Rice Paddy Prone (also known as 'squatting')
Another lesson from our friend PF:
This position is mentioned in some of Fred's writings. Because of time constraints, Rice Paddy Prone will probably never be emphasized at a two-day Appleseed instructional shoot.
It should still be learned. Bringing it into your self-instructional program in your living room will provide variety and flexibility (literally and figuratively) to your schooling.
The Rice Paddy Prone (RPP) position is a field, as opposed to a range, position. It has some benefits, and some drawbacks. For its good side, it is quick to assume and relatively stable -- somewhere in between what you have in a good sitting position vs. what you have with most kneeling positions. Plus, it lessens your target signature by more than half while keeping you off ground that may be "questionable".
The reason that you want to learn this position is to be able to get off a good and fast supported first shot, while lessening the size of yourself. If you are jaylarking through the woods and have a sudden need to shoot at something, the RPP will serve you well.
The RPP position can be done with or without the use of a hasty sling. Unlike other shooting positions, this one benefits less, IMO, from the use of the sling. This may be because the position itself is so tight that adding a sling does not gain much.
To assume the RPP position, you set up in your foot stance for offhand, then crouch. Elbows are set forward of the knees. All body weight goes down to the butt, which rests against the calves. This is not a perched, but rather a relaxed and set position. Ground irregularities have to be assumed. If you can get both heels set flat on the ground, the position will benefit.
As you assume the position, immediately start deep breathing, watching your sights as they rise and fall. Adjust your position in order to get the sights tracking vertically through the target.
This is not a position that lends itself well to deep introspection, unlike the good thoughts that you can get from being in good prone or sitting positions. Being there in RPP for very long is going to hurt most people.
My advice: think first about why you need the RPP position in your toolkit. Then think of the position as an extension of your offhand position. Practice getting into it until you can get there fast and with good NPOA. Don't spend too much time in the position, rather spend the time figuring out how to get the right RPP position before you actually squat down.
These comments are not doctrine. They are an invitation to you to get out on the ground, try out the position, and to contribute your own ideas about what works for you.
This one gets used more by me in real life than sitting or prone.
First due to a weight gain, and usually something is in the way, in
full prone (tall grass or brush). Gives just a smidge of height over
sitting, and is steadier than standing :)
I like this position, even though I've heard it's recently fallen out of favor due to recoil issues with some shooters?
I keep my heels down and get a nice deep squat, feels gooooood. :)
Most of us use kneeling instead, because it's almost as fast (close enough, btw) and much more stable than RPP.
It's not 'out of favor' due to recoil. It's not even 'out of favor'.
It's a good, quick, accurate position.
It's time constraints of the weekend format, plus it's a young, slender man's position, and most AS attendees tend to be older, and most of them - do I have to say it? - with a few extra pounds...
FWIW, I received the following just now:
QuoteFred,
While I am not the PC type - I am loathe to offend even one potential Rifleman. I think as instructors we should refer to this position as "Squatting" and let the "Rice Paddy Prone" moniker go away. Just a thought.
To which I replied - honestly, as I always do:
I can preach, I can order, I can beg, I can plead, I can remind - but we'll always be dealing with people who think there's some personal cachet - some 'coolness' - to saying "rice paddy prone".
And, of course, the principle that we are all free, independent, not-to-be-led Americans - who collectively amount to a herd of cats - was long ago established on our site... 8)
Whoever first invented the current expression for 'squatting' needs to be whipped with a wet noodle...
You have my permission to whack away at the notion - tell 'em it's [squatting] easier to type, fewer letters, for one thing... ;D To which, you will notice I've modified the title of my post.
'Squatting' is an honorable position, not much used by Americans, who are not traditionally squatters. but a position younger people can use to great advantage.
A while back, I was involved in a discussion whether "squatting" was allowed at A/S for safety issues. It was decided it was.
The issue is, you can be rolled over backwards by recoil, resulting in the muzzle going first straight up, followed by anywhere, depending on how the tumble proceeds. It is likely you will have a live round chambered and your finger on the trigger while this is going on!
