Some thoughts on telescopic sights.
#1 they are almost always mounted with insufficient eye relief and improper height above bore for the shooter.
#2 The magnification is always too high.
#3 scope manufacturers give very poor guidance on setting up a scoped rifle.
Sam
Some MOREthoughts on telescopic sights.
#1 they are almost always mounted with insufficient eye relief and improper height above bore for the shooter. (Yeah, I'd like to have a bunch of parts at every 'seed..different height mounts, rail extensions, etc(You should see the "cheek piece I made for my 795)
#2 The magnification is always too high. (I like a lot of magnification sometimes, It helps me to see how much I'm wiggling and jiggling, tryin' to fool myself about NPOA)
#3 scope manufacturers give very poor guidance on setting up a scoped rifle. ( That's why we have such a great instructor corp. A shining beacon in a land of darkness. (That darkness is caused by incorrect eye relief))
Wheeler44
Hi, guys
What scope and setup do you recommend for the Wally-World Special LTR?
Best, Sean O'
A good 3-4 power FIXED scope...i'm thinking an old Weaver. I can't really help here, i'm a wh*re for good glass. I've got a 4x Leupy on my scoped loaner LTR and Tech-sights on the other one. I've never had good experience with any glass cheaper than Burris. IF you keep a look out, you can a 2-7 Ballistic Plex for around $125.
-David
Edgewood, NM
Get a low power scope. I've a 2.5 power "shotgun" scope on my CAR15 and it works great for the short ranges that rifle is used at. I've seen folks fire rifleman scores with Eotechs and they have no magnification - but less than perfect eyes can see that red dot even if they can't see the front sight.
If you get a variable you're probably better off setting it on a low power setting. I've had a 4X12 on my M1A for almost 30 years and I keep it set on 8 power most of the time, even when shooting the pop ups at Ramseur. The important thing is for you to be able to "see" well enough to hit the target. Being able to see where each bullet hits for new folks just piles on the pressure and frustration. If you learn to shoot your rifle you don't need to see where the bullet is hitting during the AQT stages as you'll "know" where it's hitting when you call your shots.
I have nothing but "cheap" scopes. Mostly used. Never paid more than $75 for one. The only scope failure I've had is an old 4X steel tubed Weaver that's who knows how old or how hard it was used before I got it. It "failed" on my Ruger 10/22 - horizontal cross hair broke. My other 3 old fixed power steel tube Weaver's are all still working fine on 30.06's.
No doubt you get what you pay for (most of the time).
I've got Cabela's Pine Ridge scopes on my 795 and 10/22. The magnification range is 2 to 7, and I usually set it on 4. They cost about $70, plus shipping, and work great.
On the 10/22, I have the scope on an extended mount from Brownell's, which gives me plenty of relief, especially in the prone position. I can't find something similar for the Marlin. Any suggestions?
For the height, on both rifles, I use a car wax applicator from Wal-Mart. It is cloth, circular, blue in color, and is the larger of the two they stock. I wrap it across the comb and tape it on with clear packing tape. I also carry a few of these to Appleseeds for anyone who needs one.
Assuming that by Wally World LTR you mean a 10-22, make sure that whatever mount you have has the 3/8" grooved rail instead of Weaver. That gives you many more options for adjustment, lets you place the rings wherever you want. The extended mount like Dond spoke of are good but still limit you for where you can place rings unless you are good with a file.
As the ideal glass, hunt the gunshows and find an old Weaver K2.5 or K3 and get it as far out front as you can.
For those that are still in early learning it is best if they cannot see the bullet holes Leupold used to make a 1.5x4 that was good too. Until you learn teh rifle well, I think it best to use the scope only for keeping a single focal plane and not for magnification.
Sam
Along the lines of what SamD was saying...Bushnell makes their Banners in a 1.5-4.5x32 that is great for LTR-type applications. Part # 711545, IIRC. Solid, fairly durable scope with adequate eye relief for our needs. At under $70, its got a good price point, too. I've got 4 or 5 Banners on different rifles used for different applications. Most were bought when I had more need than $$$...and I haven't yet broken one. Glass is clear enough and they hold zero well for my applications.
Nothing close to a decent Leupold or Nikon as far as light transmission, clarity, or for taking that once-in-a-lifetime shot on an Elk or anything, but good enough for our needs.
2 more pennies...
Byrdman
Good morning, Gentlemen!
This is really good stuff. It's exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate your thoughts immensely.
