I've gotten interested in the Grendel. Shooting at distance in a recent course it was very evident how much a .223 drifted in a modest wind compared to the 7.62. Seems that I could keep my weight load pretty low and stick with the very accurate AR platform using the Grendel. Anybody around that has experience with the Grendel? Seems that x39 brass will work after some mods. The Alexander Arms uppers are somewhat reasonable and the wait I am told is only about 16 weeks. Any help appreciated.
Alex
I do not have any experience with a Grendel, but here are my thoughts.
1. Very expensive ammo.
2. If you are considering this as an MBR, you will likely have a really nice time getting ammo once things go south.
3. In my opinion, if the wind is so bad it pushes a .223 around.........(why are you shooting that far in windy weather??)
4. Where do you live? what type of terrrain will you be shooting in? (ask yourself these questions-you don't need to answer me ;D) What is the Maximum distance that you will be reasonably shooting? I know, this is not going to be popular, but, the majority of firefights will be conducted at around 10-100 meters.
If you just want to Appleseed with the rifle I do not see why wind is an important issue.
If it will be an MBR, I do not think that I would worry with a very expensive rifle/cartridge combo.
Just my $0.02 worth..............
Remember, you are not a sniper.................
I have put alot of .308/7.62x51 down range at High Power type shoots and at the first Appleseed I attended when I shot full distance. There definitely is a huge difference between the light grain .223/5.56 and .308. The heavier .223 bullets will hang with a .308 but unless you reload, it gets VERY costly $$. Although you can use 62 grain 5.56 in most ARs and do decent up to 400M-500M, that is about the limit. You are only gaining a couple of inches of drift with the common 62 gr ball round. Even 500M in wind can really give you fits. For me the 6.5 is not worth the extra cost. I can still get relatively cheap .308. If you want to stick to the AR platform and are going to be shooting further than 500M, my recommendation is to either get yourself a AR15 upper with a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 twist for the heavier bullets or go to a .308/7.62x51 chambered AR10. For an Appleseed KD shot which is at 400M, then you can do just fine with 62ish grain .223/5.56 rounds.
Well, ammo availability may not be that bad if indeed 7.62X39 brass does fireform as well as some say. I now reload almost everything I shoot.
No, I'm not a sniper (and God help that I never have to fire on another human being) but it seems that the whole riflemans creed is to make each shot count. It always helps to make shots from beyond the range any opponents can hit from.
Alex
Quote from: Rifleman_NH on July 16, 2009, 08:47:09 PM
3. In my opinion, if the wind is so bad it pushes a .223 around.........(why are you shooting that far in windy weather??)
You do realize that only a 10MPH wind will push a 55 or 62 grain 5.56 over 30 inches at 500M, right??? <:)
A 150 .308 ball round is around 10 less inches with the same wind at 500M.
I understand the wind "thing". I just do not see the need to go buy a rifle chambered in such an odd caliber, when for all practical purposes, you will, most likely even get a chance to shoot at that kind of range.
Why not look into a 7.62X39 AR-15? Cheap(er) ammo, and a decent punch.
If you need to shoot out to 500 yards.......Where do you live??
If I needed that kind of range, I think that some type of .308 would fit the bill better.
With a .308, you will have a common caliber at least.........
I would not want to have to count on reloading for my supply.
Quote from: alex4922 on July 16, 2009, 09:01:49 PM
Well, ammo availability may not be that bad if indeed 7.62X39 brass does fireform as well as some say. I now reload almost everything I shoot.
No, I'm not a sniper (and God help that I never have to fire on another human being) but it seems that the whole riflemans creed is to make each shot count. It always helps to make shots from beyond the range any opponents can hit from.
If you reload, then stick with .223. You can load Nosler Ballistic tips or Sierra Match King, etc bullets for when you really need them and shot the cheap stuff when you are "only" shooting out to 300M or so... The more you shoot with your AR15, the better you will be able to adapt to shooting long distances with it.
Quote from: Rifleman_NH on July 16, 2009, 09:09:53 PM
I understand the wind "thing". I just do not see the need to go buy a rifle chambered in such an odd caliber, when for all practical purposes, you will, most likely even get a chance to shoot at that kind of range.
Why not look into a 7.62X39 AR-15? Cheap(er) ammo, and a decent punch.
If you need to shoot out to 500 yards.......Where do you live??
You do not appreciate the effects a small amount of wind has by your first statement. I am going to take a guess that you are not a hunter. Here in WI, (and most states) there is plenty of opportunity to shoot across 40 acres at critters and watch them crumble into a heap. If you are shooting out to 300M or further, then the 7.62x39 is even worse for ballistics. Here at Appleseed we punch paper at 400M and further. You may wish to stick to 25M or even 200M or less, but many of us do not.... O0
If you wish to learn more about the 6.5, head on over to the 6.5 Grendel forum...
