Has anyone tried the Silver Bear line of ammo in an M1A? I finally got my Polytech shooting well, just as the surplus stuff dried up. I don't shoot Wolf ammo, period (not after seeing a Sig P239 and a S&W CS40 blown up with Wolf ammo). Anyone know anything about this line of ammo, or any of the other (former?) Combloc producers?
I don't have first hand knowledge of silverbear, i heard tho it came from the same place as Wolf don't know for sure. I would look over at the M14 firing line or some others and poke around see what others have to say. btw welcome hope to see more of you around ;D
I'd recommend learning to reload. Cheaper than buying new factory stuff and you can "build" a load that makes your rifle shoot better.
I've tried Silver Bear 308 and my 308 Garand loves it, but the M1A hates it. On the other hand the M1A likes the new Wolf 308, not the laquer coated stuff...the new stuff with the powdery coating.
Silverbear is Barnaul
Standard Wolf is Tula
Wolf Gold is Prvi Partizan
Spatulaman, here are some more thoughts on this topic as previously posted:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=462.0
Big difference between Russian (Tula) and Privi Partisan (Yugoslavian).
Privi Partisan is the vendor for Graf and Hornady brass. Their 7.62x54R brass is really good stuff.
Quote from: Nickle on October 02, 2007, 10:20:31 PM
Big difference between Russian (Tula) and Privi Partisan.
Privi Partisan is the vendor for Graf and Hornady brass. Their 7.62x54R brass is really good stuff.
As I understand it, Privi is made in Serbia, not the former USSR.
Quote from: Spatulaman on October 03, 2007, 02:48:43 AM
As I understand it, Privi is made in Serbia, not the former USSR.
Yes it is. I'm not sure if it's Serbia, but it's definitely Yugoslavian. I fixed my post to reflect that.
The case of prvi I've got is clearly marked : 'made in serbia'.
One thing it has going for it ,,,it's not subject to 'surplus' regulations.
Serbia is a part of what used to be Yugoslavia.
In my experience the Privi stuff shoots great.
I just had my first exerience with the Siver Bear in .308. The only thing I got from it was good practise clearing malfunctions. Like my post about the Barnaul red seal sticky stuff, I have learned that with this Barnaul Silver bear stuff i am going to have to really clean my rifle. YUCK!!
I cannot find where I read it but I read you do not want to shoot magnetic bullets in your rifle.(I'm sure some here can clarify that statment). The Silver Bear ammo that I bought to deer hunt with was magnetic. I scraped the bullet with my knife blade and the bullet has merely a copper wash, scraped down to steel without any significant effort. I read the steel bullets will erode your riflle's bore after very little shooting. I did not use these bullets at all.
Those that know, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding magnetic bullets.
Quote from: Recon-one on October 18, 2007, 12:57:59 AM
I cannot find where I read it but I read you do not want to shoot magnetic bullets in your rifle.(I'm sure some here can clarify that statment). The Silver Bear ammo that I bought to deer hunt with was magnetic. I scraped the bullet with my knife blade and the bullet has merely a copper wash, scraped down to steel without any significant effort. I read the steel bullets will erode your riflle's bore after very little shooting. I did not use these bullets at all.
Those that know, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding magnetic bullets.
Recon-one,
All of the Greek and the US LC that the CMP recently had have bullets that react with a magnet. Most M-80 Ball, AL M855 Ball and many M193 Ball bullets will also react with a magnet. I am guessing this is what you mean by "magnetic bullets"?
Buckshot
Buckshot, as best I can recall the information regarding the magnetic bullets it stated some magnetic bullets have a steel component but the steel is surrounded by copper alloy jacket, a magnet will react mildly. These are safe to shoot because the alloy is thick enough to prevent the rifling from contacting the steel component. The Silver Bear cartridges I bought had a bullet that strongly attracted a magnet. That caused me to become suspicious of their construction so I scraped them with a knife blade to see how thick the jacket actually was, it was so thin it was almost non existant. It was merely a copper wash. These were the ones that the source material, (wish I could remember where it came from) had warned against their use. They are capable of quickly wearing a bore out. The source material stated these types of bullets were designed for use in a bore that is completely chrome lined, the chrome being hard enough to resist excessive wear. It further stated that the usual use of these bullets were for fully automatic weapons where "good" accuracy was actually detremental to the designed purpose of the firearm. Good accuracy would diminish the size of the "cone of fire" from a machine gun.
