I am thinking about getting a .308 rifle.
The M1As are running too much money, $1500 or so from what I can find.
A DSA Fal can be had for around $1000, any opinions on the quality and reliability of these?
Then there are the .308 ARs, I can probably put one together for around $1000. Not my first choice as I'd be looking at Bushmaster or DPMS etc., but I have an open mind :)
There is also the BM59 that looks quite tempting, although finding magazines can be hard so I read.
Any help is most appreciated.
Myself if I was going to buy a .308 rifle and wanted simi auto and not spend to much money I would look for an M-1 Garand in .308 (be sure that the barrel was changed out and not done with just a camber insert) I like the sights better then the FAL or the Hk type rifles ,best bet imho is to try a few rifles and see what You like if you try an M-1a you just miaght find out you like it enough that it is worth the money ,look on the web you miaght find a good used m-1a in your price range ,On the BM-59 A real bm-59 is Really pricey($2500? from reese surpluse )pluse parts cost for spares and mags a very nice rifle but what could you buy in the way of an m-1a for the same amount.
just my 2 cents
Wade
$600ish for a Century CETME/G3. I have seen some pretty nice ones. I have personally owned several Armalite AR10s. Nothing but good things to say about them. You could also get a Chinese M14 for $800 or less. Keep your eye on Gunbroker.com.
I got to shoot an FN FAL full auto not too long ago. That was one of the coolest experiences shooting I've ever had :~
My impression of the FAL is that it's more of an assault rifle, better suited to applications where you need to lay a volume of fire down NOW and accuracy is not the foremost concern. I'm not saying they're not accurate, but the ergonomics seem to suggest a different type of fighting gun. The way I was trained to fight with a carbine, using the left hand for bolt and magazine manipulations, works well with the FAL, but I think it is more difficult when using a sling for precise firing. It seems like an extremely reliable rifle and the magazines seem to be easily available and inexpensive.
To me, the M14 is the quintessential Rifleman's rifle in .308. Just give me a stock rifle with USGI synthetic stock and I can pretty much hit anything (maybe not anything, but the rifle inspires a lot of confidence). It's one rifle where it seems like adding on a bunch of extras (optics bipods, etc...) detract from the utility of the rifle. Knowing how to shoot the basic rifle makes it much handier than all that extra crap.
My go anywhere/do anything rifle would be the 18" standard weight barreled M14/M1A. Like Wade says, you might find that it's worth the money.
--Todd
Dont forget about the 308 Saiga going for about 400.00 now. Yes you will need to put about 150.00 into it for pistol grip conversion and such but we have all metal US 20 round mags now. Its a 2 MOA shooter with decent brass ammo, not picky, and you can dump mud into the receiver and still work.
Why .308? If a Garand is anywhere in your vision the 30.06 ammo from the CMP is way cheaper than any .308 you can buy right now.
If .308 is "it", then consider not only initial cost, but the cost of accessories (scope/scope mount/magazines, etc) and spare parts.
I believe the FAL to be a viable option for a rifleman's rifle, so long as you get the 21" version so you can squeeze all the velocity you can out of the 308 cartridge. Contrary to popular believe, 308 isn't a barn burner so you need all the barrel length you can get for velocity. I really like the FAL...i've shot a friend's STG-58 a few times and had little problem getting hits on deer silhouettes out to 600 yards prone with irons. And i'm not an awesome shooter either. Getting hits out to 400 yards with a FAL is easy...at 600 it takes some concentration. I'd suggest the fully built guns from DSA. They're top notch. Plus the sights are easy to upgrade...hooded rear and ground front post don't cost much.
I've also got a PTR-91. It's a nice truck gun but it recoils quite a bit more than the FAL and is brutally hard on brass. If you get one, stick with the PTRs with the 18" barrel. You can get those for around $1100 if you look. Lots of the CETME's have barrel indexing problems according to BGB...sights can't be aligned because of the monkeys at Century putting the guns together.
I still plan to pickup an M1A...but I don't think they're that superior to a FAL. M1A sights are better. FAL Mags are cheaper. M1A safety is in the trigger-guard...not as safe. FAL safety is in the AR position, although harder to reach. M1A is American made. DSA Fals are American made.
