Breathing, a vital part of the 6 steps, right?
Consistency. Difficult to be a rifleman without consistency, right?
I do my best to set my positions up so I am ready to fire after I've exhaled. I figure when I've exhaled I'm in the same spot every time (consistency). I figure at that point (if I've found my NPOA) I'm as relaxed as I'm going to get and the sights are aligned and on the target and all I've got to do is steps 5 and 6.
If my position is such that I have to stop prior to completing exhalation and hold the rest of that breath I would think it would be difficult to stop at the same place every breath. If not just right wouldn't a (small though it might be) certain amount of muscleing be required to compensate for the slightly different "spot" you end up at each partial exhalation?
What's the best way?
I have been taught to let 2/3rds to 3/4 of your breath out and take your shot, yes not very good for consistancy sake, but it was thought that you would have some O2 left in your lungs, if you didn't take the shot right away. This way you didn't have to rush the shot and you wouldn't start shaking from lack of O2.
I prefer the complete exhale.
It is the natural point of relaxation.
It is easily repeatable.
You have 3 to 5 seconds there w/o O2 deprivation problems, and you usually do not get any diaphramatic spasms.
But of course it is but one of the accepted methods and your mileage may vary. :D
You have a goal that you need to achieve which is to have the front sight stop in the same place in your aiming area each time you fire the rifle.
You guy's are worried about consistancy and stopping your breathing cycle at the same point each time. That is the tail wagging the dog. What is important is not where your breathing cycle stops. What is important is where the front sight stops as you increase pressure on the trigger. Your sights are guages which allow you to determine extremely small changes in your position. They are much more accurate than your exhaling until your lungs are empty. If you adjust your natural point of aim so that your front sight crosses the aiming area while you still have a comfortable amount of air in your lungs you will still be able to extract O2 from the air as you hold your breath. Stop your breath as your front sight settles into the aiming area in the same place each time while critically focusing on the front sight and smoothly increasing pressure on the trigger until the rifle fires and you will have the consistancy you want to achieve.
Doug in Virginia
VAshooter
When you stop your breath midcycle you don't want to do it violently or abruptly. As the front sight starts to settle into the aiming area ( I stop my breath on the down cycle of the sight) I start to constrict my breathing but don't shut it off completely. As the sight gets closer to my holding area I release smaller and smaller amounts of air so the sight slows and does not overshoot. I kind of sneek up on the sweet spot as I press on the trigger. I'm focusing hard on the front sight and focused on stopping the sight at the place I want. Just about when everything looks good and I've stopped my breath the rifle fires and I'm riding the recoil up and back down preparing for the next shot.
This may be too much for Appleseed but I revel in this stuff and can't stop commenting when M1A4ME pushes my buttons.
Doug in Virginia
VAshooter
That's the idea, Doug. If I don't ask the questions then lots of us sit around thinking one of two things. Either everybody does it the same (so there's no reason to bring it up) or I haven't heard of a better way than my way to I'm right.
Only by asking a group do you get the interaction necessary to work things out and determine if there is something that can be improved on.
Breathing, sling use, cheek weld, etc., etc. are all topics that are good to talk about not only for the benefit of the new folks coming into the forum but also for the rest of us that may be set in our ways (if there's something better out there).
Or you could just believe I like to start arguements.
Good god fellows!
I believe you have hit one my very problem! I was at the Hinesville Appleseed last weekend and while having a great tiem, my group to group consistency was, well.... poor is polite. I shot a 186, then a 139, then a 196 then a 160. Two each day with the first being my best.
Now the problem. I have one lung. The right one is still there, but the left one took a powder in 71 when I had my 2nd heart surgery as a 10 year old. I have pulmunary hypertension(high blood pressure in the lungs) as a result. As you can imagine, it plays heck with my shooting.
As a youngster, 14-18, I shoot indoor 50 foot ranges with 22 rifles and got pretty good. made sharpshooter NRA classification. Never could nail expert. But tried constantly. Later I got into NRA high Power shooting with My father in law. Great guy and super shot. I used a M1 Garand. Never shot above 376 out of 500. Father in Law though I'd do better with an AR. So I built one. Scored into the low 400's but never higher than 410. I quite doing High Power in 2001. lack of time, energy, teenagers in the house so on. And now back at it I'm dissapointed in my scores.
The way I was taught was also to let out 1/2 to 2/3 of the breath, pause, sight, shoot. that works ok, but I'll never make Rifleman class with that technique. Grin and JB did the NPOA drill and I was dancing all over from high left to low right in a diagonal line and my breathing was all that could be a variable. I never shifted my body. so rading this I must have been letting out differing amounts of hot air and muscling the rifle into place only to loose it when I was exhausted and or out of O2. And for me, running out of O2 is pretty fast sometimes.
