Since Col Barrett types too slow, I took the liberty of starting this thread.
There appears to be an opening here through him. What are the possibilities here? Do we see this as a worthwhile endeavor?
I think it would be.
J
As soon as you get past their organizational prejudices.
They insist on using rifles that are innefficient to the task and instructors of undefined qualification.
SamD
What rifles do they insist on?
I think we can still accomplish the mission if rifles and NRA cert are the only barriers. Objective 1: wake people up.
Let's take the time to understand the barriers:
All ages and unit types: Require an NRA Rangemaster AND and NRA Rifle Instructor to be present. Cannot be the same person.
Boy Scout Troops (Tan uniforms): Can only use single load rifles, cannot use magazines or tubes to hold/insert the rounds.
Venturing Crews (Dark Green uniforms): Can use any firearm that is legal in the state where the event is being held. Semi auto is ok, magazines are ok, full auto is ok.
Cub Scouts (Less than 10.5 years old): Can only use BB Guns at Council Level events only. Cannot shoot at any other events.
All Ages: Cannot shoot at human or hominid like targets including silhouettes.
However: They can all come to an Appleseed with their families, no uniforms, and it can be a great family activity.
THAT'S the way to do it--get them to come as a non-BSA event, do it our way.
SoM
Quote from: Son of Martha on February 03, 2010, 01:42:52 PM
THAT'S the way to do it--get them to come as a non-BSA event, do it our way.
SoM
Folks, that's going to be the simplest way to get it done.
Boost it through the Scouts, but come as an individual.
Heck, they might even drag Mom and Dad along as well.
Thanks Appalacious for starting this thread. My comp is down and I have been limited to my Blackberry and Iphone for forum access outside the office.
I will talk with my friend more to get the details of what he had pictured. I figured there was some red tape, but I didn't quite understand what kind of rules were in place within the scouts organization. Can we approach it in this manner... we cater an Appleseed to them, no scouts uniforms involved. Can one of the families that may own proper land and berms have us come out and host an Appleseed on their property and tell them it is open to anyone that the group wishes to contact? I just feel like it would be nice to seclude the younger shooters probably about 12 and up and their families and friends into a single Appleseed shoot. Not having to get a group of 20 guys an hour away for a weekend.
Sorry if I am making this too much trouble. I will get more details and see what he had in mind.
We have done a couple of BSA Appleseeds here in CA and they it was handled was with a Merit Badge Counselor. He was supplied by the BSA Troop in attendance and his presence alleviated a lot of the hoops we had to jump through. We still had to have NRA RSO certs, but the scouts borrowed our LTR's, most of which were semi-auto. We also used all of our standard targets. Did this MBC bend the rules a bit? I guess that's possible, but that wasn't up to us. We had all of the scouts qualify for their merit badges but one. 29 in all. That was my experience.
correct me if you have better information, but my understanding of the single-shot rifles, NRA RSO's, etc. refer to scout hosted events on scout grounds, and even the single-shot refers to the merit badge requirements.
Alright, I got a better understanding of what my friend has in mind.
One of the scouts father in their troop is a member of a range in Gainesville. They think that we can book the range or a portion of it for a weekend with a couple weeks/months in advance. He was thinking it wouldn't be a "Hey everyone here is your form, lets go shoot together", but rather a selective process of the boys who are mature enough and may have interest in this. He said there are 40 scouts and there would probably be a ball park of 10-20 scouts who would be a good match. In addition to the scouts a few friends/brothers and parents that would be interested in attending, hopefully a total of 40 or so people. They would not consider this a Scout outing, but rather a few of them doing an activity outside of scouts as friends.
My friend plans to attend an Appleseed with his two oldest boys in March in Toccoa and is very interested in becoming an instructor and helping our program grow. So, I don't know if my role is done here as far as matching him to people above my training level to coordinate further. Or if I am needed to help do absolutely anything then I would be glad to do so. I just think it may be a great avenue to try and find friends and family in Scouts to duplicate this concept based on how it goes. Myself and probably many others are concerned with the direction the Scout organization has started turning the last decade and would love to reinstate American values back into the program.
Please let me know if anyone needs me to do more or whom I should contact to make things happen with this. I am assuming SoM or Raymond is who I should be contacting next, which I will do so in the next couple of days if they would prefer to take this in pm form instead of open air.