Much of the surplus ammo that was "recently" available was actually de-linked machine gun fodder, that makes me nervous about its construction. I think I will do a knife scrape on everything that I shoot from now on.
Did I fart or something? Everyone clammed up like they "found a turd in their churn after they got done making butter!
The Silver Bear ammo I referred to is described as 140 gr Bimetal SP, Zinc plated steel case. The projectile is obvioulsly lead pointed (soft point) so I thought bi metal was indicating lead core with copper alloy jacket, good hunting round. Wrong! The copper is merely a disguise for a steel jacket. And no I didn't put the magnet on the zinc plated steel case, I put it on the projectile and it is strongly magnetic. As a comparison I have some AP in 30/06, I put the same manget on it to detect the difference in magnetic attraction. Big Difference! The AP is steel but it is contained within a copper alloy jacket so the attraction is subdued. Not so with the Silver Bear (Barnhaul) it is strongly attracted.
I posted to see if anyone else had read, heard of the same information I had, evidently not. So Beware! Silver Bear (Barnhaul) uses a steel bullet and the steel will contact your rifling causing excessive wear. Don't use this stuff unless you have a chrome lined bore, designed for its use.
What I read was that some new guys started out with this stuff in a new rifle and though they acquired skill in shooting, the rifle was wearing out so fast they could not tell any improvement in their shooting. They were quitting in disgust when it wasn't their skill that was lacking, it was the equipment that was failing and they did'nt recognize the problem.
So,again, any one else heard of this?
Well, I hadn't responeded, mostly because I have no great interest in the stuff, because I make my own ammo.
But, I see that some info is warranted.
Now, I haven't checked the Silver Bear ammo myself. But, I know that what Recon-one is posting has been found on other ammo, and what he desribes is totally logical. So, I tend to believe him, even though I haven't checked it myself.
I will add a disclaimer that some mild steel core ammo (particularly some M80 Ball and M59 Ball, both USGI 7.62 NATO) has been known to have a fairly strong magnetic attraction, even more than AP has.
Now, let me "cut to the chase". I wouldn't use this stuff, or recommend it to anybody. It's not worth the risk of wrecking a good barrel. Either pay the higher price for better stuff, or start "rolling your own".
Remember the Indian ammo, the 97 or 98 vintage garbage? Well, this stuff appears to be today's Indian.
Same here. Sorry if it seemed like no one was interested, but I don't use it either. Got some SA, some Australian and some S&B in 7.62X51 and Greek in 7.62X63.
I'd be wary of shooting that stuff in any rifle I liked (and I like'em all). Take Nickle's advice and prepare to start loading you own unless you run into a good deal on some military surplus ammo.
John's Vermont Gunshop (the host? of Frugal Squirrels) has South African available (FRN250 per 3 battle packs or FRN750 per case of 9 battle packs). Works out to just shy of FRN0.60 per round. Shipping included to CONUS.
http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african.html (http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african.html)
http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african_case.html (http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african_case.html)
Pricey, but I haven't seen any other offerings lately.
AZ Gromit
And that same South African has been known to shoot well enough to make Rifleman.
South African will definitely get ya to rifleman 8) That's what I stocked up on for my M1A.
Question about the magnetically attractive rounds. I've still a case or two of Portuguese 7.62x51 NATO that I used shoot out of my CETME before I got my M1A. It always shot great, and people used to rave about this stuff... but it sounds like the Port might fall into the same category of lowering barrel life. Would you say that's accurate? (Not that I'm about to give away or even sell my supply or Port just yet). :-)
Tony
You are right you should sell those cases to me immediately ;)
I haven't shot any Portuguese, but I did find some here:
http://www.polygunbag.com/ammunition.html
I did notice that it has the NATO cross. Hmmm...Anyone else have any luck with this stuff?