I cant wait to get back to the range this weekend and try something new. I'll get my NPOA at the full exhale range and try to line up on that and see if my score go up. I mean, I'm really happy my son made Rifleman last weekend, but he can't be allowed to think he's that darn good. ;D
Darn it, he really is. He wasn't even trying hard. :P I hate youth!!!It's wasted on the young!
cannonman61,
If your sights are not going straight up and down as you breath you have position problems.
1. Are you shooting right handed or left handed?
2. If your sights are moving at an angle your position is not supporting the rifle.
3. Is your support hand directly under the rifle?
4. Does your trigger arm move under recoil?
5. Do you press your face into the stock so that your shooting eye is directly behind the rear sight?
6. Do you use a loop sling or a hasty sling and if so are you using it correctly?
You cannot get a natural point of aim until you have a solid supporting position. You cannot position your front sight by breathing until you develop your natural point of aim. You can't take the second step until you have taken the first step. You and I need to talk. I can make this all much easier for you than it is now.
Doug in Virginia
VAshooter
VA,
The sights seem to go up and down as I breath.
I am right handed
I seem to keep tight groups, then loose the last on to the lower left
I shoot an AR so I get it as close to perpendicular as I can, but the mag prevents 90 degree the way I hold it.
I have a kisser button right behind the sight for the same spot on stock every time. I hope.
I use a hasty sling and according to Grin I was using it ok. At least he didnt say anything about it.
With the AR and that pistol grip, I have trigger issues I dont seem to have with a regular stocked rifle. ie, I grip it so my finger is to far into the trigger. Dragging plastic?
I still think its breathing control as my offhand is always in the high forties. And in prone I am sucking wind from the get go without even mounting the rifle. The weight of my body on my chest/abdomen makes it that much harder to get O2 throught the old system.
I hope changing my breath pattern to a full exhle helps. I don't know though. Maybe I am just doing so many things wrong it may take a while to get all the bugs out.
CNM61
Cannonman61
If you are having problems breathing in the prone position then that is where we need to start. You can't shoot consistantly well if you are out of breath. Since you are running at 50% to begin with we need to find a prone position which will allow you to breath as easily as possible. Are you pulling the right leg up enough so that you take the weight off your chest? I don't mean enough so that Fred stops kicking you, I really mean so that you rotate your body around to the left. You will probably need to go to a loop sling , high on your left arm and short enough so that it crosses your left arm pretty high above the elbow. This will make a shorter triangle out of your support arm and raise the rifle higher off the ground. This may allow you to get your support arm more directly under the rifle. It will raise the rifle and your position which will get your chest off the ground as much as possible.
Play with this position at home until you achieve a position that allows you to breath. Then we need to work on having the rifle cycle straight up and down. When you can do that you can find your natural point of aim so that you can completely relax and the rifle just lays there pointed at the target. Since you are working with less O2 I would not recommend the total exhale method of breathing because you will be fighting for O2 sooner than the rest of us. I would rcommend you adjust your point of aim so that your sight passes through the target while you still have a comfortable amount of air in your lung. Don't try to hold your breath with your chest muscles. Use your throat to cut off your breath and ease up on the breath as your front sight gets close to your holding area. Focus your shooting eye as hard as you can on the front sight and settle into the aiming spot as you increase pressure on the trigger. The shot should break within a second or two of reaching the aiming area. Hold the trigger back through recoil and then release until the trigger resets. Now you are ready to begin the steps for the next shot.
If it is always the last shots that go wide I would think you are running out of air before the end of the string. a little less air than you need for each shot and it adds up at the end. Try these things and write down the results as you become aware of them so that you don't forget anything.
If the board want we can take this to PM or if anyone is interested in how to sort out a shooting problem we can stay here and work it out.
Doug in Virginia
VAshooter
This subject would best be discussed right here. There may be other people having similar problems, and they, as well as any Instructors, would benefit from the discussion.
I will add that you should ALWAYS cut your breath off with your throat, never your chest muscles. Tightening the chest muscles to cut the breath off causes the same problems as failure to get proper NPOA.
When you break the shot, your muscles have a tendency to relax. This is why NPOA is so important, as if NPOA is wrong, during the time the bullet is in the barrel, the POA changes, and you get a flier. Same thing happens, to a lesser degree, when you hold your breath with your chest muscles.
Cannonman, it is very normal for people to shoot higher scores standing than prone. Remember, the target is 4 times larger, and our groups usually only 2 to 3 times larger.
Looking at VA Shooter's explanations and list of things to try exactly justifies my reasons for asking these questions here in the manner I ask them. Thanks.
I may not agree with everything suggested or try it myself. However, as we are many different people what works for one may not work for another so the larger the number of suggestions made by those of us with more experience the better chance we have of helping more people.
Doug's done and seen a lot of shooting and has the experience and willingness to help out (when I push your buttons.) ;D ;D
I talked with SOM about this very thing at BC1. I suggested spending more time on getting positions correct and then you can work on the other things.
If your position is not correct, nothing else works as it should.