for a 2 day coarse there?
is there different things covered at either place?
Front Site doesn't teach this.
I won't go into Dr. Pizza's ethical issues but's lets just say nthat anyone that calls himself a "4Weapon Combat Master"
and has never been in a gunfight has other issues.
Front Site is a resort, not a weapons school.
Even the court said so when they put him in receivership
Handgun courses are good for begineer to intermediate. Rifle class is brutally slow, we shot 43 rounds the first 2 days, with little marksmanship instruction.
I did a 4 day defensive pistol course at front sight. It improved my pistol skills by lets say 400%. I have not taken any other classes from them. Can you learn something from almost any class? Most likely yes. Who's more effective? The man with 49 guns and one training class, or the man with one gun and 49 training classes under his belt. Easy answer. I had a good time, and learned a lot.
Appleseed......Rifle instruction. Completely different. Apples and Oranges. Pistol vs Rifle. I had a great time at my first appleseed. Improved my rifle skills by lets say 50%. Over time and practice I have improved my rifle by 200%. It was easier and faster to see in the pistol course vs appleseed rifle course. History at appleseed......Frontsight had classes about how to handle the situation after a lethal force encounter, and how to avoid the encounter in the first place.
Two different animals.
Cyclops WY
i did take the 4 day defensive handgun there. for the price i paid $125 plus $50 for background check +ammo i think it was ok.
but for 4 days we spent way to much time on safety, malfunctions, drawing and lots of sales pitching for lifetime memberships.
I FEEL LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO POLISH A TURD WITH SOME THINGS!
We did not shoot past the 15 yard line, i was hoping the would at least spend a little time on longer distances and marksmanship.
considering its in the middle of no where i wish they had a rv park with hookups maybe a hotel also.
I used porta potties on the job i kinda have grown old of those things...wheres the bathrooms?
Did you pass the course? I do like that about Front Sight. You can't advance until you pass the class. I think they have 4 levels of pistol classes.
As for the sales pitch.......Out one hear and into the person next to me.....
I went for free on a gold members birthday party. Back to the sales pitch.
Cyclops WY
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 12, 2011, 12:21:00 AM
Did you pass the course? I do like that about Front Sight. You can't advance until you pass the class. I think they have 4 levels of pistol classes.
Cyclops WY
Everybody passes(no child left behind?).....but if your a distinguished graduate you get a silver seal on your certificate... I did
one thing that did screw me up at front site was being out of work for so long and staying up late all the time
couldn't fall asleep earlier than 11:30 or 12
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 12, 2011, 12:06:35 AM
I did a 4 day defensive pistol course at front sight. It improved my pistol skills by lets say 400%. I have not taken any other classes from them. Can you learn something from almost any class? Most likely yes. Who's more effective? The man with 49 guns and one training class, or the man with one gun and 49 training classes under his belt. Easy answer. I had a good time, and learned a lot.
Appleseed......Rifle instruction. Completely different. Apples and Oranges. Pistol vs Rifle. I had a great time at my first appleseed. Improved my rifle skills by lets say 50%. Over time and practice I have improved my rifle by 200%. It was easier and faster to see in the pistol course vs appleseed rifle course. History at appleseed......Frontsight had classes about how to handle the situation after a lethal force encounter, and how to avoid the encounter in the first place.
Two different animals.
Cyclops WY
That is a spot on analysis. I've been to several FS classes, living 3 hrs away helps. I've learned something at every one.
I didn't consider the sales pitch for a mambership a hard sell. It's a video they show at lunch and that's it. I bought one and got 2 free ones with it, along with 4 free guns. I sold 3 of the guns and both memberships which almost covered the cost of my membership. Everytime I go there now, it's on their dime O0
There are going to be close to 20 Appleeseed instructors there next weekend for my "Birthday Party". There will be lots of fun and 7th stepping. I've brought several people to AS while at FS.
I almost forgot. The reason they only shoot to 15 yds is that statistics show that 90% of gun fights take place inside of 7 yds. They used to go out to 25. There is a class where they go out to 50.
Quote from: ktm525xcatv on February 12, 2011, 12:23:53 AM
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 12, 2011, 12:21:00 AM
Did you pass the course? I do like that about Front Sight. You can't advance until you pass the class. I think they have 4 levels of pistol classes.
Cyclops WY
Everybody passes(no child left behind?).....but if your a distinguished graduate you get a silver seal on your certificate... I did
You have to get the silver certificate to take the next level class. You can't move on without it. That's what I was talking about passing the class.
Cyclops
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 12, 2011, 12:57:38 AM
Quote from: ktm525xcatv on February 12, 2011, 12:23:53 AM
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 12, 2011, 12:21:00 AM
Did you pass the course? I do like that about Front Sight. You can't advance until you pass the class. I think they have 4 levels of pistol classes.
Cyclops WY
Everybody passes(no child left behind?).....but if your a distinguished graduate you get a silver seal on your certificate... I did
You have to get the silver certificate to take the next level class. You can't move on without it. That's what I was talking about passing the class.