Best to all, Sean O'
P.S. The "Wally-World Special" is the Ruger 10/22 with the 22" stainless steel barrel, sold principally at Wal-Mart.
Howdy
Not to hijack the thread...
While we are at it, I got a Marlin 795 and think I need glass. I'm not sure the TechSights will work for my eyes, and I am concerned about eye fatigue using peep sights for 2 days straight. The stock sights are tough for me to focus (clearly see) on the front post. I am cash challenged and can't afford to try both, but I can pick up dovetail rings and cannibalize another rifle temporarily. With your advice please.
My wife has a 10/22 with a Bushnell 3x9 32, but it has weaver rail/raised mounts so she can use iron sights also. This Marlin would be the first rifle I have ever scoped. When I use hers I had to pull my head well back so that I don't get a fuzzy dark "ring" around the reticle. I slid the mounts all the way forward and still get the ring. If I dont do full extension on turkey neck, it is better. I dont have dovetail mounts to mount te scope on the 795 and compare.
I was considering the same scope with dovetail mounts on the 795, but i don't know how to determine if the scope is too high, if it can be cured by a cheek pad, etc.
Basically, I am lost on how to correctly mount a scope or how high, cheek pad or raised mounts, etc. Any help or pointers to outside sources would be great. I want to use the Marlin for the Oct 3-4 shoot in Florida.
Thanks for all advice! When pointed in the right direction, I am scary ^-^
The issue with scopes is being able to get a solid repeatable cheek weld. Even with the scope your eye must be in the same spot behind the scope for each shot. Some stocks/rifles work well as they are for some people. If not you may need a longer stock, a way to move the scope farther forward than normal, a way to raise the spot on the stock your cheek contacts,.....
You have to be consistent. The same methods of "fixing" the scope/rifle don't work for everyone due to everyone having a different body "construction".
I have "cheek" risers on some rifles to give me a good cheek weld. Some rifles are fine as they are. I have mounts on some rifles that moves the scope forward (towards the muzzle).
Some scopes have a "wider" range for your eye placement forward/rearward vs. others. Some have an adjustment for parallax, meaning you can adjust the scope for the range/distance you are shooting. When you have this type of scope and make the adjustment correctly it greatly reduces the effects of slightly different eye alignment behind the scope vs. bullet point of impact on the target (if you don't have your rifle "fixed" to give you a repeatable cheek weld.) You usually only see scopes with parallax adjustment capability on high powered fixed power scopes or variable power scopes where the highest "power" setting is above 9.
Quote from: panhead on August 17, 2009, 10:28:19 AM
Howdy
Not to hijack the thread...
While we are at it, I got a Marlin 795 and think I need glass. I'm not sure the TechSights will work for my eyes, and I am concerned about eye fatigue using peep sights for 2 days straight. The stock sights are tough for me to focus (clearly see) on the front post. I am cash challenged and can't afford to try both, but I can pick up dovetail rings and cannibalize another rifle temporarily. With your advice please.
My wife has a 10/22 with a Bushnell 3x9 32, but it has weaver rail/raised mounts so she can use iron sights also. This Marlin would be the first rifle I have ever scoped. When I use hers I had to pull my head well back so that I don't get a fuzzy dark "ring" around the reticle. I slid the mounts all the way forward and still get the ring. If I dont do full extension on turkey neck, it is better. I dont have dovetail mounts to mount te scope on the 795 and compare.
I was considering the same scope with dovetail mounts on the 795, but i don't know how to determine if the scope is too high, if it can be cured by a cheek pad, etc.
Basically, I am lost on how to correctly mount a scope or how high, cheek pad or raised mounts, etc. Any help or pointers to outside sources would be great. I want to use the Marlin for the Oct 3-4 shoot in Florida.
Thanks for all advice! When pointed in the right direction, I am scary ^-^
If you are under 40, you shouldn't have any problem with "eye fatigue". I shot my first Appleseed entirely with Tech-Sights...never did have any problems. I was 33 then, about to be 34. I've just heard that if you're over 40 or 50 and/or you smoke a lot, your circulation within the retina isn't as good so you might be better off with a scope.
I personally think it's better to learn with Irons. While we hope it never happens, in any bad scenario, it'll only take a few months before everyone is back to Iron sights.
And everything transfers from Iron sights to scope...in other words, if you can shoot good with irons, you'll have no trouble shooting well with a scope. If you shoot well with a scope, you still need some work to shoot well with Irons. Kinda like driving and the difference between a manual transmission and an automatic. Anyone that can drive a manual can drive an automatic but the reverse isn't true.