I just don't think that having one M1A is as good as having 1.8 DSA STGs. And even at today's inflated prices, good FAL mags are under $20. Good M1A mag's are closer to $30.
-David
Edgewood, NM
the .308 doesn't need more than 18" of barrel length for velocity. Velocity difference from a 24" barrel to 18" barrel is less than 100fps. 21" to 18" less than 50fps.
300 Win needs about 22 inches of barrel, velocity drop going from 26" to 22" was about 150fps.
Unless you are loading up some special heavy bullet long range ammo with really slow burning powder you don't need as much barrel as most think.
Besides, an 18-20 inch barrel is more handy, provided you are not looking for sight radius.
What do most of you M1A guys have - old milsurps or the current springfield?
Hoyo:
Find some friends with all 3.
Shoot all 3.
See which one you like best. You will know.
Buy it.
The $500 difference between those expensive M1A's (there has to be cheaper) and those DSA FALs ($1000 seems actually cheaper than I remember) is less than a case of Ammo.
I have been reading what everyone has to say and this is what I think so far :)
I really shy away from the HKs because I would like to reload.
The M1A/M1 and FAL are on the table, though I am really leaning towards the M1A as it's hard to go wrong buying something as well built.
And I have nothing against the 30-06 either, so that is certainly an option.
Being British the CMP ammo isn't an option for me, and the price of ammo that I have checked out seems to be about the same at retail of 06 and 308.
Handling and firing them is a very sensible suggestion, and will be my next move O0
I appreciate the heads up regarding the Saiga also :)
I love my FAL, but cannot compare it to other .308's since I haven't shot any of the examples mentioned here.
Here are a couple things I like.
- The FAL is very accurate out to 500 yards, with the right loads.
- The breach breaks like a shotgun so that in about 5 seconds you can have the bolt assembly out of the rifle for cleaning.
- The gas chamber has 4 settings for single fire through dirty rifle mode.
- The gas assembly come apart in about 5 seconds for cleaning.
- There are a plethera of accessories for the FAL.
- Repair and replacement parts are available just about anywhere.
- Magazines, strippers and guides are cheap compared to most.
- Great adjustable long-range sights, and home of the SUIT optic platform.
- Where ever you go, people want a gander at your rifle!
Now if I could just get someone to lug the thing around for me. IT'S HEAVY!!!
Yep. You can clean a FAL and an HK91 from the breech. Not so on an M1A. And if you get a REAL semi M14 like an LRB with a forged receiver like a FAL, plan on spending a good deal more than an M1A. M1A receivers are investment cast. Real military M14s are forged. And every 50 to 100 fps makes a big difference at distance.
And you can reload brass from an HK91. You just get a port buffer for $50 like mine and it reduces the damage...but you still have to find the stuff...it really slings it.
Still, I think the best solution is to buy all three. I'm on that road myself.
-David
Edgewood, NM
Quote from: Old Dog on July 21, 2009, 02:44:21 PM
Why .308? If a Garand is anywhere in your vision the 30.06 ammo from the CMP is way cheaper than any .308 you can buy right now.
If .308 is "it", then consider not only initial cost, but the cost of accessories (scope/scope mount/magazines, etc) and spare parts.
I can only speak for myself. The Garand is a great rifle both historically and practically I am in no way casting stones at Grandpa here. It is without a doubt the finest weapon of war the greatest generation produced at a time it was needed.
It has some real issues in design that in my opinion separate it from modern military pattern rifles. The lack of removable magazine isn't just a minor item to me. Loading from the top with clips is fine (you likely only get M1 thumb once), but whats going into the receiver along with the ammo, dirt, mud, blood, etc. Then there's the "Im out kill me" ping. It really does want only surplus ammo since
some commercial stuff doesn't play well with it.
So for my purposes I had to pass on the Garand even though I really didn't want to it was in the end a matter of limited resources. The 308 is without doubt a fine round with great flexibility, the 30-06 also belongs in that category just as does the 7.62x54R. But the 308 is easy to find if pricey right now and very easy to reload and made in the USA as the commercial ammo works just fine.
