Hello,
I'm an RWVA member -- although not yet a rifleman -- and had a few questions if anyone has a moment.
(1) How high should I post my 27 meter practice targets?
(2) Is there such thing as the rare bird who shoots better from the prone without a sling? I noticed the other day (and I had zeroed) that from the prone, I felt locked in, NPOA seemed rcok solid, shot call seemed right, breathing was pretty fair and trigger control/follow was solid. In other words, everything felt great. Got downrange and checked my 400m simualted targets. All about 3" right? Friend suggested I might be locking myself in too tight and to loosen up a little on the sling. Anyone have a thought?
(3) When moving down from the 100 to 200, 300 and 400m simulated targets, how many elevation clicks do most of y'all make (I'm shooting a Nikon set on 4x). Or, put another way, for which target do you set your initial zero?
Thank you.
Mark
Carbondale, IL
I'm from Michigan but I grew up in Central Illinois (Sullivan) so I'll take a crack at these:
1) I like to post my 25M targets near the bottom of the backer board. This seems to work well, especially from prone
2) Possibly...but I've yet to see them. In the situation you describe, if your position was good, you were using the 6 steps and your rifle was sighted in...you most likely WERE shooting to your NPOA...but your NPOA wasn't necessarily aligned with your intended point of impact. Are you POSITIVE you really had it?
3) If you are shooting with a scope, using center of target hold, using a simulated distance target (versus actually shooting at those distances) there should be NO come ups required. Hold center of target for each distance.
Quote from: MGF on February 07, 2013, 09:22:48 PM
Hello,
I'm an RWVA member -- although not yet a rifleman -- and had a few questions if anyone has a moment.
(1) How high should I post my 27 meter practice targets?
(2) Is there such thing as the rare bird who shoots better from the prone without a sling? I noticed the other day (and I had zeroed) that from the prone, I felt locked in, NPOA seemed rcok solid, shot call seemed right, breathing was pretty fair and trigger control/follow was solid. In other words, everything felt great. Got downrange and checked my 400m simualted targets. All about 3" right? Friend suggested I might be locking myself in too tight and to loosen up a little on the sling. Anyone have a thought?
(3) When moving down from the 100 to 200, 300 and 400m simulated targets, how many elevation clicks do most of y'all make (I'm shooting a Nikon set on 4x). Or, put another way, for which target do you set your initial zero?
Thank you.
Mark
Carbondale, IL
Hi Mark,
I'll take a stab
1. I'd recommend about 12-18" off the ground. If indoor dry firing, bottom of the target about the height of an electrical socket. Don't worry too much about that though it should not matter that much as long as it is natural and the range conditions (berm, backer, etc) will control the height to some extent.
2. I'm sure there is that type of rare bird (it would be very rare though) who does better with no sling, but I would take a sling any day in prone, it improves your accuracy by about 20%. Give it a chance. Practice with it and you will be comfortable with it very quickly. Don't let it become a mental block (thinking that it is a hinderance). IMO there is no such thing as locking in too tight because of using a sling. Yes it can be too tight on the arm (cutting circulation or transferring the pulse) and too short, but a good firm sling will improve every shot. I would consider loosing the sling a little if it is bothering you long before ditching it.
3. Are you talking of moving between stage 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the AQT (moving down from the 100 to 200, 300 and 400m simulated targets)? If so do not change elevation (especially with optics). You may be way over thinking that. You will never need to change elevation once zero's at the 25M line of an Appleseed.
Most important, relax, and practice tons with dry fire, in all the positions and I am sure you will do just fine! If you have attended an Appleseed before remember everything you have learned and repeat the 6 steps while practicing until they are second nature.
Thanks.
Am dry firing quit a bit.
In timed live-fire at the Quick & Dirty AQTs, I'm running right around 190 at the moment. Trying to get over that hump.
Find I actually prefer kneeling to sitting. I can assume that position faster and hit just as well.
In any case, progress has been made, and I'm sure more is possible if I stay with it.
Thanks again.
Mark,
The one thing you didn't tell us was your group size. This will tell us about your NPOA. And you have received some good advice above. However, your sling can be too tight. If so that could cause some canting. The sling should be SNUG, not tight. And it should be snug enough that you can TOTALLY relax that support arm. And your sling and arm should form a good triangle for support. If your loop sling is so tight in your armpit that it causes pain, insert a hard sponge or pad of some kind between your inner arm and the sling. What it appears that you must do is move your body to put your NPOA onto the target. And I prefer the target as low as possible to the ground, however, this isn't always possible.
And even with iron sights, I would aim for the center of the target. There are come ups you could use on the AQT if you're using the 6:00 hold, but you don't generally have time with most rifles to use these. And they have no relationship to come ups at the actual distances.
Thank you. Mondays are generally my range day, but I have a committment this coming Monday. ASAP, I will make said adjustments and see how it goes.
Group sizes have been quite acceptable, IMO. If I can't throw a nickel or guarter over a 3-shot group, I generally know what I did to cause the flyer.
Not to worry...not down, just still learning!
