shoot them in CMP military matches. The M1A is the more accurate of the semi-auto wood guns I but they are more expensive to shoot AND much harder to make/keep as accurate as the AR-15 platform. That's why the AR took over as THE rifle preferred for high power.
Simple:
One of each O0
:---
Hey, Rayne!
Any of this helping?
;D
So, a little history on the loaner rifle Rayne used. It started life as a regular old Colt A2 20" H-bar. I've only done a few mods to it. At first, only a PRS stock, an RRA NM large pin trigger & a YHM free float tube with a sling stud. It's pretty heavy, pretty steady but the PRS doesn't have the length of pull adjustment range of a carbine stock. I used it at a KD back when they were scored for points and it shot really well using MFS steel case ammo. Shortly after that I found a stripped Colt A4 upper and mounted the Trijicon TR-20.
I've had it since ~1994 and put thousands of rounds through it. It's still a great shooter.
Rayne, you're welcome to try the 14.5" Noveske carbine next time. Light, easily adjusted to fit you and just as rock solid reliable as the Colt.
:)
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 01:06:27 AM
I thought he had a savage? Slim's right as usual.
Wonder if he would let me shot it sometime??? :cool2:
Any suggestions on a semi auto?
Absolutely you can shoot it sometime. I think I offered it to you for the KD event. :cool2: I absolutely love the rifle I like the bolt actions always have the MVP predator is light agile very comfortable to shoot all day, AR magazines. Only drawback is that it does not have iron sights, myself I can live with that. I am not a fan of the heavier varmint model, we have one of those in the household too. It just adds unneeded weight and bulk and a weird feeling stock that doesn't work for me with a sling.
Ruger Scout could be nice too, but the mags cost so much and aren't readily available. I am really not much on the .308 myself. But it is a nice compact little rifle that shoots well.
Anytime you're ready to try it out just let me know. It has been putting the hurt on the ground hogs lately.
Without knowing what the mission is, it is really difficult to recommend any rifle over any other. Varminting needs are entirely different than hunting large game than hunting small game than target shooting than self defense. Defining the mission should be considered a necessary first step. What is the tolerance to recoil? If recoil averse, then a whole bunch also go away. If needing more than 5 rounds to be readily available, then bolt actions start to drop out of consideration. If needing ranges beyond 350 yards with accuracy, though, then bolt actions may be fine. What are the planned distances that the rifle will be carried? Heavy is not good if carried long distances.
Also, there are minimum caliber requirements for hunting large game dependent on local laws, that differ from state to state.
M1 Garand is fine for CMP/NRA, but FMJ available from CMP isn't allowed for hunting most animals. If you were planning to use it for hunting, then reloading/hand loading would need to be in your future, too, if you select an M1 Garand.
Most authors recommend consideration of 6 or 7 rifle types for a flexible battery suitable for a wide range of purposes. (Boston's Gun Bible, etc.)
If close quarter defense is the mission, though, then an AR-15 would likely be good. If interested in 600 yd. or greater ranges, though, an AR-15 won't likely meet the requirement. Ditto for most semi-autos. They are generally not suitable for longer ranges.
The average SKS is OK for 3-4 MOA. The average AK-47 is OK for 6 MOA or slightly worse. The average AR-15 is ok for 2 MOA. The average lever action 30-30 is good for 4 MOA.
The average 30-30 lever action is ok for 6 or 7 rounds for use up to 150 yards. And, it's light and easy to carry.
Be sure to consider the ammo availability and cost.
Determine the mission first, and the choices will start to narrow down.
~
FWIW,
I think an M1A1, or back to the AR platform in a .308 or .223.
Not a bad platform at all just foreighn to you! ..:..
I will NOT become a collector. **) This is the conclusion I came to:
AR in 22LR, 223 and 308 (with adjustable stocks so they fit me, the wife and kids) :---
in pistol: Ruger LCP-380 auto (very small) Glock 34-9mm (perfection) and Springfield 1911-45acp (I like it's crisp light trigger, tighter slide tolerance and accuracy) :~
IMO
A half dozen is a collection,Sir,
And probably an Arsonal to the feds. ..:..
A properly setup .223 shooting 69-77 gr bullets can accurately engage targets at ranges of 700 yards with a +65% first hit rate; if the shooter is trained and willing to try. This was proven at the first Military-seed back in 2009 when a group of artillery men were retasked and Boltgun71 ran them through a week long course firing a total of 350 rounds per man. I believe that total included 40 rounds for qual or alt C qual. They were using M4's (14.5 inch barrel) with ACOGS.
