Hello everyone, glad that I found you folks!
I am looking to attend my first AS shoot in Dallas in early 2012. I have seen conflicting information as to whether we should use standard iron sights or a scope for the shooting events. Any clarification that can be provided is greatly appreciated. I want to make sure I have all of my gear in order well in advance of the event.
Thanks,
ED
Welcome to appleseed
If you are getting a little long in the tooth and gray haired, chances are you vision will give you problems at appleseed, a scope is a great help.
Bottom line is run what you brung.
Being able to move your great groups on to the target is key. If you are using a Ruger 10/22 or MArlin 795 might I suggest highly adjustable sights.
http://www.tech-sights.com/
These sights are very very adjustable to the precision shooting we teach. While we do maintain the "run what ya brung" concept, these will allow you to shoot with greater precision.
Mark, Justin:
Thank you very much for the quick responses. I have a Ruger 10/22 with factory sights, but plan on upgrading to either the Tech-Sights or a scope.
Luckily for me, I can still see long distances quite accurately, but it is the less than 3 feet/up close and personal look that is giving me trouble these days. ;D
Thanks.
ED
Quote from: friscotxkid on January 02, 2012, 10:49:44 AM
Luckily for me, I can still see long distances quite accurately, but it is the less than 3 feet/up close and personal look that is giving me trouble these days. ;D
Ed,
When using iron sights, you should focus on the front sight which is usually less than 3 feet away.
I have astigmatism in my right eye, my shooting eye, so I used an inexpensive scope when I shot my rifleman score. I also am unable to focus without corrective lenses within 3 feet. I plan on getting Tech-Sights and use shatter-proof glasses to correct my vision so I can focus on the front blade of my sights. For me this makes it impossible to focus on the target when I am wearing glasses, but you aren't supposed to focus on the target anyway. (Step 4 of the 6 steps of firing a shot.)
- ShadowMan
Shadowman,
Good information and thanks for sharing. I do tend to notice that the sights can seem a bit blurry to me at times.
Do you have any recommendations on the type of scope that is a good fit for a Ruger 10/22? Not necessarily the brand, but magnification and size of aperture, etc.?
ED
Heh - I went to the store and spent less than $30.00 for a 4x rimfire/air rifle scope. You really don't need anything high power. It adjusts without tools and it came with mounts that attached to my 10/22 rail. The packaging said the scope could withstand the shock of rimfire recoil and would keep its adjustment.
Doesn't need to be fancy, just functional.
- ShadowMan
perfect, thanks.
^^ What he said. For a 10/22, take about $60-$100 with you to the gun store (or online if you must) and pick up whatever looks like it'll work for you. Be sure you can mount it securely! That's more important that the glass itself.
There's no reason to spend more than that on a scope until you've been shooting for a while and know exactly what you want to get out of it.
Hello,
From my experience at Appleseed, 10/22s can be a little scope-unfriendly for Appleseed. Scopes tend to mount too far back and too high, causing shooters problems with eye relief and cheek weld.
I've got different eye problems than do you (bad astigmatism, near sighted), and eventually had to mount a scope to shoot well. But it is far easier to learn to shoot on irons than a scope, and I found the year or so that I struggled with irons to have been invaluable.
Scopes don't help you shoot, they help you see, and sometimes seeing better makes shooting well a lot more difficult.
If it were me, I would bring my stock Ruger to the shoot, and talk to the shoot boss and use some of the loaners to see if Tech Sights or what sort of scopes will work best for you. If you're talking about the Jan shoot at Quail Creek, I will be working it, and will have several loaners with different sighting systems (scope, irons), and I'm sure there will be others.
Personally, I'm not so keen on the cheap solutions. My main shooting rifle is my Ruger 10/22 (which started out as a $220 special at Wally World, to which I added Tech Sights for my first Appleseed). Over the past couple of years I've spent some money making it better (including a decent 4x fixed focal length scope, new stock, new barrel, new trigger, ...), and currently it can shoot as well as I can, which means it is my main go to rifle for keeping skills current. It shoots 10X the round count of any of my other rifles (and just shot through over 500 rounds this past weekend helping me work through some issues in the standing position). This is my rifle. There are many just like it, but this one is mine.
From my personal experience and from what I've seen from shooters on the line, there are some aspects to marksmanship that are significantly harder to learn on a scope than on iron sights. If there is any way you can make iron sights work, I think you would probably be way ahead mastering the fundamentals using them, and then moving to a scope to compensate for the visual deficits.