So if someone wants to use it, esp with a .30 cal, explain the rocking to them. Watch their position for stability from recoil the first time they shoot in it and if they are rocking back excessivly coach them to a more stable set. If they can't make it work safely ask them to kneel or sit. It doesn't take much adjustment to go from unstable to stable, so it's easily fixed IF you and they are aware of the problem.
I thought I should attempt to get into this position so I could show it to folks who have difficulty getting into a sitting position. I had difficulty getting my heels flat, while maintaining stability, and I did it without a rifle in my hands. :-\ The sitting position took a bit of practice to get into. I will continue to work on this one too.
Thanks for bringing the squatting position back up. It had not yet come up at an AS that I have attended, but it might, and it is good to know how to respond, as well as to be able to demonstrate it.
I have found most people that can do RPP can also do kneeling, but not always the other way to.
Yup, old Nickle can't do sitting or RPP. My knees bother me something awful, as well as my ankles. Rheumatoid Arthritis.
I also learned from the Army about kneeling, in fact, it's a current requirement for M16/M4 qualification on pop-ups. 20 shots from foxhole supported (sandbag allowed), 10 shots prone unsupported (no sandbag) and 10 shots kneeling.
Fred's point about why don't teach it is the real deal. We teach a LOT of stuff in the 2 days of an Appleseed, and this is something they can learn on their own.
That being said, for those that can't do sitting or kneeling, it's worth a try.
As to being PC, well, I'll continue to call it RPP (if I even mention it, and I have to be asked to even discuss it), with a history of why it's called that (to keep your knee out of the rice paddy). The only Asians that could possibly be insulted are the Vietnamese, and considering we learned it to help keep their country free, I doubt any Vietnamese will be offended.
Nickle, you're not alone. I go kneeling too - same reason. Knees.
Way back when, I was taught the "rice paddy squat" - and if I'm right, it was named by the guy that brought it to everyone's awareness as a viable position.
For the young or extremely fit, it's VERY viable, as it limits movement very little. Quick to assume, quick to move from. Used it significantly at intermediate distance targets while on the move.
Since Appleseed has no significant time requirement for getting out of the intermediate position, I'd say this topic really doesn't relate to what we do. Getting into an intermediate position in a timely manner yes, getting out of it not so much. As far as a stable firing platform goes, the RPS isn't quite as stable as a good kneeling - I put it on par with speed kneeling. So why teach it?
This year, I caught that the same position was now referred to as the "Hanoi prone" or some such - I almost laughed.
And yes, I've seen people with 30 caliber rifles 'taken off guard' by the recoil. That I can think of, nobody has been "bowled over", but pushed a bit off balance yes. Flat on your feet. If you can't get flat on your feet, the feet are too close together.
Since Fred is going non-PC, I think I'll go that direction too. Henceforth I shall refer to the supine prone position as the "French Prone". To assume the French Prone position, lay down on your back.......
Bravo,
Thanks for the heads-up that ones feet are too close together if they can't be flat in the squatting position.
I will attempt that.
~SS
Also I found some exercise principles that have helped with this position.
Look up "goblet squats" and "overhead squats". (one link (http://www.davedraper.com/blog/2006/11/04/what-are-goblet-squats-goblet-squat-instruction/))
Goblet squats are a training tool to work towards overhead squats, and they really help you get low with good form.
I've also found this squatting position helps me in daily life --- I visualize Asian people I've seen squatting as they garden or even wait for the bus: they get super low and have their heels flat.
(http://img132.imagevenue.com/loc980/th_36978_1_122_980lo.jpg) (http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=36978_1_122_980lo.jpg)
This has always puzzled me, because when I squat in a Western fashion with heels up it seems I can never hold the position for very long because the back of my knees start to hurt/go numb/etc.
I've found keeping my heels flat greatly extends the time I can stay squatting comfortably. I drop into the heels flat squat all the time: i.e. to check out the lower shelf at the grocery store, or a bookshelf.
The position has helped my hip and ankle flexibility.
Yup! Flat feet, balance slightly towards the toes.
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There are people that learn by doing, and there are people that learn by any other way. If you're reading this and haven't tried it - try it! If you're reading this in the attempt to 'gain an education' and haven't BEEN to an Appleseed, then shame on you for wasting your time!
Bravo is on the mark on this one.