500 and 600 is absolutely doable with iron sights on targets such as the HP target, the Larue target and 18 inch steel gongs.
My point in bringing this up is to point out that a good bolt or semi-auto .223 has far more than a 400 yard effective range in the hands of someone trained to take advantage of it. You already have the basics of that training. All you lack is the experience. Perhaps at a later Atterbury event the cadre can be convinced to take the shooting out to 500 or even 600 if it is available. You can also look for midrange events called 3x600 which is 3-20 shot matches at 600 yards with 2 or more sighters available per match.
Regardless of rifle choice, don't sell yourself or your basic knowledge short.
Good luck.
Affirmative. This is a common setup for mid-range (600-yard) shooting with heavy-barreled ARs. In fact, from 600, the in-crowd hand-loads cartridges with 80-grain bullets. They're so long, they have to be loaded singly into the chamber.
tk
Quote from: jmdavis on June 20, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
A properly setup .223 shooting 69-77 gr bullets can accurately engage targets at ranges of 700 yards with a +65% first hit rate; if the shooter is trained and willing to try. This was proven at the first Military-seed back in 2009 when a group of artillery men were retasked and Boltgun71 ran them through a week long course firing a total of 350 rounds per man. I believe that total included 40 rounds for qual or alt C qual. They were using M4's (14.5 inch barrel) with ACOGS.
500 and 600 is absolutely doable with iron sights on targets such as the HP target, the Larue target and 18 inch steel gongs.
My point in bringing this up is to point out that a good bolt or semi-auto .223 has far more than a 400 yard effective range in the hands of someone trained to take advantage of it. You already have the basics of that training. All you lack is the experience. Perhaps at a later Atterbury event the cadre can be convinced to take the shooting out to 500 or even 600 if it is available. You can also look for midrange events called 3x600 which is 3-20 shot matches at 600 yards with 2 or more sighters available per match.
Regardless of rifle choice, don't sell yourself or your basic knowledge short.
Good luck.
I forgot to mention that those 700 yard hits were with M855 62gr as well. 69 should do better in a a 1:9 barrel.
A 16" 300 AAC Blackout / AR-15 might interest you. 30 cal bullet that can easily go that distance and isn't as prone to getting blown off course. The ammo is hard to find right now though. The best part about an AR is swapping uppers. .22 upper for a 25 yard 'seed, .458 SOCOM upper for legal deer hunting in Indiana, 5.56mm for tyrants, etc... :cool2:
My go to rifle if I could only carry one is my 20" HB AR-15 A3 with detachable handle and fixed stock. I'll add an Aimpoint PRO when I get some change.
Quote from: Hop on June 20, 2013, 05:11:08 PM
A 16" 300 AAC Blackout / AR-15 might interest you.
Rayne, the auto AR at your first shoot was a 300 AAC Blackout - the one I was doing a challenge against. It is another great choice for someone who knows how to load their own. Oh, wait, like you do already!
~
Quote from: Rayne on June 20, 2013, 08:13:12 PM
You mean jrainw's rifle?
This one:
Suppressed 300 Blackout M16 vs Suppressed 22 Cricket at 200 Yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJMatOOnvc)
I have a 16" 300 Blackout AR as my "fighting or door kicking" rifle It is a great carbine and very effective. I have shot it out to 500 yards and yes it works but when you get out past 350 you had better be good at range estimation. Lots of drop to dial in especially with the 147 gran M80s with the 110 grain it is not as bad. I run a red dot on mine and it is not the greatest for dialing elevation with.
When I think of going to do KD or out to 500 yards it is not my first choice, my MVP is my first choice now because I enjoy shooting bolt action rifles and a very close second in my Garand. The .223 is cheaper to shoot and cheaper means more practice which means more fun.
I'm a'thinkin' this might call for an "everyone show up with their centerfire rifles so Rayne can try it" range day. ;)
Quote from: AuntieBellum on June 20, 2013, 11:05:11 PM
I'm a'thinkin' this might call for an "everyone show up with their centerfire rifles so Rayne can try it" range day. ;)
Easy to do on an instructor day.
What I have noticed with the longer barrel on the MVP Varmit compared to the shorter barreled .223 like the mini 14 is no to very little muzle flash and it is noticably quieter.
Quote from: techres on June 20, 2013, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: AuntieBellum on June 20, 2013, 11:05:11 PM
I'm a'thinkin' this might call for an "everyone show up with their centerfire rifles so Rayne can try it" range day. ;)
Easy to do on an instructor day.
Informal shoot at my house in the winter?
