I'd sure like some advice on handguns for home protection. :--- Caliber, cylinder vs magazine. All advice most welcome.
DeborahG
Deb, the 'insiders' would tell you a 12-gauge shotgun would be the way to go.
If a pistol it has to be, you'll get plenty of advice, here...
DeborahG,
Give this forum a try ;) It is free to sign up and post, and there is a wealth of information not only on firearms suggestions but also on the Ohio legal issues that may go with it.
http://www.ohioccwforums.org/
BTW you will find some crazy guy by the name Meanstreaker over there too >:D Oh and I post by the name of Gimp over there.
DryFire
Yes shotgun
Short 12GA with bird shot would be my advice - easy to handle, low recoil and penetration (lowers chance of shooting neighbors) and most people know the sound of a pump action in action. Then thar's that big hole in the dangerous end.
Remember the age-old axiom:
It takes a pistol to protect yerself, a shotgun to defend yer home, but it takes a rifle to defend Liberty.
Now let's get back to the mission!
Before the advice there are some more questions. Is this only for the home, or are you planning to carry? Do you have experience/training with pistols? Are you, or will you be, practicing with this pistol on a regular basis? Do you have, or are you willing to work on, grip strength ?
Some of this may seem irrelevant, but it all has to do with the revolver/semiauto question, except for "will you carry?" A revolver takes more hand strength to pull the trigger (up to 15 lbs), but it is easier to master because it is a simpler machine. My wife is a wiz with a revolver, and just getting into semiautos. She worked to build hand strength with one of those grip exercisers from Walmart.
Semiautos are easier to conceal and have greater ammo capacity. Some people prefer them for carry because of that. I carry a revolver, because if I ever really need it "simple" is good when you are flooded with adrenaline and your fine motor skills get flushed away.
All that said, if it only for the home, and you can secure it, get a shotgun. More intimidating (to them) and it makes a better club if you run out of ammo. :)
Quote from: DryFire on June 25, 2010, 06:59:25 PM
DeborahG,
Give this forum a try ;) It is free to sign up and post, and there is a wealth of information not only on firearms suggestions but also on the Ohio legal issues that may go with it.
http://www.ohioccwforums.org/
BTW you will find some crazy guy by the name Meanstreaker over there too >:D Oh and I post by the name of Gimp over there.
DryFire
+1
And one thing that will get discussed is overpenetration. I spent 6 hours testing exactly that this weekend with a friend of mine on ingunowners (35 videos worth):
http://ingunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/96688-aar_ingo_box_of_truth_june_19_2010_a.html (http://ingunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/96688-aar_ingo_box_of_truth_june_19_2010_a.html)
Ohioccw is definitely the place to go. That is the site that led me to Appleseed in the first place!
As a NRA pistol instructor, I would recommend a 12 gauge pump shotgun. Very effective and it makes a very distinctive sound when you rack in a shell.
If you want to stick with a hand gun I will give two recommendations:
1911 .45acp. This gun takes training and regular practice and is a time proven effective weapon.
S&W .357 Revolver. This gun takes a bit less training but the same amount of regular practice.
Whichever way you go, get good training and PRACTICE a lot.
2 clicks low
I haven't trained to sweep my house with a shotgun, but I have had some training and "practice" with sweeping my house with a handgun and flashlight. The only concern with using a shotgun would be the need to sweep your house in the middle of the night...you will likely need two hands...one for the gun and the other holding a flashlight to "flash" when needed and/or open/push doors when needed...difficult to do with both hands on a shotgun.
You should have a flashlight (or two, they recommend....Murphy's Law, you know) ready at your bedside with your firearm. Another bit of advice that was passed on to me: keep electronic ear muffs with your "bedside gear." They amplify sound, which will give you a tactical advantage (aside from home court advantage you will naturally have ;)) and will prevent you from going deaf should you need to fire your gun in a confined space.
One of these days I need to take a tactical shotgun course. Oh...I keep a SIG 220 mounted with a Surefire tactical light/laser at my bedside...the light alone is enough to blind a zombie, but I need two hands because I don't keep the light on when I sweep the house...just to flash.
Oh...I almost forgot the ultimate home court advantage -- I sleep with two pit bulls at my feet! ;D
DeborahG, I don't know your home situation, but the last thing you want to be doing is "sweeping your house" to look for bad guys. Since you're asking about guns here I'm assuming you don't have a lot of training. Even for those with a lot of training, sweeping your house in the middle of the night is still not the best idea.