I've been in a local sportsmens' club for quite a while. Back around 1990, a fellow member worked w/ a Boy Scout troop master. The club was asked for permission to use the range one night a week for the scouts' to work on their merit badges in riflery. I was asked to help w/ the project. The member who had brought the project to the club, was at that time a member of the U.S. Int'l. Muzzleloading Team, (a rifle builder, and a gold medalist in int'l. competition.) We used muzzleloading rifles and shot according to the Boy Scout criterion. By the end of the summer, all but a couple of the boys' qualified.
Fast forward to spring a year or two ago. The local Boy Scout Council solicited area gun clubs for donations of ammunition for their shooting program. I took the opportunity to promote AS to the scout representaive, and mailed him an informational packet as well. Their was no further responce.
I expect a certain amount of institutional resistence, but learning from the above posts their are 'codified' obstacles as well. i don't rcall hearing about such things when working on that merit badge project at the time. Obviously we got the single shot rifle part covered.
Quote from: bob 210 on February 03, 2010, 03:09:03 PM
We have done a couple of BSA Appleseeds here in CA and they it was handled was with a Merit Badge Counselor. He was supplied by the BSA Troop in attendance and his presence alleviated a lot of the hoops we had to jump through. We still had to have NRA RSO certs, but the scouts borrowed our LTR's, most of which were semi-auto. We also used all of our standard targets. Did this MBC bend the rules a bit? I guess that's possible, but that wasn't up to us. We had all of the scouts qualify for their merit badges but one. 29 in all. That was my experience.
I regret that I have to disagree. The presence of a Merit Badge Counselor does not change the BSA regulations in any way. In the case that Bob210 describes it is entirely likely that the BSA adults failed to properly understand the regulations, this failure would likely nullify all BSA insurance.
Bottom line: Boy Scout Troop members MAY NOT use semi auto rifles. Period.
Get them to come as individuals, leave the uniforms at home and you are golden. Uniforms on the line that are not Dark Green spell trouble unless they are using single load rimfire rifles.
I don't like the rule, I don't approve of the rule. I also lack the authority to change the rule..... :(
I was stating the facts of what happened. Nothing to disagree with. ???
Quote from: eaglescouter on February 03, 2010, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: bob 210 on February 03, 2010, 03:09:03 PM
We have done a couple of BSA Appleseeds here in CA and they it was handled was with a Merit Badge Counselor. He was supplied by the BSA Troop in attendance and his presence alleviated a lot of the hoops we had to jump through. We still had to have NRA RSO certs, but the scouts borrowed our LTR's, most of which were semi-auto. We also used all of our standard targets. Did this MBC bend the rules a bit? I guess that's possible, but that wasn't up to us. We had all of the scouts qualify for their merit badges but one. 29 in all. That was my experience.
I regret that I have to disagree. The presence of a Merit Badge Counselor does not change the BSA regulations in any way. In the case that Bob210 describes it is entirely likely that the BSA adults failed to properly understand the regulations, this failure would likely nullify all BSA insurance.
Bottom line: Boy Scout Troop members MAY NOT use semi auto rifles. Period.
Get them to come as individuals, leave the uniforms at home and you are golden. Uniforms on the line that are not Dark Green spell trouble unless they are using single load rimfire rifles.
I don't like the rule, I don't approve of the rule. I also lack the authority to change the rule..... :(
Bottom line is that the is no such thing as a BSA Appleseed.
Approach them like any other individual and press on.
Sam
.
I just love it when one of my threads catches on 8)
Looks like we've got the right idea with the "no-uniform" thing. Barrett, interface with sanderman to make it happen.
J
I'm here, that is what I was told. Works for me lets get it on.
Quote from: SamD on February 03, 2010, 07:28:55 PM
Bottom line is that the is no such thing as a BSA Appleseed.
Approach them like any other individual and press on.
Sam
I disagree. We had a troop show up to one of our regularly scheduled Appleseeds because the grandson of the landowner was in the troop. We had 20 boys show up with basically nothing. No ammo, no rifles, no safety equipment. So much for "be prepared".
We did our best to accomadate them but it severely impacted the non-BSA shooters. We ended up running a split line so that we could work with them. In the future I would definitely do it as a BSA only shoot, and make sure they are more prepared.
That doesn't mean you can't just call it an Appleseed. All the boys shot our Rugers and there were no concerns about the "wrong" rifle.
Greg
Willful disregard for the BSA rules will ultimately bring nothing but trouble in my opinion. Ignorance on the part of the scout leader is clearly a problem that needs to be resolved by BSA, but I would not want to be complicit in skirting the BSA rules if an accident happens.