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963
It doesn't pay to debate or discuss with those who are not familiar with it......
I am not from Wisconsin. There are actually very few places that you can shoot much past 75 meters around here!
What my point is, is that there is no reason to have an MBR that is chambered in such an unusual round, and that there are plenty of calibers out there that are common, and are capable of shooting to 500 meters.
The difference between Appleseed and real life, is that at an Appleseed, the targets are not shooting back, and they have no cover or concealement.
In real life, ( and dependent upon terrain ) a "target" would not be visible until they broke cover (most likely within 75 meters).
My issue is not with the cartridge itself, it is with the availability of the cartridge.
With 77 grain MK handloads my Armalite will go into 1 1/2" at 300 yds. Thats off a pack not a bench. The Grendel will supposedly do MOA to 1000 yds.
Guess I'm gonna have to try it.
Alex
Alex
Do ahead and do the 6.5, then I can come to he range with you and try a new caliber!! I also have a few 39 cases that can be reloaded (I owe you for the 303 cases), Let me know if you need any help.
Thanks FH ! We really do need to get to the range.
A
I am getting interested in the Grendel myself. Wolf Gold now makes ammo for it for $14/box in brass cases here: http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ammo-for-rifles/other-rifle-calibers/p/6-5mm-grendel-russian-wolf-gold-sp-123gr-sp-20rd-box-backordered-/cPath/12_47/products_id/1954.
Has anyone heard about the accuracy? Do you loose accuracy with a gas piston system?
If you want a 6.5 Grendel, by all means, get one. I've got a couple 6.8 SPCs so I don't have a niche for a Grendel. I think all the 1000-yard stuff you hear about the Grendel is garbage. It's no 1000 yard cartridge. Probably a pretty good 600 yard cartridge out of a 20" barrel but its not really any better than 77 gr SMKs out of a 5.56.
Fact is, Grendel looks a lot better on paper than it is in real life.
If you want a long range gun out of an AR either go 308 are 260. The 260 really rings most of the potential out of a 6.5mm bullet and will do it through an AR-10, DPMS, or FAL with only a barrel change.
I like my 6.8 SPC carbines but they in no way compete with a 308. They're 400 yard carbines that do a pretty good job on wild pigs and deer out to 400 but shooting beyond that is a crapshoot due to low BC and wind drift.
-David
Edgewood, NM
I've heard good things about the 6.5g. For an MBR I agree that a .308 is the way to go, and I've hit the 1,000 yd. silhouette plenty with my DPMS LR-308 20", but hey, you're trying to stick with your same lower instead of buying a whole new $1500 rifle, right? I say go for the grendel. As for the ammo availability thing, just find a load that works well with it, and load enough ammo that you will be set for a good long while. And if things get really bad and you can't reload 6.5 anymore, just slap your .223 upper back on it and use the enemy's ammo! :) The easy interchangability between a variety of calibers is why the regular old ar-15 platform is so great.
Within its limitations, the 6.5 Grendel is a fine cartridge. It is designed to wring a lot of power and accuracy from the AR15 platform. It makes a fine long-range target cartridge.
However, as a cartidge/gun combination to be taken somewhere other than the range, there's a lot to be desired.
The steep shoulder and straight walls will be another limiting factor on feed reliability. Consider how heavily tapered the 7.62x39 cartridge is, and how that feeds happily with steel cases and dirty guns, (especially with something like the AK47's feed path that points the nose of the bullet closer to the breech).
The bigger caseheads will limit your magazine capacity, since they won't stack as tightly as the .223 caseheads. (The magazine still has to fit the AR's small magwell).
If these limitations do not concern you, and you want to hit things farther out without buying a new gun, it may be a great cartridge for your needs.
For knocking things down at really long range, I think there's a lot to be said for the 6mmXC, which bears a lot of resemblance to a 6.5 Grendel scaled up a bit:
http://www.davidtubb.com/6mmxc.html
A 115gr 6mm bullet with a BC in the .700s, at 3000fps, is going to shoot pretty flat and buck the wind as well as anything out there short of a VLD .50BMG bullet or some of the .338 stuff (with their substantial additional noise and recoil). Remember that wind drift is dictated by the additional time in flight that the bullet is retarded by drag... so the 'slipperier' the bullet is, the less it slows down, and the less it is affected by wind.