For home defense, a 12 ga. pump shotgun can't be beat. You don't need a lot of training and if you hear something go bump in the night, you can hunker down in your room, lock the door, and call 9-1-1. The cops can come sweep your house for you. That's what they get paid to do, let them do the dirty work. In the meantime you can sit there with the barrel pointed at the door, phone to your ear, and be 100% safe.
If you insist on getting a handgun, make sure you get the training necessary to handle it safely and effectively. While some folks will tell you handguns are extremely easy to use, it's important to remember they're basing that on using them at gun ranges, not scared to death in the middle of the night.
Also, there are a million things you can do to make your home more secure. Think locks on doors and windows, good lighting, maybe even a dog or home security system. If you have that stuff already and are just wanting a firearm to "complete it" then do the research over at OFCC and other forums, talk to AS instructors in person, and go shooting!
Good luck!
I keep an AR next to the bed with light weight varmint rounds in it - you'll have to decide if a long gun or pistol works better for you and your situation, along with what you plan on doing with it if something occurs.
I certainly don't plan on clearing my house, but I do plan on holing up behind a locked door with my family, and letting the police clear the house if need be.
As others have said, the 12 ga can't be beat for hunkering down and controlling a room. If you can only afford one firearm, then get a handgun so you have the option to carry it.
I also highly recommend you check out www.OhioCCWforums.org for a ton of friendly folks that will gladly help you with details. :)
I'll be the odd man here. But depending on stature and experience, I would almost always recommend a 20 ga over a 12 for the average homeowner (this after hunting with a 12 gauge for 36 years). A youth model pump 20 ga will be shorter and at home defense ranges just as effective.
While a 12 with 7/8 oz loads will have the same or less felt recoil, it will be a heavier shotgun. The main disadvantage of the 20 is that ammunition tends to be a little more expensive and there is less large shot selection. If you are regularly shooting clays or skeet or hunting deer this might be a problem. For home defense and practice it is not.
By all means join the local organizations and try out some different possibilities.
I'll take this with a 30 round magazine of 55 grain Hornady TAP
(http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/JRossy/guns/pic008.jpg)
Over a 12 gauge with five or six rounds.
The carbine is shorter, carries four to five times the amount of ammo, and recoils FAR less than a shotgun.
If you use a shotgun, for God's sake don't buy into the dumb myths of using birdshot and racking the slide to scare away the intruder. Use ammunition that will do the job as quickly as possible (that means anti-personnel ammo: buckshot) and use as much as necessary. Police issue buckshot (Hornady TAP, Winchester Ranger, Remington Reduced Recoil) recoils significantly less than magnum hunting buckshot rounds. Also, our law presumes that someone in your house unlawfully is there to inflict death or severe injury. Stop them immediately with extreme violence.
5.56 rifle ammo designed for urban police use will give you the best chance of avoiding collateral damage should you miss. That is a fact. Go see www.theboxotruth.com for more info. Hornady 55 grain TAP was recommended to me by a friend who is a Ohio Dept of Corrections and Rehabilitation firearms instructor and has plenty of professional knowledge in this arena.
BTW, there is nothing sinister or illegal about purchasing and using police-issue ammunition. In fact, it is one of the easiest choices to explain and defend should you ever have to. It is all I use in my defensive handguns and long guns.
On hadnguns, I recommend a striker fired (Glock, S&W M&P) or double action only (SIG, Beretta, HK all make them) semi auto in 9 mm Luger. Duty ammo in 9 mm Luger has plenty of pwer to do the job and credible testing by experts such as Dr Martin Fackler and Dr Gary K Roberts have proven conclusively that the differences in tissue damage between semi auto duty rounds IN ALL CALIBERS are minimal at best. Handgun ammo is weak compared to rifles and shotguns. To make a handgun effective you need two things: correct shot placement and lots of hits. Correct shot placement is a matter of training and practice. Training and practice are most effective when you can afford to do more of it as 9 mm ammo is the least expensive of all calibers and striker fired and double action only semis are as easy to use as a revolver in most aspects and easier in others. The lots of hits part is easier when you have a pistol in your hands with 17 or 18 rounds of ammo instead of 6 or 7.
To All:
Might I make a suggestion? This is TMI - too much info, to the point of not being helpful to the asker and certainly to the point of getting off-mission. Please don't be offended - just a gentle reminder that home defense, while a great topic for conversation, is not what we do here.