So I didn't reject the Garand, I just accepted the 308.
I say own em' all! :) Boston's Gun Bible does a decent review and that book is a good place to start.
But as far as velocity goes...we tested a bunch of our 308's (yes, we own or have owned most of them) here is what we came up with one fine day using Hert mil-surp ammo. As always, YMMV due to various chambers, lot numbers, weather, etc. ad nauseam.
FWIW:
Saiga 308 16" bbl-2653 fps.
CETME 308 16" bbl-2558 fps.
PTR-91 18" bbl-2698 fps.
Gibbs Jungle Carbine 308 20" bbl-2618 fps
FAL (Imbel/STG58) 308 21" bbl-2755-fps.
Ishapore 2A-1 308 25" bbl-2756 fps
M1A Nat. Mat. 308 22" bbl-2793 fps.
Rem.M700V 26" bbl-2845 fps.
you didn't, by chance, measure groups with said rifles?
I'm surprised by the ishy
My 21" Saiga 308 came in and after doing a good cleaning and polishing of things that seemed to need it I took it to the range. Needs breaking in no doubt but it was shooting 2 MOA eight round groups with Silver Bear no failures. The docs from the factory report 41mm groups at 100m on the test fire. Very happy so far. Soon as I get my camera replaced will post a pic or two if paranoia doesn't get the best of me.
Quote from: gunville on July 22, 2009, 08:22:34 PM
you didn't, by chance, measure groups with said rifles?
I'm surprised by the ishy
On the steel targets, we were able to keep 4MOA at our KD range out to 500M. Did not shoot any paper.
Steel targets are so much fun with the 308. There is never any doubt if you hit or not and the sound is very satisfying! We are trying to set up a 500M range on some property near by and that's what we will be putting up. Told you guys I was lazy >:D
Just to add my 2 cents. The best rifle is the one you have and use .Hit someone in the eye with a .22 is better than missing with a 12.7 .So whatever you own at the present, practice with it and it will do. Bigger is better was not said about rifles.
Take this for what it is worth, most militaries have had open topped Rifles since the first bolt rifle (Mauser if i recall right) was introduced. The Garand did quite well in Europe and the Pacific theatres plus Korea and went on to become the M14, so at least 70 plus years? of open topped Rifles doing well.
Do not discount a Rifle because of how it looks, only how reliable it is or isn't and if you watch Gran Torino you will see Clint Eastwood properly loading an M1 <:) AzRon
"$600ish for a Century CETME/G3"
Do NOT get a CETME. You are taking a gamble when
buying a Century Arms product. They are renowned
for shoddy QC.
Buy a $1,000 PTR 91F (spares of EVERYTHING abound), field
strips in 7 seconds, tough as nails and mags are $3 a pop.
Mine is very accurate.
A DSA FAL is also a good choice.
I know it was only mentioned once and dismissed, but do NOT get an AR-15 type rifle in .308 unless you like to babysit. You have to hand feed them pussy cat ammo in order for the chamber to not develop teeth and latch onto the brass. No mil-surp for these babies. My DPMS looks like a panther, but acts like a feral alley cat. FOR SALE!
The hk 91 is awesome but I hate (!!) the sights and the charging handle. :'( Otherwise it's a baseball bat that shoots every damn time you pull the trigger - consistently to one side or the other, depending on the rifle, but good groups. :~
An LRB m14 may cost your kids their education, but at least you'll know their grand-kids will have the best rifle ever made by man (if you can hold on to it :(). www.LRBarms.com "PING!" ;)
Never shot a FAL. Heard good things.
The Garand is great and a LOT of fun, although I saw one blow up last week with the Korean ammo... yikes.
Savage makes a heck of a bolt gun in .308 with a nice trigger for around $400. Not a mbr, but a nice rifle at a nice price.
I want to double up on what TaosGlock said about "Boston's Gun Bible". Worth a read. 800 pages of this very discussion. And he talks up Appleseed. Friend of Fred's. In Boston's own words, "How much is your life worth?"
The money you save on a rifle will only be spent on something else less important.