6mmXC can be fitted into an AR10-type rifle; the case was shortened from the .243 Win in order to fit a longer bullet into the magazine. It does obvously have the steep shoulder intended for bolt-action target guns tho, and not for autoloaders.
Cases - $330/thousand (fireformed 7.62x39 brass)
Bullets - $240/thousand (Sierra Matchking)
Powder - ~$60/thousand rounds (roughly 4.25 pounds of powder)
Primers - $30/thousand
That's about $660 per thousand rounds. All of it available right now. A bit more expensive than surplus 7.62 NATO. But has less recoil, better long-range trajectory and will fit in an AR platform. Much lighter rifle. I built one for my wife who weighs 100 pounds and she can carry it easily.
Won't be able to find ammo in a crisis situation? Probably not. I also couldn't find 5.56, 7.62N, or 7.62x39 ammo for the past several months until recently and it wasn't even TEOTWAWKI (well....I suppose that's debatable, but...). Heck, I still can't find bulk .22 ammo at Walmart.
Alex4922, by all means go over to the Grendel forums. There's lots of good info there. I've built one Grendel so far. I'm far from being an expert, but I'd be happy to answer questions if you have any. If I don't know, someone on the forum will.
Clod
Thanks Stomper, I was thinking about building one but it looks like I'd only save a few bucks and may end up with trouble. Alexander Arms uppers seem to get very good reviews so I will probably go with them.
I was floored last week when I saw an ad for 5.56 at almost $1000 per thousand. I don't think I'll do business with a company that gouges that much.
Alex
Posts removed due to not being SOMSOM.
I understand you may not like the economy, but it isn't Appleseed related.
Seems sometimes locking isn't enough. Maybe removing a few posts will work.
I'm getting re-interested in this caliber myself.
I just attended a RBC here in CO where I primarily shot my 5.56 16" M4. Once I was shooting well period, I did really well out to 400 yards. 500 yards seemed to be a much bigger stretch than the previous 400 yards combined, although I got a couple hits out to that distance too.
A couple other shooters let me try their M1A's. They kicked my butt. Every shot nearly ruined my position, NPOA wise. I'm 5'5" and weigh about a buck 30. I'm wondering if 308 is really for me. The Guy seemed to think practice and a stock fitted for me would cure the ills, but I'm wondering if something like the Grendel wouldn't be a better option.
Smaller rifle, less weight, less recoil.
I had an Alexander Arms 6.5G upper on a DPMS lower with Jewell trigger and Magpul stock. It was an entry upper, 20" barrell, free float hand guard. Thing was a tack driver with handloads. Never shot factory ammo. It REALLY liked the 107 SMK's with 29g BLC-2, if I remember about 2700fps. ( But I would have to check my data book)
Range is good to 600yds, took plenty of PD's at long range. The 6.5 bc is SO very nice and beats the ,223 all to heck. Recoil was not a factor, in fact my wife (all 110lbs) did not have a problem with it at all.
For whitetail deer here in Mn. I used 120 Sierra Pro-Hunters, dropped a couple Does just fine. Crumpled you might say. Forget the load, but again BLC-2 for powder.
Sold it to fund a Savage 10FCP HS in .308, liked the 6.5G so much I got a custom barrel for the Savage in it. Still use it for Long range shooting matches. The .308 is still unfired.
By all means visit the 6.5G site and research the thing. As long as you are reloading for it there is no problem. Re-sizing the 7.62x39 cases is a plus, but they are Lg. rifle primer cases. The 6.5G case is designed for the small rifle primer, one of the design characteristics to emulate the PPC case. Also the flash hole is smaller than normal so be aware that you may break a decapping pin trying to punch out a primer. Make sure the die mfgr. has allowed for the smaller flash hole. OR take the proper size drill bit and make the hole a little larger. Case life for me has been at least 10 reloads with no signs of problems...but I load for accuracy not for speed, which means I am running less than max. Target shooting is all about small groups and speed may not be your friend. Oh...for each 1" of barrel length over 20" you gain only about 30fps. I saw no reason to go the 24" route.
Quote from: Rifleman_NH on July 16, 2009, 08:47:09 PM
3. In my opinion, if the wind is so bad it pushes a .223 around.........(why are you shooting that far in windy weather??)
You obviously aren't from MT. If you waited for the wind to stop blowing you'd never get to shoot. When it's really windy and you're hunting you just work your way around so you are shooting directly with/into the wind to minimize it's effect.
Haven't had a day with less than 10mph wind in the past month, ususally 15-18mph.
fepowered: I almost miss WI, land measured in acres.(e.g. shooting across 40 acres) Out here it's usually sections or townships.(e.g. up in section 29) Not that I'd ever move back to WI.......
mtmisfit