~
Quote from: 42769vette on June 21, 2013, 09:34:31 AM
Informal shoot at my house in the winter?
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! ^This^
(Where's the emoticon for the guy hopping up and down in eager anticipation like he has to pee?)
I would love to have a day where Instructors (and generous range hosts :) )get together, bring rifles for other people to try (why not pistols, too, if the venue will support it?) and we just have session of, "Hey, I've heard and read about these but have never had the chance to handle one let alone shoot it."
brian
:( could I come out to play too or do I need a funny colored hat. :-\
Quote from: Hop on June 21, 2013, 01:27:30 PM
:( could I come out to play too or do I need a funny colored hat. :-\
You have heard the history enough time can probably do it yourself so I vote for the funny colored hat. although I think I look pretty dang good in Red #)
A good buddy just listed the following stuff for sale. If you want to try an AR platform that is...
I guess let me know if you want pictures. He didn't list a price, just best offer. He needs some new machine tools to get some new products into productions. He keeps everything in near new conditions.
I haven't seen if there's a 4 sale area here yet. I'll take a quick look and remove this if it's breaking a rule.
(1) HK 5.56 new
(1) Elcan DR 1.4x6 Scope
(1) ATN PS40-4 Night Vison
(1) Daniel Defense M4 v3 6.8 spc mint
(11) PRI6.8 mags
(2500) Rem, Hornaday 6.8 ammo
~
Quote from: Rayne on June 21, 2013, 04:32:39 PM
Have you tried a green one on yet? :cool2:
So Rayne agrees to take the orange if Brown takes the green? Sounds like a win-win to me.
~
Nah. I collected that green hat from the Nashville shoot middle last september.
so. I have the GH and a VERY slightly used orange hat all ready for ya ~~:)
Quote from: Rayne on June 21, 2013, 05:26:45 PM
Quote from: techres on June 21, 2013, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: Rayne on June 21, 2013, 04:32:39 PM
Have you tried a green one on yet? :cool2:
So Rayne agrees to take the orange if Brown takes the green? Sounds like a win-win to me.
I believe he has to earn his green hat and I haven't earned my orange one either. I'm just wondering how far off he is from getting that green hat. I remember him being an orange hat last year.
Yeah Rayne Brown is green he progress checked me into my red so where you gonna sighn up for your first shoot as orange :pop:
Plus if you took that orange hat you could come to atterbury instructor shoot and try out whatever you decide :). It's in a few weeks! Or you could show up out there and try lots of different set ups!
~
Quote from: Slow2Speak on June 21, 2013, 08:52:16 PM
Yeah Rayne Brown is green he progress checked me into my red so where you gonna sighn up for your first shoot as orange :pop:
I see what you did there ;)
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 12:16:21 AM
I'll let you know, I'm not a big fan of the AR platform, probably due to the fact I'm not that familar with them. I'd prefer semi auto, but do like bolt guns quiet a bit. I definately want an external magazine that can hold at least 10 rounds so I can use it in KD appleseeds.
My wife BlueFeather tried many of the MBR platforms in various calibers and prefered the AR hands down. Her first Expert score was shot with an AR at her second Appleseed. Great ergos, easy to shoot, user friendly, fast to reload under time constraints especially if under stress and super accurate.
The AR can be custom tailored to fit you. Something most MBR's do not lend themselves to.
I am not talking about tacti-cool bling type stuff, but all the variations of the AR style.
Once you are
"familar" with them you may decide you like it.
They are super easy to score Expert on the KD AQT. See our thread on BSZ and AR's here:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=36211.0;topicseen
Quote from: TaosGlock on June 22, 2013, 09:32:38 PM
Quote from: Rayne on June 19, 2013, 12:16:21 AM
I'll let you know, I'm not a big fan of the AR platform, probably due to the fact I'm not that familar with them. I'd prefer semi auto, but do like bolt guns quiet a bit. I definately want an external magazine that can hold at least 10 rounds so I can use it in KD appleseeds.
My wife BlueFeather tried many of the MBR platforms in various calibers and prefered the AR hands down. Her first Expert score was shot with an AR at her second Appleseed. Great ergos, easy to shoot, user friendly, fast to reload under time constraints especially if under stress and super accurate.
The AR can be custom tailored to fit you. Something most MBR's do not lend themselves to.
I am not talking about tacti-cool bling type stuff, but all the variations of the AR style.
Once you are "familar" with them you may decide you like it.
They are super easy to score Expert on the KD AQT. See our thread on BSZ and AR's here:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=36211.0;topicseen
O0 O0 O0 O0