Also, in regards to Lithuanian Surplus (GGG headstamp) - here are some excerpts from their website:
"GGG specializes in the production of cartridges cal. 5,56x45 GP21 (like SS109) and cal. 7,62x51 GP11 (like M80). The production is manufactured using only the best quality materials - smokeless powder, primers, brass strip, lead and steel wire. All raw materials are tested in GGG laboratories."
and
"GGG cartridges 7.62x51 GP11 are produced according to the requirements of STANAG 2310. GGG produces Case&Bullet Cups, Lead Cores and Bullets for these cartridges.
In 2005 cartridges has successfully passed the quality tests in NATO ERTC in Pendine and GGG has received a right to mark cartridges with NATO interchangeability sign.
NATO Design No. AC/116-33A"
and
"In 2005, after 3 years of experience in the sphere of ammunition production, GGG cartridges cal. 5.56x45 GP21 and cal. 7.62x51 GP11 has successfully passed the quality tests in NATO ERTC in Pendine. In 2005 GGG has received a right to mark cartridges with NATO interchangeability sign."
Interesting.
To answer my own question about the Portuguese, Boston says in his BGB that he likes it. I'll have to check it out for myself.
The case I had shot well. No noticable problems. Rifleman scors easily if you do your part....
Want to part with yours?
Student
Two things:
The Litho 'GGG' is superb stuff. clean and accruate. Also, Boxer primed ;)
Also,
The Australian is baaaaaak at: http://surplusammo.com/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=218&osCsid=531182a15a9918d7172467b35de95591
Went up today. I wonder who was holding onto that stuff for all these years.........
It might be Berdan primed, but it is legendary.....
JUST thought you might like to know
In the interest of science I decided to do an experiment.
I reciently got 40 rounds each of Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Barnaul, and Wolf (powdery poly coated).
My plan is to run a series of groups on one inch squares at 25 yards. I will fire the groups using A CETME, 2 FALS, and an M1A.
I plan to use a Remington 700 Sendero to shoot groups at 100 yards.
I will use various surplus ammo, and reloads as control groups.
Findings so far:
MAGNETIC ATTRACTION using the magnet removed from a screwdriver with removable heads.
Wolf: ("Made in Russia", very nice comercial packaging)
Bullet Strong attraction
Case "
Brown Bear:("Made in Russia", inside comercial packaging one finds rounds in a paper bundle as Comblock surplus, case is green laquer coated)
Bullet Strong attraction
Case "
Silver Bear: ("Made in Russia", Packaged the same as above Brown Bear, Case appears to be steel in the white.)
Bullet Strong attraction
Cast "
Barnaul ("Made in Russia", Packaged the same as the other Russian ammo, case is green laquer coated.)
Bullet Strong attraction
Case "
MIA3 Ball ("Made in South Africa", Typical surplus packaging, Brass case, crimped primer)
Bullet NO Attraction
Case "
Indian (OVF 7.62 M80 86 head stamp, Packaged in 10 round blister packs, Brass cased Crimped primer)
Bullet NO Atraction
Case "
US surplus (NATO cross WRA 68 head stamp, NA packaging, Brass case crimped primer)
Bullet NO Attraction
Case "
US surplus (NATO cross LC 86 head stamp, Delinked from M60 belt, Brass case Crimped primer)
Bullet Strong Attraction
Case NO Attraction
US Surplus (NATO cross LC92 head stamp, NA packaging, Brass case crimped primer)
Bullet Strong Attraction
Case No Attraction
CAVIM ("Hencho EN Venezuela", Comercial/ surplus packaging, Brass case crimped and green sealed primer)
Bullet No Attraction
Case No Attraction
7.62mm ball (TZ 80 head stamp, Surplus packaging from?, Brass case un-crimped primer with red sealant)
Bullet No Attraction
Case "
Black Hills Match
Bullet No Attraction
Case "
More on this experiment as it continues.
Student
Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can. It doesn't come around very often:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s
Thanks for the link wcmartin1.