-David
Edgewood, NM
Quote from: SamD on August 16, 2009, 10:58:51 AM
Some thoughts on telescopic sights.
#1 they are almost always mounted with insufficient eye relief and improper height above bore for the shooter.
#2 The magnification is always too high.
#3 scope manufacturers give very poor guidance on setting up a scoped rifle.
Sam
Spot on Sam. It's impossible to build a good position with a scope a mile high and too far back.
As for LTR scopes, the Wal Marts in my area have recently put a clearance on the scopes they keep on the display behind the ammunition counter. I picked up a BSA fixed power 4x32 scope there for $17! I know BSA isn't the greatest quality ever, but its perfect for an LTR. Buy the lowest rings you can find, and generally put the scope as far forward as possible, by putting the rings as far forward on the reciever as your hardware will allow, and putting the scope as far forward in the rings as possible (the turret base should be up against one of the rings) -- but be sure to check it by shouldering the rifle sighting through the scope before you tighten down the rings. I actually prefer the grooved picatinny rails to the old 3/8" dovetail rails... I've seen way too many rings slide back on those dovetail bases, even on rimfires. If your rifle only has a dovetail base, put the rings on with the tightening screws on opposite sides of the base, and snug them up good. Its a good idea to re-tighten them after one firing session.
I bought the last of those BSA scopes from my wally world, but I wish they had more... I would buy them all and put them on this site. They really are perfect LTR scopes, and you can't beat the price. The 32mm lens lets it fit the really low mounts too, and it still takes in plenty of light for a 4 power.
Thanks guys!
Yep, the eyes are 50 plus years old, glasses for over 40 of them. I used to shoot iron sights only and swore that scopes were only for p- uh, people other than me...and I still do shoot iron, but not anywhere near Rifleman standards. I can't blame this only on my eyes though.
The 795 isn't drilled, it only has dovetails. I don't have a shop nearby that does/carries a lot of optical stuff, you kinda are welcome to buy anything they have in stock. I knew accessories are limited for the Marlin, but that shouldn't apply to scopes. I have the scope rings all the way towards the muzzle in the dovetails, turret almost bumping (1/8") the back of the front ring.
The car wax sponge idea and recoil pad to lengthen the stock are great ideas. I just was wondering which way to start. I am a "normal size dood" 5'10" 175 32" sleeves, so I figured I fit most standard rifles and just went with the flow. But now that I am considering a scope, it seems the stocks (10/22 and 795) may be too short for correct eye relief with a scope when I turkey neck, which I had never attempted because I didn't know it it existed. I never worried about cheek weld or consistent eye placement from shot to shot. I sat at the bench fat and happy just to be a 2nd amendment kinda guy :-[
Or maybe I am going about this all wrong?
Guess I got more learnin to do. I know I did "fuss the shot" with my loaner "scoped 10/22" the last AS. A big part was because the scope (50 yd parallax) wasn't adjusted for me, I thought I would "pick up a sighted in rifle from the rack" and go. It was set up for my wife (who is not 5'10") and shoots off a bench with a front rest. So I missed something there, but that was all the thought I had put into showing up with a rifle cleaned and zeroed. I was going to breeze thru the weekend and take home my patch **)
Do the rings come in standard height measurements? I know they do for tube diameter, but how about "flush", 1/4" above flush, 1/2" above flush, something like that?
Sorry for the noobie questions. Someday we will all look back on this and laugh :))
The rings I've seen are all sized in terms of "high," "medium," and "low"... they usually come with guidelines that tell you how large a lens your scope can have in millimeters and still clear... that's the last number in scope size (a 3-9x42 has a 42mm lens, a 4x32 has a 32mm, etc), but those guidelines will vary by rifle and by the receiver/barrel configuration.
Pan,
right there with you buddy....
PM me your phone # & a good time to call....I type too slow to put all this down, even tho' it would help clarify stuff for other folks as well....
TTYS
LayloPro
You are not any larger or longer limbed that average Joe and the 795 and 10/22 (in standard configurations) are not short rifles. Look at moving the scope farther forward as opposed to lengthening the stock. Depending on the fullness of your cheek you may need a higher comb but you do not need a longer stock.
Modern scopes are not made for useful function, and the offered combinations of rings are horrid.
Also do your adjustment of scope placement the prone position, where your ability to move your head is at it's least.