Quote from: eaglescouter on February 04, 2010, 05:10:41 PM
Willful disregard for the BSA rules will ultimately bring nothing but trouble in my opinion. Ignorance on the part of the scout leader is clearly a problem that needs to be resolved by BSA, but I would not want to be complicit in skirting the BSA rules if an accident happens.
Willful disregard?
if a boy scout shows up at my shoot with his uniform on and his 10.22 in hand, I will happily and willfully disregard his organizations petty rules- since they don't apply to me. If he disregards them, thats his business. I'll probably mention it to him, but i won't make his decision for him. And frankly I hope he shoots anyway. Changing his shirt won't matter a bit to me.
J
The way I think about this is if they are shooting an Appleseed with Red Hats present at an RWVA event then they are covered by the RWVA Liablity.
All those BSA rules are what scouters doing a BSA sanctioned shoot need to do in order to be covered by their Liability at their venues/procured ranges.
Thats a separate issue from whether a Merit Badge counsellor is willing to count holes under a Dime in a squares target or AQTs versus some target they normally shoot.
So as long as its clear its Boy Scouts and their families attending an Appleseed who cares how they are dressed.
Now back to bailing IANAL I just pretend to be on forum's, this is not legal advice, yada yada yada
OK, so now we are talking BSA liability coverage vs. RWVA coverage.
Obviously a Boy Scout shooting Appleseed in uniform with a 10/22 at humanoid targets is not covered. He shoots himself in the foot, the Scouter who brought the boys is not protected from lawsuit by the Scout's parents. The question I have is what does OUR liability cover? Boy Scouts introduce the specter of a lot of children on the range with a limited number of adults to corral them. What is our policy on adult supervision, non-parental supervisors etc?
Somehow I am guessing that if 25 Boy Scouts show up with only 2 Scouters and one of the kids (not one who's parents are on hand) shoots himeslf in the foot, we may have liability problems ourselves for allowing an "unsafe" condition to exist (children with insufficient supervision). That parent not only could sue the Scouters but potentially RWVA if it did not have policies that adddresses this situation and if it did have policies in place then the Shoot Boss for not following them.
I just want to make sure what OUR policies are.
Quote from: AdamSelene on February 04, 2010, 07:06:12 PM
OK, so now we are talking BSA liability coverage vs. RWVA coverage.
Obviously a Boy Scout shooting Appleseed in uniform with a 10/22 at humanoid targets is not covered. He shoots himself in the foot, the Scouter who brought the boys is not protected from lawsuit by the Scout's parents. The question I have is what does OUR liability cover? Boy Scouts introduce the specter of a lot of children on the range with a limited number of adults to corral them. What is our policy on adult supervision, non-parental supervisors etc?
Somehow I am guessing that if 25 Boy Scouts show up with only 2 Scouters and one of the kids (not one who's parents are on hand) shoots himeslf in the foot, we may have liability problems ourselves for allowing an "unsafe" condition to exist (children with insufficient supervision). That parent not only could sue the Scouters but potentially RWVA if it did not have policies that adddresses this situation and if it did have policies in place then the Shoot Boss for not following them.
I just want to make sure what OUR policies are.
Everyone at an Appleseed has signed an RWVA liablity form, every kids name is on one along with an adult signature of responsibility. Its just like any other AS. As long as everyone is aware going in. What happens when the scouts go to a museum or national monument visit, the parents sign permission slips and off they go... OK so if the parents are sent an RWVA liability by the Scout masters, the parents sign it and off they go...
IANAL, and by the way I thought they were liability release forms, ie you can't sue us and we don't cover you, they are not insurance forms that get you cover because you sign them.
OK, I"m making things worse so I"m off to bail... lawyers bring me out in hives...
Under current rules, no Appleseed event is going to fit the rules of the BSA.
That is their business not ours (other than working to convince them to change their rules).
Any law abiding American citizen is welcome at Appleseed so if a youngster wants to shoot and follows our rules, he is welcome on the line with me, Scout or not likewise with 4H. Had plenty of them they just came with their folks and not the BSA.
Quote from: SamD on February 04, 2010, 11:03:32 PM
Under current rules, no Appleseed event is going to fit the rules of the BSA.
That is their business not ours (other than working to convince them to change their rules).
Any law abiding American citizen is welcome at Appleseed so if a youngster wants to shoot and follows our rules, he is welcome on the line with me, Scout or not likewise with 4H. Had plenty of them they just came with their folks and not the BSA.