I have a case of 500 coming my way from Natchez. I have tried to order this ammo from other sources, but it is always sold out by the time I get to it. Maybe the holidays has everyone spending elsewhere this time? I would buy more if not for that myself.
I got 500 rounds a while back and if it is the same stuff, it is good quality. My last batch was all Lake City 2006 stamped brass, great for reloading. (Apparently the Lake City plant is operated by the same parent company as Federal.) It was marked "Training" on the box and on another forum it was indicated this may be "rejects" from Lake City's military production. All I know is that I hand inspected every round and it has shot flawlessly with good accuracy in my M1A.
Its also not a bad deal as it comes in at .60 cents a round shipped to Nevada. Not cheap, but a lot of non-reloadable surplus stuff is more right now. I will report on the composition and give a range report when it arrives.
The following link is updated regularly and provides a good summary of 7.62x51 surplus ammo availability and pricing:
http://rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=431&sid=67782f720a823b75731c267d66584e99 (http://rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=431&sid=67782f720a823b75731c267d66584e99)
There is also some new Bosnian and Danish 7.62x51 listed. Check it out...
Dutch
Dutch,
Beatcha to it. It's already here: (under Ammo and Reloading)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=630.0
Thank you, though.
See ya.
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/308-danish-ama%2C-147gr-fmj-military-surplus-ammo%2C-50rd-boxes-/products_id/1765?osCsid=f328459f523db0d53647ac7fc5164c97
Danish 7.62 from J&G Sales, works out to .49rd, .42rd, if you buy at least 500rds.
Student
TZ headstamp is Israeli.
Dutch
roughly where in NV are you?
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 15, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can. It doesn't come around very often:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s
Thanks, I had to grab 1000 rds of this!
Fitz
Joe:
I am in Reno.
this looks interesting
http://www.grafs.com/product/181164
Ax
Quote from: ax238 on December 19, 2007, 11:59:28 AM
this looks interesting
http://www.grafs.com/product/181164
Ax
We sell the stuff for about the same price, maybe less. I'm not sure, as we're redoing our prices the first of the year, and though I know they're going up, I'm not sure how much yet.
Quote from: ax238 on December 19, 2007, 11:59:28 AM
this looks interesting
http://www.grafs.com/product/181164
Ax
It's good and I like the brass.
Nickle
QuoteWe sell the stuff for about the same price, maybe less. I'm not sure, as we're redoing our prices the first of the year, and though I know they're going up, I'm not sure how much yet.
are you selling it online? Or just instore. I really should get some, so I can reload it.
Has any one used Prvi Patizan 308? The Lithuania dose look's good to. What is the best price we can get on the Lithuania. Looking for 1K.
Aim has Litho for 105.??/200 when you buy 5 packs if I remember correctly. This past week I bought a 200 battlepack local to see how it shoots. It's boxer primed so I get to deduct the savings from the price. There is no doubt about it ammo prices are up. I get to test the stuff Saturday I'll let know how it shoots.
Quote from: Redwolf on December 19, 2007, 08:43:17 PM
Has any one used Prvi Patizan 308? The Lithuania dose look's good to. What is the best price we can get on the Lithuania. Looking for 1K.
Prvi Partizan:
It'll get you rifleman scores.
The brass is boxer primed, but it weighs the same as commercial .308 brass (as opposed to mil-spec 7.62).
Lithuanian:
Shoots good, also.
The brass weighs the same as Lake City. Got five reloads out of it.
Quote from: ax238 on December 19, 2007, 06:21:16 PM
Nickle
QuoteWe sell the stuff for about the same price, maybe less. I'm not sure, as we're redoing our prices the first of the year, and though I know they're going up, I'm not sure how much yet.
are you selling it online? Or just instore. I really should get some, so I can reload it.
Not online, but we do ship. The stuff we have is remanufactured, by us. If you're going to reload it, buy the Prvi Partisan, or buy surplus LC (Lake City) brass. You'll be happier in the end.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 15, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can. It doesn't come around very often:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s
Stamped "EC 07."