All right, I've resisted the urge to reply up to now. So here is my take on the subject. I qualified with a riflemans score on my first Appleseed weekend. I was shooting my colt AR15 with a 5 power scope. I have shot at every Appleseed that we host here and have always shot a riflemans score. There are two main issues to overcome with a scope. The first is focusing your mind to keep your eyes on the crosshairs of the scope. Since you can see the target easier, your eyes will be drawn to the target. The second problem is that everyone I know (except me) will sight in a scope with the crosshairs on the center of the target. Even Appleseed teaches this. What I do is I sight my scope so that the bullet will place in the upper right corner of the crosshair. Maybe an eighth to a quarter inch. When you cover a 400 yd target with the crosshair you can't see the target so you fuss the shot. I use the crosshairs to frame the target, keeping my eyes on the crosshairs and the shot places in the #5 (center). Now, having said all of that, my new project is to shoot with tech sights. I have recently made a 10/22 with the m1 conversion and tech sights. I was amazed that I could see the target this way. But it's because of the peep sights. My vote is for the tech sights, but if you use a scope you might consider my approach. BTW using my AR on the kd range at 500 yds, 18 out of 20 hits.
~Two Wolves
I too can't focus at close distance but cheap 1.5 pwr reading glasses are all I need to focus on the front sight. I too shot my rifleman score with a scoped 10-22, took the orange hat and went to Tech-Sights. No problems shooting high expert scores with either. Many find it odd but I see no difference in my groups between irons and scopes, why should there be? A scope doesn't make you any steadier, a wiggle is a wiggle. Scopes make target detection easier but doesn't help you hit it! :)
FloydF, "From my experience at Appleseed, 10/22s can be a little scope-unfriendly for Appleseed. Scopes tend to mount too far back and too high, causing shooters problems with eye relief and cheek weld."
Yep, see that all the time, scopes typically need to be mounted as far forward as possible and many times for adult men the stocks are too short. A 1' thick slip-on butt pad is the same as moving the scope forward 1". We keep 2 or 3 BlackHawk cheek rests to slap on guns to bring the cheek weld up higher if we see someone "hovering" to get a clear sight picture. Works great, cheap and easy...O.L.
Guys,
I really appreciate all of the feedback and various opinions. I will probably be attending the February or March shoot at Quail Creek, as I will be unable to make the January shoot.
Right now, I am leaning towards using the tech-sights - as I would like to learn with the iron sights - and then possibly move to a scope in the future. I like the idea of the slip on butt pad and the cheek pad to help with the issues using a scope on the 10/22, so I will keep that in mind in the future.
Thanks again.
ED
Frisco kid sounds,
like your getting valuable info.
and are on the right track,
as far as trying to go Iron then Glass!
A friend and I will be at the Dallas Appleseed on 5/19-20. Cant wait to meet everyone and learn a whole bunch.
I decided to put the tech-sights on my 10/22 and go with the iron sights first, then possibly move to a scope.
At my 1st AS 06 my bushnell scope broke on day 1 .
1s thought ,oh oh I will never score well as my eyes are past the 5th decade.
Turned out I not only scored RM , I shot it with a rifle I never got past marksman with while active duty in USMC ;D
No offense to the "Corp" but AS got my me and my M14 to Rifleman standards O0
Semper fidelis to Justin who gave you really good info on your 1st Appleseed O0
Welcome aboard and see you on the trail
I'm sure you'll have a "blast" (both meanings) at Quail Creek.
I recently passed the big 6 - oh myself, and struggle with iron sights, although aperture sights are far better than open sights.
If you DO decide to go with a scope later, be aware that you do not need high magnification. My favorite LTR right now is a 10/22 with a fixed 2.5 power scope. It provides plenty of magnification to see the target, without magnifying the wobbles so much that they distract you from paying attention to the fundamentals that will be taught. I'd recommend something like that or a variable with the low-end magnification no higher than 3x. I grimace and shudder when I see somebody show up at a 'seed with a 6x-18x variable mounted, (invariably set at 18x when they get there) 'cuz I expect that they'll have troubles.
Appleseed is NOT an "equipment race." You cannot buy your skill or success, as our American culture often leads people to attempt.
Appleseed is NOT an "equipment race." You cannot buy your skill or success, as our American culture often leads people to attempt.
[/quote]
Great concept! I'm borrowing this! ..:..
Quote from: Two Wolves on January 02, 2012, 11:27:56 PM
The first is focusing your mind to keep your eyes on the crosshairs of the scope.
Absolutely Key!!!
I recently shot my first, second, and third rifleman scores consecutively, and this was the key I was missing. I have an adjustable scope on my M&P 15.22 , with the magnification all the way out I started to DO ALL THE STEPS... Crazy right. @) Human nature is to focus on the target, but when I started focusing on the crosshairs you are better able to "call your shot" and this was the missing piece of the puzzle for me.
Next for me will be to but the stock peep sights back on her and perfect that...
Peace y'all
WhiteKnight
ED,
I would recommend using iron sights. I cant use them well cause im right handed and left eye dominant, so i use a scope. But iron sights are easier to learn on for most people because the first two steps of the six steps to firing a shot apply to iron sights. This is just my opinion but i think iron sights would be best to use but use what you want or have.
RN
I broke out a new scope once,
to see how it would fix my problems,
and it was a horse of another color,
and another learned species in itself!