Cyclops
yes i did get it
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
Quote from: Heimdhal on February 12, 2011, 01:17:48 AM
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
and machinegun-seed!!
Quote from: ktm525xcatv on February 12, 2011, 12:17:00 AM
i did take the 4 day defensive handgun there. for the price i paid $125 plus $50 for background check +ammo i think it was ok.
but for 4 days we spent way to much time on safety Safety is Appleseed rule #1 so please be prepared to revisit this area several times during the Appleseed weekend :) :), malfunctions, drawing and lots of sales pitching for lifetime memberships.
I FEEL LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO POLISH A TURD WITH SOME THINGS!
We did not shoot past the 15 yard line, i was hoping the would at least spend a little time on longer distances and marksmanship.
considering its in the middle of no where i wish they had a rv park with hookups maybe a hotel also.
I used porta potties on the job i kinda have grown old of those things...wheres the bathrooms?
yes safety is important but learning something is important also
Quote from: Heimdhal on February 12, 2011, 01:17:48 AM
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
I think we are going to do one... after everyone's been through the rifle portion. Only about 300,000,000 shooters to go!
Pistols and machineguns don't fit in the theme of 1776. Best to set the sails and stay the course, always being mindful of the underlying currents. ~Two Wolves
A buddy told me the "subgun" class is great O0
For exactly what reason ,I have no idea :o
Did the frontsight program further the gun culture? with regard to self defense,value of private ownership ,political action etc?
I think this idea might be part of the blow up with AS back in 06. So, been there, done that.
BTW, the pistol is only to get you to your rifle.
Quote from: Heimdhal on February 12, 2011, 01:17:48 AM
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
Quote from: colycat on February 12, 2011, 05:09:08 PM
I think this idea might be part of the blow up with AS back in 06. So, been there, done that.
It did. It was ugly. It had everything to do with fun shooting and little to do with waking a nation.
Stay on target...
Kinda like comparing appleseeds to orange seeds. :)
Appleseed is an all volunteer program that is ran to teach the history of the beginning of our great country, mixed with a great weekend of marksmanship training and a kick in the butt to get you off the couch and bring your friends out to learn the same level of marksmanship. The instructors might be volunteer but most of them are very professional. And the training is top notch.
Frontsight is a business and as such they try to get repeat business and some of their marketing techniques border on the insane. The paid instructors at frontsight can be less professional then their position entails at times.
Both programs teach marksmanship and safety.
Which is better? Well if you are honest with your self and do everything the instructors tell you you can learn from both. I can't think of a single class that i have attended that i have not learned something new. And if you check with the AS and FS instructors both groups will tell you that even as experienced instructors they still learn new things from each class.
Now i have never attended a rifle course at FS but the handgun courses i believe do have some value. And as a friend of mine says"One mind, any weapon". So learn how to shoot your battle rifle from appleseed( much better value for your money). Learn how to shoot your handgun from frontsight (or me). And spread the word about the second amendment and the dangers our country faces if we don't wake up our fellow Americans.
You need a full tool box if we're going to fix this country. you can't pack a rifle with you every where you go. so have your handgun so that you can get the fight started and get to your rifle.
Jerry Hennings
Lead Instructor
Triple H Training
Just some notes. I am an NRA firearms safety instructor, NRA basic pistol instructor, Utah Concealed firearms instructor, Appleseed member since '08 and diamond Frontsight member since '09 so i have seen both programs and i love them both.
They do share a common goal and that is preserving the heritage of firearms ownership in our great country.
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on February 12, 2011, 11:39:04 AM
A buddy told me the "subgun" class is great O0
For exactly what reason ,I have no idea :o
Did the frontsight program further the gun culture? with regard to self defense,value of private ownership ,political action etc?
Front Sight's mission statement is, and I'm paraphrasing a little, "To positively change the image of gun ownership during our lifetime."
If I had not discovered Appleseed, I would have become a Front Sight instructor. I was looking for something to get involved in.
I should have been clear in my previous post. There are many schools of firearms instruction and thank goodness that is true. From Suarez, to Frontsight, to Tactical Response and to the thousands of smaller state levels schools let me say, "Thank you!"
America can use all the schools it can have to support as large a gun owning populace as possible. Each school provides another tool in the tool belt and none eliminates the need, or usefulness of another.
Appleseed has its own special place as a history and heritage program with a superb rifleman's clinic. That is who we are and what we are and our mission is just that simple.
So as much as we can feed our students up into CMP or off into other schools, that is great as long as they take the 7th step with them. But our focus must remain as clear and crisp as our eyes are on that front sight blade.
Apples & Oranges all can exist on the same plate.
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on February 12, 2011, 11:39:04 AM
A buddy told me the "subgun" class is great O0
For exactly what reason ,I have no idea :o
Did the frontsight program further the gun culture? with regard to self defense,value of private ownership ,political action etc?
maybe if you just happen to find a uzi on the side of the road?
Quote from: slim on February 12, 2011, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: Heimdhal on February 12, 2011, 01:17:48 AM
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
I think we are going to do one... after everyone's been through the rifle portion. Only about 300,000,000 shooters to go!