I feel confident that DebroahG has plenty to think on and as the ship is still sinking - we all have plenty to do in terms of bailing. If anyone wishes to continue this lively debate, there are several forums better suited to such endless discussions on the finer points of home defense.
Don't hate me - I am just saving us all from a far more serious clown batting by the master of same, who will, so that I do not receive said thrashing myself, remain utterly nameless. :cool2:
PH
+1197
What PHenry said.
Wade
Whether you use a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, keep it loaded (unless you have some other consideration, like young kids in the house or something). You don't want to have to rack the action... it could take valuable seconds, you might forget to do it in the stress of the moment, and you give away a valuable advantage by giving away where you are (or the fact that you are home at all). You want to keep every advantage you can get in that kind of situation.
I would also say get something that you can mount a light on.
Myself, I keep a .38 special in the nightstand (next to a flashlight) and an AK-47 in the closet.
Amatures talk about hardware.
Pro's about software
that's from grossman's 'on combat'
'tis a wise man who empties his purse into his head
ben franklyn
Look- it's a mind set thing. the old analogy goes like this: would you rather be faced with the prom queen with a rocket launcher or Saadam with a butter knife?
So get some training in MINDSET along with the implement training.
the reality is, when I went through this same training curve way back when, is that you got to think about this:
unless you are wearing ear muffs, using the 12 guage in an enclosed space WILL cost you hearing. better'n being dead or worse, I suppose.
but handguns are pitiful ballistic whimps compared to even the mildest of rifle rounds. And the shot gun (my first home defense tool) still needs sights, still has to have the 6 steps, and is kind of unweildy.
www.quickshoot.com
WOW that was a lot of info. :o Thanks to all and I will check the other forums. Very small house and I would definitely know if someone was trying to get in. I actually sleep in my living room so they'd end up coming to me and I'd be waiting. A shotgun would probably blow out my walls so I'll look to the handgun answer. Don't plan on carrying. I have used revolvers before, again it's been a while. But for in home I think something where I can drop an empty mag and pop in another.
Sorry PHenry :bow:, didn't mean to ask wrong question here but figured I could be pointed in the right direction.
DeborahG
You didn't ask a wrong question DeborahG.
we just gave too many answers
SamD
DeborahG,
No apology solicited nor expected - not my point at'll.
This is a working forum that exists solely to further the Appleseeds mission of saving our country, but when a lady asks a question about self defense - it brings out the protective spirit in any decent man and even the most focused of us can get side-tracked into an endless debate. As you can see, there as many opinions on this subject as there are members of the forum!
I was merely trying to steer all of us back to the mission, once I saw that your valid and reasonable question had been answered and was clearly on it's way to becoming TMI. :wall:
PH
Quote from: DeborahG on June 27, 2010, 07:58:02 PM
A shotgun would probably blow out my walls so I'll look to the handgun answer.
A little drywall work is relatively cheap compared to your life, and the lives of others you would possibly save by killing a home invader! The effect on your walls shouldn't be a consideration when it comes to self defense.
Quote from: proneshooter on June 26, 2010, 10:24:26 AMStop them immediately with extreme violence.
Or turn on the lights, make a lot of noise, and scare them off.
While some home defense folks will advocate defending your tactical perimeter with clear fields of fire, area lighting and even employing obstacles to trip intruders and set them up for the kill, the typical intruder isn't there to "overrun your home base" he's there to steal something. 9 times out of 10 someone who's discovered is going to flee, especially when encountered by someone who's armed. "I have a gun and I've called the police."
While I'm not saying you shouldn't try to make your home a fortress of sorts, I am advocating setting it up to scare someone away instead actively trying to kill them. Most of these keyboard commandos on here and other forums, while they talk a big game about terminating with extreme prejudice, have never considered the ramifications taking someone's life will have.
Sure, everyone can agree they'd defend their home and family against an attacker, but to live the rest of your life knowing you took someone's life because they wanted to steal your TV is a complete issue entirely.
Quote from: DeborahG on June 27, 2010, 07:58:02 PMfor in home I think something where I can drop an empty mag and pop in another.
Of the numerous "defending the home with a gun" stories I've read, very, very few require more than just a couple shots - and that includes times when even the bad guy decides to fire. The typical "gun fight" is around 6 or 7 rounds with both parties firing and is usually more like 3 rounds. Even in those "big battles" where 18 shots are fired, they're usally all misses or only one or two rounds find their target.