Get the eyepiece as close over the back of the receiver as you can.
depending on teh layout of your scope you may need an extended mount or a different scope entirely.
Sam
Thanks much everyone.
LayloPro - PM sent
SamD - didn't think to do that in prone, just sitting my chair. Great idea!
For M1 Garands and M1A's consider the "scout" scope mounts like the Ameaga Ranges unit.
The scope is very low to the barrel (much lower than than the receiver mounts) and there aren't the eye relief issues you have with the receiver mounted scopes. The scopes used on those barrel mounts are "long eye relief" scopes so where ever your head/cheek is on the stock (as long as it's consistent) won't be an issue like the receiver mounted scopes.
I don't know if similar mounts are available for the .22 rifles or not.
panhead,
I own three 795's with two scoped. Once again Wally World/ China Mart has the "Crown Point" in a 3x9, it comes with mounting rings, lense caps, red & green lighted mil dot with 2 batteries, paperwork explaining 'how to', and often a scope cover. Price is about $70 out the door.
I mounted them as far forward as possible and haven't needed a cheekpiece. When you put it on remember NOT to crank down and bend/crimp the tube, a common mistake. Use a laser to help mount it. Go shoot it and see if you can get it on target without bottoming the adjustment. Then drag out the blue loc-tite (home depot), apply it there on the range, take out one screw, loc-tite and replace it, and re-shoot it to be sure it's still on.
Suggest you use the '4' (or '5') power to shoot at this distance. Using a higher power won't help 'see' better. It will allow you to see the jiggling/motions more, 'fuss the shot', and magnify so you can see the holes and forget everything else you've been taught.
I'd also suggest you bring at least 4 different brands of 22 ammo to shoot 1" squares on a bench rest and determine which brand your particular rifle likes/shoots best. Then go and buy all of that brand and 'lot #' you can.
Having the rifle set up correctly is good but not an excuse for thinking the shot will magically appear in the 'x' without practice. Speaking with instructors, having them spend one on one time with you, practicing at home and 'knowing' all the intricacies of the first day of teaching will do more. 'Become one with the teachings, grasshopper'. It is fun when all of a sudden it 'dawns' on you.
best wishes and welcome. You an old time motorcycle rider with that moniker?
CSHR
CSHR
Howdy
Thanks to you and all others who have replied. Just got off the phone with LayloPro, he had good points and tips too, and to have have typed all Q&As here would have been painful...phones are good sometimes.
I will post results after I assimilate all I have learned and put it into play. many thanks again everyone.
I don't expect to buy my way to a patch. I bought golf clubs from a buddy like that, he'd buy the latest gear but refused to take lessons, "costs too much". Somehow, his game never improved.
I got some great feedback and no flame jobs. Quite a productive day!
Anyone else who cares to, PLEASE chime in, I really like this place.
Yep, used to ride a 65 FLH. Still got the name, not the scooter. Kinda wish I did...but I might not be here now
Some scopes are specifically desinged for short range focus and parralax. Rimfire scopes are short range focus and parallax settings. Scopes designed for shot gun use are built to take recoil, and also have close focus and short range parralax adjusted.
To check the scope's parallax, you need something to look at approx 82ft away. Holding the scope with two hands rested on a counter or other steady object. Then move your head around, This changes the angle your line of sight passes throught the lense. If the cross hair moves around on the target then that scope's parallax is not adjusted for that range.
Many scopes desinged for centerfire use are set around 150 yards, Scopes desinged for rimfire or shotgun should be set around 50 yards. More expensive scopes have an adjustment for parallax and focus.
Even higher end scopes have seperate parallax and focus adjustments.
When my eyes were younger I could and did use old weavers on .22s, but now I am willing to spend more to see.
My extra rifles do get duties other than appleseed.
There are many reputable manafactures who market good rimfire scopes.
Howdy
I found a well used Bushnell Sportview 4X 15mm with dovetails and slapped that on the 795. I left the settings alone, figuring they would be close to paper, since I don't have a boresighter. Uhh, nope.
Out of 33 shots, I found 16 on paper, 3 sets of 5 in approx inch groups, and 1 unexplained, none were near where I was aiming. I was shooting groups of 5 off a bench with sandbags. It was old cardboard, so I don't know where the rest went. I only had about 30 minutes after ROing to try to set up before the range closed. I shot from 25 yards and it was sprinkling and hard to see the holes in the wet cardboard.