Rice Paddy Prone is fast, it's good, it's versatile, but it is secondary to teaching sitting and kneeling in the context of an Appleseed, IMHO.
I love it and shoot well from it (almost as good as traditional sitting), but I'm wiry and still relatively flexible. I learned it from Jeff Cooper, FWIW.
It's great to have in your tool kit, but only after you have gained competence in sitting, kneeling, prone, & standing. Learn it when you start to work on snap shots from standing.
I won't let anyone use it at an Appleseed.
Feel free elsewhere.
To unstable for some, who may want to do it just because of the cool name, or because Tactical Trick next to them is.
Is it useful? Sure. Needed at an Appleseed with all kinds of skill sets on the same line? No.
Unstable? Usually. Depends on the shooter.
Kinda like other things that have been cut. Simply is one more headache for the Instructors to watch over. No need to make already over worked folks have to decide if they feel comfortable with you doing it or not, plus it saves you the ego hit when they deem you too much of a hazard to risk it.
RPP? Just say no on the line. In the "real world", in the sh*t, in the rice paddy? Be my guest.
From Atlas, who like usual, says it well.
QuoteRice Paddy Prone is fast, it's good, it's versatile, but it is secondary to teaching sitting and kneeling in the context of an Appleseed, IMHO.
Yup
Where I find Rice Paddy Prone most useful is where I don't want to drop my precious body parts onto the deck....like say in an alley full of broken beer bottles or busted plate glass windows, in the middle of a cactus patch..... There are sometimes good reasons not to put your important parts on the ground. Imagine it's o' dark thirty and you have no ability to see whats actually on the ground under you but you want to get a little lower....
It also provides more mobility, it's marginally quicker to go from RPP to movement than it is from sitting or kneeling. To me, it's just another tool in the box and that's what we all should be working on....not every problem is a nail...good to have a pliers AND a hammer....even if we only use the pliers once or twice. Like all techniques it doesn't work for everyone and it will require some practice....but it is worth the effort to me.
This is what's so great about Appleseed. You learn the BASICS and you learn them quite well. Appleseed's core curriculum is going to teach you the basics of marksmanship and you can use that to build on and shape it into whatever you want.... at home.
RPP is useful for you? Great! (I like it too..... at home.)
There are a million positions to use and the situation may dictate using this variation or that variation but no matter what, you're using the same things you would be using if you were sitting. If you were prone. If you were standing.
Which one of the six steps do you not do in RPP?
There's simply no place for RPP during an AS event. I recently brought out my AR with a (*gasp!*) bipod attached to the end of it at an AS event. Even though I was subjected to some "questioning" by the staff ("What the heck is that thing?") I shot the course. I didn't use my bipod though as there's no place (or need) for a bipod at an AS event. Do I still like to shoot with a bipod? Sure. But I like to shoot with a bipod at home.
And do you know what I said right after I set up my bipod and settled in behind it?
"Step 1. Sight alignment......"
"Step 2. Sight picture....."
And on and on until I squeezed on an empty chamber (and then called the "shot")
View from the "Non-military, occassional shooter, gun rag reader."
Seen the photos (mostly in SOF) and know the basic history of it. When ya got bad knees, a little too much "spare tire" and lack a little in balance you learn it's not the position for you. Have tried, can keep the feet flat or balance...LOL ;D
Just an added thought on this topic:
I just tried this, and it's not weight or age that's the biggest problem, it's the attire!
This is just not a position suited to the ubiquitous Levi's [or should I say "denim jeans" since Levi's is anti-gun? Whatevah...] I'm certain that wearing a pair of slacks or a pair of jeans 3 sized too large like the kids do these days would alleviate a lot of the discomfort of assuming & holding this position...
Yup. Just tried it; swapped the jeans for a pair of Docker-equivalents w/ the identical 1.5" wide heavy leather belt, & it's like night & day! I bet if I lost the belt & put on suspenders it'd get even more fluid & comfy.
Now to just put in some practice! :t
Keep in mind this is for practicing AT HOME as this is not a position used at an Appleseed event.
I'm all for practicing anything shooting related and if you can do RPP you'll be able to do sitting/kneeling a lot easier because you'll be stretched out. Just remember, here on the forum, it's SOM! (Stay on Mission!)