I disagree with the comment about .308 ARs... I have a DPMS lr-308C, and it has never had any problems with feeding or firing. The only thing I have shot through it is the Russian Brown Bear stuff and NATO surplus .308 (british Radway Green)... both work just fine. The only thing I don't like about it is its weight. The barrel looks like a regular A2 profile, but under the handguards it is MUCH thicker... i wish it was just the regular profile the whole way. Rock River Arms and Armalite's versions probably have the lighter barrel. I might trade out if i find a deal on one of those.
Quote from: henschman on August 03, 2009, 03:04:19 PM
I disagree with the comment about .308 ARs... I have a DPMS lr-308C, and it has never had any problems with feeding or firing.
Consider yourself extremely lucky, and hold onto that one.
Most AR-10's are finicky as can be over ammo.
kDan, I MIGHT be interested in that AR-10 of yours. Yeah, I know it is ammo fussy, but, I can deal with that. Won't be the only .308 of mine that gets filet mignon when my Fed Ord gets cube steak.
That AR-10 is most likely the greatest rifle that never existed. They we so close on that guy and just didnt put the effort into it. That barrel that exploded during the test run may well have been the most expensive barrel in history. I just cant see us being better off with the 223 than the 308 but then thats Uncle for you.
My go to rifle is my springfield M1A love it. It's solid, accurate, and it has class. Yes expensive but worth every penny. I also have a DPMS lr 308c. 1st. thing I did with it was JP adjustable gas block and RRA NM trigger. I love it, accurate, solid and fun to shoot. No class. All of the control's are just like an M/16(AR15). Do'nt get me wrong I love the AR-10, AR-15 platform, I have several, just no class. I do,nt mean to offend just an opinion. Oh yeah; both MADE IN AMERICA.
dragonfly
I have a ton of HK-91/G3/PTR/CETME mags laying around (well, 36 to be exact) since I sold my HK 91, and I noticed that there are now a couple of manufacturers making AR-10 lowers specifically designed for this magazine. Given that standard AR-10 mags are crazy spendy, I'm giving serious consideration to building one around these lowers, since I can feed it from a stock of mags that I already have. Despite the fact that I've carried the M-16/M-4 platform for my entire adult life, I'm not a fan. I much prefer the stupid reliability of piston driven rifles such as the HK, SKS, AK, and so on. So, here's my question: Does anyone know of a piston drive option for the AR-10 platform?
I truly wish I had a M1a, I've never even fired one. That's my ultimate rifle.
the only piston driven .308 AR style rifle I know of is the FN SCAR Heavy. They are really pricey (like over 3 grand). The Robinson XCR-M is supposed to come out soon too.
Surprised no one in this thread has mentioned Smith Enterprises. http://www.smithenterprise.com/ If you want to get a M14 which is going to break the bank, they are the place to go. (They make forged receivers.)
I have a Springfield Armory M1A NM and am quite happy with it. Alas, it is still a much than I am, but I am working on that!
Quote from: Edheler on August 08, 2009, 10:26:15 AM
Surprised no one in this thread has mentioned Smith Enterprises. http://www.smithenterprise.com/ If you want to get a M14 which is going to break the bank, they are the place to go. (They make forged receivers.)
I have a Springfield Armory M1A NM and am quite happy with it. Alas, it is still a much than I am, but I am working on that!
They haven't made any forged receivers in some time, although the site claims they'll have some out hopefully this month. Smith Enterprises is great stuff...BTP loves em...but they did quit making forged receivers for a while. Looks like their back at it again, which is great. Now another place to spend my money.
-David
Edgewood, NM
If I'm not wrong, Smith builds their rifles around LRB forged receivers these days.
You will pay for this quality, but only once.
I saw someone talking about the Century Arms .308. The actual model is a C-91 and I personally have had one for almost two years and love it. You can find them at J&G Sales usually for under $700.00. There are a lot of great advantages to this choice; the mags are SUPER cheap at only $2-$3 dollars each, the rifle is pretty darn accurate and it packs a punch. The only thing that I don't particularly care for is that you need a screwdriver to make sight adjustments. You also (depending where you live) can add a collapsible stock or a Navy pattern HK trigger assembly widely available through the Sportsman's Guide. In my opinion it is a great firearm for a great price.