So it was working, so was the Marlin. Gonna be a nice LTR!
I need to try again. I did like the magnification, but the scope doesn't let in much light. It magnified the target just enough to see the bulls better, but I couldn't see well enough to fuss the shot. I was cranking the screws about 1/4 turn at a pop after each group, it has no clicks. The rings moved about 3/8" in 33 shots without Loctite...
I am debating a 1" rimfire scope with 3-9x and leaving it turned down. Something with decent rings. It will stay on the .22 most likely. The Sportview seems to basically be a pellet gun setup, but it proved a point for cheap.
Quote from: SamD on August 16, 2009, 10:58:51 AM
Some thoughts on telescopic sights.
#1 they are almost always mounted with insufficient eye relief and improper height above bore for the shooter.
#2 The magnification is always too high.
#3 scope manufacturers give very poor guidance on setting up a scoped rifle.
Sam
#4 everyone expects excellent results with a $10 set of mounts/rings without a lot of fuss.
simply screwing on a set of bases/rings and dropping in a scope is not "mounting" a scope. There's a lot more to it than first appears. That is if you actually expect it to work and hold zero.
Putting a cheap scope in a good set of mounts will provide better results than mounting a really good scope in cheap flimsy mounts. Given the choice I would never use an aluminum ring that mounts to a 3/8" grooved receiver.
If you're going to use an inexpensive scope, if at all possible get a fixed power. You can get a variable but only expect it to be zero'd at 1 magnification. Set it and leave it there. Don't expect the clicks to be precise or consistent.
I'm not saying you need to spend a bundle to get a useable setup. Just that you have to live within the limitations of what you choose.
YMMV
All the 795 has is a grooved receiver, no drillings or tapped. Are there higher quality dovetail mounts that don't slide? Or something else that is the hot setup short of drill & tap?
The Sportview is not something I would want to try to find good rings for because of its' built-in cheapness.
I would be willing to get some decent 1" rings so they could be used for other applications
Get a set of the Weaver rings for 1" on dovetail and make sure the movable jaw is properly oriented. The newer ones have a mild serration that will hold much better on the grooved reveiver.
If you can't find those put a dab of Loctite380 ie. "Black MAx" on the movable jaw. It will not come loose.
Sam
Quote from: panhead on August 26, 2009, 05:35:31 PM
All the 795 has is a grooved receiver, no drillings or tapped. Are there higher quality dovetail mounts that don't slide? Or something else that is the hot setup short of drill & tap?
The Sportview is not something I would want to try to find good rings for because of its' built-in cheapness.
I would be willing to get some decent 1" rings so they could be used for other applications
Get a set of 3/8" dovetail to Weaver adapters. The ones with 2 screws for each base. Each adapter provides about 1" of contact area with the dovetail and helps keep it from sliding in the groove. I also use nylon reinforced clear fingernail polish on the base when I put them on, it's the poormans version of loctite.
Once the adapters are installed your ring choices are almost endless. The biggest advantage to the weaver ring is the cross bolt to keep them from slipping.
Most of the rimfire rings are soft and/or narrow and don't have enough contact area with the dovetail to keep them from slipping.
I saw a Bushnell Sportsman 4X 32 today that I think I will pick up next week. The shop had a set of medium Millet rings that had an adjustable windage screw so the scope could be roughed in without using up the clicks. I never heard of Millet before, is this good stuff?
Millet rings are good stuff.
My nephew learned a valuable lesson this weekend about cheap scopes and Loc-Tite.
He'd bought a $5 scope at a gun show and put it on the LTR I gave him. Said it helped him see the target better. Well, that lasted for about 30 minutes in Tropical Storm Danny (rain, some fairly torrential, ALL DAY). After that 30 minutes, you couldn't see a damn thing through the scope! I loaned him my personal LTR, which sports a Weaver K-7 2.5-7x scope. The LTR with the Weaver ran all day flawlessly.
That night, he put his Tech-Sight rear sight again. And didn't Loc-Tite it down. I asked him about it Sunday morning and found out that no, he didn't use the Loc-Tite. "Those are gonna work their way loose today, Ben.", says I. Well, about 200 rounds (figure 1 Redcoat, one 1" squares and about 3 AQTs) later, he said "Uncle Ross, my groups are really getting large and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I think my front sight is loose." Front sight was fine... the rear sight was just flopping around, though.
Lessons:
Don't buy a cheap scope; they're more expensive in the long run when you have to replace them.
Use Loc-Tite.