Mark,
If I may be so bold. You need to spend a weekend with us. It's one thing to get some advice via a forum but having an instructor with you verifying your position, your steady hold factors, showing you the correct sling use, teaching you how to read your target. We even perform exercises to see if you truly have verified your NPOA is on target...In other word is better to see it, touch it and feel it as compared to read about it. You may think you are doing it right but most often without proper instruction via face to face is usually isn't so.
Even if you can only spare one day...make it a Saturday...That is where the bulk of the instruction takes place.
Come on out. We'll make room for you and would be happy to have you. O0
.
Thanks,
Karl
Mark - Remember @ Sparta how your sling was just a little too tight?
Try using DonDs suggestion with the dry sponge.
Also - I let that # rule my life for 3 Appleseeds until I realized that the
# might make a Patch, but it's the Persistance that creates Rifleman.
If you want to get back to AS before Sparta/Marion , KY and IN have weekends
Up before - see if there are any closer!
Don't forget to bring a Friend or two
^:)^
Racine WI has a shoot Feb 23-24 also, We would be happy to help!
Mark,
It's possible we have all missed the most obvious clue. If everything seems as good as you say, and your groups are good, do you just need to change your sights to put the POI onto the target? How good was your POI on the other targets? Was it also to the right?
No, sir. I zeroed on 1" squares from my rolled up matt off the bench before I got started. Put three tight ones into the black a couple times before I got rolling on the AQT targets.
Even standing, I'd say I could throw and Eisenhower dollar over most of my groups. The kneeling and the better standing groups, maybe a Kennedy half-dollar. Slow-fire, I could really tighten 'em up. I guess the nice thing is I had a good day on trigger control and follow through. Waiting for that reset nicely ... slow is smooth and smooth is fast. :)
The last effort of the day was simulated 400m targets from prone w/cuff sling. Those were strung out horizontally to the right, but not badly grouped at all. Usually, a couple were touching each other. I think it was something with my use of the sling or the elbow/body position. My personal guess is I just need to work on it. Everything felt REALLY good by the end of the day, that's why the end-of-day targets bummed me out just a bit. I was all ready to pronounce my NPA rocklike and myself ready. How naive of me. :slap:
It's ultimately not a biggie; I'll get it worked out. Might have done it the other day, but twilight was descending. Still had to police my area and lock the gate. Going to a course this weekend and then to see mom. Be back at the range next weekend. No big worries. Going to persevere until I notch that 210!
Thank you all for the tips, patience and kindness!
Mark,
What kind of rifle are you shooting? Is your POI shifting depending on the tension of your sling?
UL
Re first Q, a S&W M&P 15-22 with a Nikon 3-9x by 32 Postaff scope set on 4x. Nikon Z rings. It's on their solid and zeroed pretty well. I've put pasters up at 25m and gotten 1/2" groups from sandbags with both both Rem's Golden Bullet and the CCI Mini Mag "Troy" "Choot em" loads.
Re Second Q, that is sort of what I hoped to find out, and I now believe it might be one of the things thing I have to identify.
I'll check the zero again, then do some more work from prone. Standing and kneeling aren't giving me many problems.
Thanks!
Re loads, BTW, right now around here, we're buying whatever we can find. Long droughts between trucks.
I hit about 4 towns today and managed to round up 800 rounds of .22LR and 600 rounds of 9mm ball (practice ammo). That was it. Not my checkbook topping out...mercharnts who do get things in are limiting purchase to one or two boxes per customer. Big box guys (Wally, Rural King) are dead flat out. Lots of empty shelf space.
I got my rounds today at 3 different gun shops.
It's really, really dry on the ammo situation here.
Try zeroing prone on the little targets.
If you then hit left on all the other stages, you have a different zero in prone... at least on targets that are hard to see.
Quote from: kDan on February 08, 2013, 07:41:15 PM
Try zeroing prone on the little targets.
If you then hit left on all the other stages, you have a different zero in prone... at least on targets that are hard to see.
+1
If your cheek weld is even slightly different between bench and prone, it'll throw you off on your zero. I tend to get a 2-3 MOA shift between the two myself, so if I'm going to shoot positions, I zero in prone, not off the bench.
MGF-
I like to have my AQT's posted about half way up (or down). I have not ever seen anyone do better without a sling. Sometimes it seems fine, but it is not very constant, or reliable. I would second Mutti's idea, a dry sponge really helps.
Good job on dry practicing it will really help out on the range. I also admire your persistence. You are on the right track.
Hope to see you at another shoot soon.
RnR :---
Thanks; I do not give up easily. I've been known to say, "Can't? Really?"
I think next time out, I'll go right to prone and the little targets. Found some practice rounds in a heavy-duty ammo scavenger hunt on Friday. I'm good to go.
Karl, you are definitely correct. Unfortunately, Saturday is a work day for me. Only got so many vacation days to burn. Been using a lot of them for my NRA instructor courses. I have a couple good instructor/rifleman near me. When the weather gets a tad less wet here, I'll recruit one to come out and coach me for a morning. Thanks for the kind offer, though.