The population of the United States was counted as 308,745,538.
theres only 8,745,538 anti gun people in the us? i think there is at least that many in NJ and CA. :--- :~
ktm525xcatv
How was your first day of instruction? Hope you had a hoot.
Cyclops WY
Quote from: ktm525xcatv on February 13, 2011, 12:41:45 AM
Quote from: slim on February 12, 2011, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: Heimdhal on February 12, 2011, 01:17:48 AM
Brings up a good question:
Have we ever considered doing a "Pistol-Seed?" event.
Might not be a horrible idea...or it might be.
I think we are going to do one... after everyone's been through the rifle portion. Only about 300,000,000 shooters to go!
The population of the United States was counted as 308,745,538.
theres only 8,745,538 anti gun people in the us? i think there is at least that many in NJ and CA. :--- :~
Nah, thats jsut the babies. Well get CA and NJ to learn a thing or two, too. ;D :---
Quote from: Cyclops WY on February 13, 2011, 12:42:32 AM
ktm525xcatv
How was your first day of instruction? Hope you had a hoot.
Cyclops WY
i'll be back tommorow
I realize that there are many different ways you can compare one type of course to another. i.e. price, value, quality.
But what needs to be said here is courses like Frontsight and CHL courses, are built around saving yourself in a confrontation.
Appleseed is built around you saving your country in a nonviolent manner.
Everything has to do with ones MINDSET. If your focused on saving yourself then taking a self-defense course is appropriate.
If your focused on how can I save my country then the mindset needs to be of helping others to find ways of helping others. Thus the beauty of Appleseed.
For me, it's more important to donate my time and my money to futher this mission.
Once again it comes down to YOUR MINDSET. The direction of the country is dictated by mindset. Change the mindset of people and you can change the direction.
This is why the youth programs and family involvement is so important.
Appleseed is not the final word or the end destination regarding change.
Instead it is the beginning spot in the journey. A place where people come and are willing to opens their minds. It's that process that allows an individual to start to change and modify their mindset.
We talk and listen to the events that led up to April 19Th, 1775. What led those colonist was their mindset.
yada,yada,yada, ~Two Wolves
Good comments from others who have participated in both courses. Both have a place,
Appleseed has a higher broader mission and a great chance to pay forward what has been done for us by the founders.
I enjoy both, FrontSight is chance to polish my skills for handgun and 7 th step and promote Appleseed!
I can go to FS once a year, I can promote AS most days and any time I am at a local range and Appleseed 6-8 times a year.
Quote from: Two Wolves on February 13, 2011, 03:50:54 PM
I realize that there are many different ways you can compare one type of course to another. i.e. price, value, quality.
But what needs to be said here is courses like Frontsight and CHL courses, are built around saving yourself in a confrontation.
Appleseed is built around you saving your country in a nonviolent manner.
Everything has to do with ones MINDSET. If your focused on saving yourself then taking a self-defense course is appropriate.
If your focused on how can I save my country then the mindset needs to be of helping others to find ways of helping others. Thus the beauty of Appleseed.
For me, it's more important to donate my time and my money to futher this mission.
Once again it comes down to YOUR MINDSET. The direction of the country is dictated by mindset. Change the mindset of people and you can change the direction.
This is why the youth programs and family involvement is so important.
Appleseed is not the final word or the end destination regarding change.
Instead it is the beginning spot in the journey. A place where people come and are willing to opens their minds. It's that process that allows an individual to start to change and modify their mindset.
We talk and listen to the events that led up to April 19Th, 1775. What led those colonist was their mindset.
yada,yada,yada, ~Two Wolves
100%agree on that
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on February 12, 2011, 11:39:04 AM
Did the frontsight program further the gun culture? with regard to self defense,value of private ownership ,political action etc?
Hey Johnnyappleseed - Besides the fantastic instruction on the range, there were two aspects of Front Sight that I didn't expect, but thoroughly appreciated. #1. In no way did they rundown any other self-defense/gun/pro-2nd Amendment program. In fact, many of the instructors had multiple memberships in other organizations. And, #2. The instructors were adamant that you understand the consequences of being involved in a shooting, even a justified one! The repercussions to you and your family can be unfathomable. To me, defending my children, and surviving so I may be there for them, is priority! &) Then I'll deal with the fallout.
I am a lifetime member of Front Sight and a new IIT in Appleseed. I have joined both for very different reasons.
Front Sight is a great self-defense training school: a place to hone your skills for concealed carry, to prepare mentally and physically for the unforeseen battle, and a great place for three sisters to get away for a week! ;D
Appleseed is a way of life. Something you do with your entire family, not to prepare for a battle we hope will never come, but to advance ourselves in the reality of life we are already living: a place I can bring my son and know that he will be rubbing elbows with the salt-of-the-earth, enjoy the history brought to life by the instructors, and the history we are making by being there.
Both forums have their place, but as jerryinhermiston said, Appleseeds to Oranges. O0