Exactly right.
Attend with their family and all is well. Perhaps we get enough that way that BSA will hear about Appleseed from the participants :)
Or perhaps Appleseeders who are supporters of BSA and inside the organization will vigourously try to change their mind :cool2:
Quote from: SamD on February 05, 2010, 12:22:16 AM
Or perhaps Appleseeders who are supporters of BSA and inside the organization will vigourously try to change their mind :cool2:
The Titanic known as BSA will be slow to respond to the helm, but the pressure is being applied from within. Just like This Country we will not change Scouting back to its roots without a sustained effort.
Just to clarify the intentions of the my friend mentioned in the OP. He said that each boy would be attending with a parent(there is this bizarre coincidence where the boys are mature enough to handle guns, actually have parents who are part of their kids lives and not the drop my kids off with the BSA babysitter for a couple hours a week). So, his intentions were that all the boys would have a parent along, there may be a few who's parents are booked that weekend and another parent will help keep an eye on him, but I don't see this turning into a day care with guns. I think it will be a smooth event, if they want to host a range and we have instructors go there, I think everything will be fine. I DO NOT think this will turn into a BSA Appleseed. But rather several families from a BSA, who would like to experience an Appleseed, who will have their own range and would like a large majority of the shooters to be their families. I will start coordinating things in the next week, for now my friend had to leave for a family emergency in Ohio, so I am not trying to bug him right now.
I have been working diligently to get our local council on track.
They forget (actually never knew) what the BSA was created to do.
Never read anything about it's history, or the intentions of it's founders.
They were in fact intended to be a paramilitary organization.
Anyone that doubts that needs to read "Aids to Scouting" by Baden-Powell.
Another heritage negligent organization.
Help them.
In the mean time get them to Appleseed as individuals.
I think we need to figure out how to engage BSA at a national level. If we can't change the Rifle merit badge can we add an Appleseed merit badge?
Hey gunville,
Glad you brought that up.
I'm going to save Fred some time.
Go for it! O0
I dunno about a badge by itself, but while it currently cant contain everything needed for a merit badge, and Appleseed should cover most of the Rifle Shooting merit badge and the history section should cover some of Citizenship in the Nation.
Sam, thanks for saving me some time... :) :)
You guys are on to something in this thread.
Let's not let the effort die out.
Has anyone asked for a "show of hands" as to who in this program are Scouters?
The South Texas Council BSA has been receptive to talking with me but, still it comes down to STC wants to do it by the book which means NRA Instructors and RSOs and by their COI.
I have the NRA RSO Cert and should take the NRA Instructor course sometime soon (it is not set up yet here in South Tex). All this would allow me to teach the marksmanship merit badge privately and at Scout Camp ... again, by BSA's COI.
I am an Eagle Scout and was a Scouter for years when my boys were in BSA, and, would like to get back involved which is why I have struck up a relationship with the STC BSA. The Scout executive here gave me the green light to put Appleseed literature on their rack at the store. He likes the program and agrees that Scouts would do well to come to an AS event.
CHOICE
So, I have a choice: Get certified NRA and work on making a difference in these boys' lives using BSA rules, invite scouts and families to Appleseed events, or change the BSA rules. Me, in typical Northeast Texas (New England) Fashion, **) I chose to do all three. These guys are going to be running the country in a few years. Scouts need what Appleseed can teach them regardless of the HAT we wear BSA, NRA or Appleseed.
Keep up the push to change the BSA rules. From my experiences in Scouting both as Scout and as Scouter, Appleseed is a whole lot more fun, a whole lot more interesting, and, a whole lot more educational. Besides with Appleseed a Scout can really learn to shoot. Bottom line: AS turns out much better citizens. O0
POP
Fred,
I'm an Eagle Scout, Venturing Crew Advisor, Past Scout Master, and a member of the District Committee. Appleseed literature is posted in our local Scout Office and our Executive should be at an Appleseed this year.
I'm committed to righting the ship known as BSA. It's worth it for the kids.
es
Quote from: eaglescouter on February 08, 2010, 01:06:24 PM
Fred,
I'm an Eagle Scout, Venturing Crew Advisor, Past Scout Master, and a member of the District Committee. Appleseed literature is posted in our local Scout Office and our Executive should be at an Appleseed this year.
I'm committed to righting the ship known as BSA. It's worth it for the kids.
es
This is why I love Appleseed. We have the best with us.
O0