Quote from: Simballo on December 20, 2007, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 15, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can. It doesn't come around very often:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s
Stamped "EC 07."
Correction:
FC 07 (Federal Cartridge 2007)
Mine just came in today. ;D
Yep "FC 07"
The one I checked had a defect over the bottom of the "F" making it look like an "E." ;D
Here is the report I promised on the Litho 7.62. The ammo looks new and why not the date is 04. The head stamp is GGG. This stuff looks a lot like LC. I don't know this but I ask the question was it made at LC or out of US components? Perhaps one of you can provide the answer.
It shot as good as mil-surp ammo I have used in the past... perhaps better. I shot it out of a Garand.
It is pricey I'll let you decide if it's worth it.
Here is a link to the GGG website:
http://www.sovereign-publications.com/ggg-ammo.htm
Isn't the e-net wonderful? I guess that report explains why this stuff looks so good too bad we can't buy it at .30 per.
Sounds like good stuff. Now for my question. I keep reading that the reason we aren't seeing much surplus is because the UN is talking other countries into destroying it rather than selling it. Does Lithuania have about as much value for the opinions of the UN as most of us - is that why their surplus is ending up over here for us to buy?
Perhaps it is not surplus.... after all the dates are 03 & 04. Maybe they are just selling it to do what capitalist do....make money. They know there is a market here. It has been my experience for the last 60 trips around the sun that in a free market demands are supplied by someone.
Quote from: wildman on December 26, 2007, 09:43:58 PM
Perhaps it is not surplus.... after all the dates are 03 & 04. Maybe they are just selling it to do what capitalist do....make money. They know there is a market here. It has been my experience for the last 60 trips around the sun that in a free market demands are supplied by someone.
Imagine that. ;)
Check this out:
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Europe/Lithuania-POLITICS-GOVERNMENT-AND-TAXATION.html
A little off topic at this point in the thread, but someone earlier mentioned Australian 7.62ammo. Is the Australian corrosive? Is the South African corrosive? Thanks for any help.
I've got/shot both and neither were corrosive in my rifle.
Both Australian and South African 7.62x51 are non-corrosive.
Thank you both for the replies--that eases my mind.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 15, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can. It doesn't come around very often:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s
Regarding the Federal stuff - received mine on 20 Dec 07 and finally gave it a test drive yesterday morning.
Zero failures. Shot a 228-8 on a Q&D AQT with no sighters. (Every shot is a sighter.)
Left my scored target with a big *Rifleman* written across the top, Freds contact info circled, and another fresh target posted next to it with the challenge "Now it's your turn. C'mon, it's only 25 yards." written across the top.
Even though my Cowgirls lost yesterday, at least the day started out right. ;D
Shot a 233-10 yesterday with some PPU stuff I got from Widener's a couple months ago. ;D
One of my neighbors happened to be there shooting from a bench on the next range down. He came over and watched me shoot part of it and we got to talking about the AQT and how effective it was for teaching you to shoot from field positions. I gave him a couple of targets and he said that next time he would bring his AR and let me show him how to do it. Cool.
wc, the AQT can be touted a little more - it gives you a number when you get thru - and a standard to compare that number to, to see how you rank compared to what modern military people say is effective. Otherwise, how can you ever know how "well" you shoot? (Unless you never miss... :))
And, by giving you a number each time, it allows you to track your progress - to measure your improvement as it occurs.
It's a pretty good course of fire in many respects...
Quote from: Fred on January 28, 2008, 07:33:10 PM
wc, the AQT can be touted a little more - it gives you a number when you get thru - and a standard to compare that number to, to see how you rank compared to what modern military people say is effective. Otherwise, how can you ever know how "well" you shoot? (Unless you never miss... :))
And, by giving you a number each time, it allows you to track your progress - to measure your improvement as it occurs.
It's a pretty good course of fire in many respects...
Yeah, one I sometimes wish the Army was smart enough to go back to.
Pop-ups are fun, and the new course of fire is better, except for the furthest targets being at 300 (and that isn't the majority of them), which is also what the BSZ is for the M16A2 (some of us just zero it low on purpose). But, paper and scoring rings is a more effective training tool.