Things are just a tad off. There's been progress. With my bipod down on my actual AR, I'm hammering 'em pretty good at 100 (max at my local range). Pistol shooting has been solid. Put up a 90 at trap the other day and hadn't shot it in eons. All in all, having fun.
You guys are awesome. Keep up the good work.
Quote from: MGF on February 08, 2013, 07:25:23 PM
...a S&W M&P 15-22...
I have read somewhere (not sure if it was here or S&W forum) that too much tension on the sling when using a 15-22 can affect the poi. The way the handguard, barrel, and upper receiver attach, the tension could tweak things slightly. I have used a 15-22 as well and didn't have my poi change, but others have mentioned it as being a possible issue, specifically with a lot of sling tension.
I would have to go with what Nero said. Take it off the bench and down to prone.
Might make all the difference in the world.
Casper
Generally Ammo testing is done from the bench. High Power shooters do this, benchrest shooters do it, silhouette shooters do it, international shooters do it, pistol shooters do it. The whole point is to eliminate variables oither than ammunition and a good bench set up or machine rest does exactly that.
Once you have determined your ammo, then test in positions. with the 15/22 you really want to make sure that your snug sling is not causing the barrel to flex. This can and does happen and will move your point of impact. It may be what you are seeing. Things to help you notice a sling that is too tight include forced cant to the rifle, shoulder pain, firing shoulder scrunched back or your support hand going numb during normal stages of fire. If someone calling the line does something stupid like leave people in prep for 10 minutes, just relax your position and bring the rifle out of your shoulder without moving your support elbow. When you are used to it, you should be able to fall asleep in prone without any significant numbness to your support hand.
For zero, listen to Kdan. Zero on the smallest targets, it brings much better results than zeroing on squares or other shapes. From your description of group sizes you know what a good zero should look like.
Good luck and keep at it.
Mike
Thanks. Have Monday and Tuesday off. Weather permitting, I'll get to range and go straight to prone and zero on the little targets.
Quote from: MGF on February 10, 2013, 04:47:33 PM
Thanks. Have Monday and Tuesday off. Weather permitting, I'll get to range and go straight to prone and zero on the little targets.
Its Wednesday! Any update?
NN
Travel kept range time last week limited to my NRA instructor course. Coursework and test no problem. Had the shoot-in aced. Even with iron sights, it's a breeze compared to Appleseed. So, I'm now certified for home firearm safety, basic pistol, basic shotgun and basic rifle. Also an RSO.
Now, on to the more important and more difficult stuff. Nice day here, nearly 50, although a little windy. Got a few hours in on Appleseed targets. After remounting my scope, zeroed from prone on the little guys (400m simulated) and then got to work.
Problem 1: Had completely forgotten how to make a cuff sling. :slap: So, got a decent hasty going and worked with that. Hey, wasn't going to waste a perfectly nice day with a range to myself! Just worked on the little dudes from prone, slow fire.
Worked out problem 2: Did find that when I got to tight with the sling, even with a hasty, I was pulling right. Also found that I shoot that rifle better with my left (lead) hand extended and fairly relaxed. If I bring it back to far, my forearm touches the mag, and I actually push a little right. After getting that out of the way, worked on my NPA a lot. Closed and reopened eyes on every target to see if I was keeping a good NPA, and made adjustments with elbows and body. Made myself NOT muscle up on the rifle.
Groups did tighten down from 50/50 inside the scoring areas to all in the scoring areas, but best I could manage today was an 80 of 100 possible points. I'm by no means there yet, but it wasn't a decent afternoon's work. Obviously gained some familiarity with me and the rifle. NPA and trigger control both felt pretty good. Breathing still needs work. I did manage to NOT get terribly frustrated, just came back to the next shot and tried to get that sharp but relaxed concentration going where the only thing that matters is the sight picture and breaking the shot.
I'll work more on position and mag changes later. Today was just about fundamentals. I think it will get better from the prone once I get the cuff sling mastered and get some more work in. I already know I can do fairly decent on Stage 1 standing and Stage 2 kneeling (I find it easier than sitting for some reason). So I think Stage 3 and Stage 4 are where the work should go for now. I may tinker during this week's dry fire with moving the scope up or back one on notch on the rail. Found today my eye relief got screwed up fairly easily. Oddly enough, I worked that out by moving head back on the stock a bit and keeping and upright head with a firm cheek weld. Also found I do a little better when I reach under with my lead hand and actually push that buttstock a little higher and firmer into the pocket.
Kind of a strange day, -- #) -- but it was eventful and the results trended toward the better as I pressed on. I closed it out with that 80/100, cased my rifle and ran a half-dozen mags through my Sig 9mm. After shooting at those little dudes with a .22 at 27m, shooting CQB pistol at 7 and 12 yards felt like a breeze. Didn't work terribly hard there. Just did some double-taps and failure-to-stop drills. Everything was solid in those departments, so I policed my area, locked the gate behind me and headed for dinner feeling pretty decent.
Don't know if I'll be able to make rifleman in April or not, but I guess that's not really the point right now. The point, I guess, is getting these rifle skills integrated. I'm OK with today's effort. It's a start. Looks like almost certain rain here tomorrow, so it will be dry-fire until next weekend.