When trying to decide a gun for the home, keep in mind you probably won't need 17+1 and a few extra clips laying around. You've sounded biased from the start for a pistol with a clip so if an autoloader is what you're comfortable with, get one. It's probably far more important for you to use a gun that fits you well and that you're comfortable with than to use the one the forums say is best.
Go shooting, find one you like, and buy that one!
Deborah, hopefully this thread has given you some ideas.
May I ask that this conversation be moved to one of the great self-defense oriented forums that are around the web? Perhaps Ohioans For Concealed Carry's forums at
www.OhioCCWforums.org
That way we all can get back to the intended purpose of these forums - saving the country through Appleseed!
That's what I love about these forums. We are all able to remained focused on our mission.
Thanks.
Hi Slim
Scaring someone is definitely what I would want to do to begin with. 30+ years ago I chased a man out of my home while wielding a golf club. Right back out the window he came in. Unfortunately I have since sold my golf clubs. Using a gun would be my last option, but the crazy way the world seems to be heading I just want to keep my options open.
Years ago I owned a revolver, a 22 caliber Colt 45 replica, loved it. Would like to own another but wasn't sure if 22 caliber was really enough fire power. I guess it would be if my aim is true.
Thanks for the info.
DeborahG
Quote from: DeborahG on June 29, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
wasn't sure if 22 caliber was really enough fire power. I guess it would be if my aim is true.
It's not, good aim or not.
My two cents and wow a lot of really good info
If you can not control it, it is worthless for it's intended purpose,
Think of penetration,, your family and neighbors.
The best home defence is having time to prep for the intrusion, for
Since MeanStreaker is only about two more posts from the obligatory modding job I'll suggest we stop the "debate." (As much as he doesn't want to - and he's a great guy to get going on this subject! - we have other business to do here.)
Deborah, you're welcome for any information I've provided and I'm sure any of us on this thread would be more than willing to talk via PM, in person, or even meet you at the range or gun store, etc. But we have to stop doing it here!
Good luck with your purchase or however you decide to go. If you'd like more info or a few more opinions, shoot someone a PM or chip a shot into their inbox.
+1 what Slim said
proper training will go farther than any bullet..you must learn properly.dont be like the other 95% of gun owners.. get your butt into a real world class of some sort.that cpl that everyone is running around with means nothing and owning a firearm means less,until the gun can be handled with a proper mind set.
unfortunatly crime ,home invations and all the bad stuff is on the rise and nobody will protect you and your family but you.owning a gun isnt just a right its a responsibility...just be safe ok
here is some schools close to home(ohio)
http://www.michigantrainer.com/
http://www.tdiohio.com/home.html
Deborah,
The one question that I always asked my trainees and clients, I'll ask you: "Can you take a human life?" period- no circumstances, &c. Do not be offended nor answer right away. We are [generally] trained to value human life since birth, so you must know the answer beforehand.
You will know the answer when you suddenly sit up in bed at 3 a.m. in cold sweat & shaking; the question posed being the reason why.
To those that would relegate this discussion to other boards, I ask WHY??
In order to achieve the mission of Appleseed, one needs to be alive & breathing. :) Not being in jail, or under review for a felonious assault also helps too. ;) :D
With the times and economy heading the direction it currently is, a generalized discussion as an answer to the posed is part of the mission see above. In reading the answers given so far, most courses and training have been well summarized, and I suspect valid in all 50 states irregardless of the Castle Doctrine stances. Heinlein's statement "...that an armed society is a polite society." will take on new meanings.
My $0.02 worth. Now back to the rest of the mission.
Tom
Thank you all for your input but as suggested let's put a close to this subject.
DeborahG
Deb, the most important part of even discussing a handgun is safety, I would highly recommend going to your local gun shop with a shooting range and let the guys there know your situation. Most will be more than happy to help and also allow you to rent/borrow their recommended gun and also can give you directions to a gun safety/training class. Do not and I repeat do not just buy one and keep it in the house without knowing how to use it and jeep it locked in a safe and away from kids.
A gun, no matter what caliber or type, will become more of a liability than an asset if you do not know how to handle it and secure it.
Dave, as it's been mentioned many times before (and I'm guilty as charged too) - this is not what Appleseed is about, so let's drop the subject :)