Absolutely Men,
I've been working on this guy for a while and have talked to him about the AQT's value several times. He's been skeptical as to how effective it would be until he saw me shooting it yesterday with my M1A - by the numbers. After I was done I pulled my scored target and we talked about it some more. Now he's willing to try it himself and see if he's up to the challenge.
This guy is an avid varmint hunter and is a good shot with a scoped bolt gun from a solid rest, but I think he will be humbled (as I still am from time to time) by the AQT. He's a get 'er done, goal oriented kind of guy (oilfield hand) and won't stop until he achieves Rifleman. By then, he'll be hooked like me and become another AQT disciple. ;D
[Now back to your regularly scheduled 7.62x51 programming.] 8)
I usually reload everything, but I was just looking, adding, and otherwise comparing, and decided I could pretty much buy surplus for what it costs me to reload it right now. Or at least be so close that I wouldn't want to stand on the cold garage floor loading it for the difference.
So given the choice, and IF costs were equal, in what order would you buy:
Yugoslav/GGG
Lithuanian/Prvi
Australian
I'm assuming the Aussie would be last, since it's berdan primed (Isnt it?).
All of the Aussie I have had was boxer primed.
Well, that changes things!
I just checked two sources of Aussie 7.62,and both list it as Berdan primed.
Different year or production plant being sold now perhaps?
I don't have any experience with the Aussie stuff, but have shot a bunch of the GGG and PPU. They'll get you rifleman scores.
However, when you do actually decide to reload them, keep in mind that the GGG brass weighs the same as Lake City surplus ;D and the PPU weighs the same as commercial >:(.
I believe the GGG is Lithuanian, the Prvi is Serbian, and the Aussie I have is definately berdan primed.
A lot of Igman (Yugoslavian) has hit the market in the last month or two.
The price is about the same as Prvi or GGG.
Any input?
This is a link to a good list of current deals covering a number of suppliers of 308 ammo.
http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=.308
Thanks, arpjoe. Here's another link that does the same thing (just in case you haven't found it yet): ;)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=630.0
ammoman.com
Igman made in Bosnia 7.62X51 M80 (2007, new manufacture) BOXER primed brass, cleaner than the Auzzie/SA and functions 100%
$499 per 1,000 deivered in 5-200rnd battle packs. 145gr FMJ
Got it in 7days. Very happy with it. The South African pales in comparison.
AU and SA are Berdan primed.
Fredness, do you know if it attracts a magnet? Inquiring CA minds want to know. ;D
Bob 210
I'm very please with the GGG/Litho .308 I just got from The Armory in Virginia Beach. $475/1000. Shipping was about $25/1000 which included the wooden case which seems like a good deal to me. See: http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/308_Ammunition.html
Shipping to NC was ONE day; ordered Monday, received Tuesday. Now THAT's cool! I have no interest in this business, just wanted to share my results. YMMV.
Bob210,
I called ammoman and the lithuanian is cali legal. I was thinking about having some sent out for the Piru shoot to try it out.
A store in Cerritos CA has 7.62x51 Lithuanian in stock.
The place is called Ammo Brothers-
http://www.ammobros.com/default.asp
Yes they are Appleseed friendly, they let me display fliers.
This is May 9, 2008
Does any one know of a source of 308 under $0.75 per round. I have been calling this week and there is none. I would settle for steel Wolf. Help, I have this nice M1A and I cant shoot it. Enough!!!!
Tony
Mine likes this pretty well:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Lithuanian_Surplus_M80_.308_7.62x51_146grn_FMJ.html
Thanks so much!!!
ordered 5 packs. should have ordered 50, but am 1 decimal place short of having enough money.
Tony
This likely has been posted before but here's another website that is regularly updated that shows all of the online ammo dealers, their stock and their pricing. I think you'll find LOT'S of .308 for under .50/round. Shipping seems to be the big hitch. Shop around. Some folks want $100 to ship 1000 rounds, others want just $25. http://www.rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=431