Hi,
I've only been to one day (saturday) of an appleseed because I have a difficult time getting weekends off from work. In the mean time I try to pactice on my own, but at the range I go to I can only shoot standing or bench rest. I used my M1A scout with USGI nylon sling.
Anyway, I've been workng my standing position, reviewing the guide to becoming a rifleman each time. I used the 200 yard targets because that's all I have left, and fired each 10 shot group as if it were the 1st part of the AQT at rifleman's cadence. I made sure my NPOA was lined up before taking the first shot. Next I align the sights and focus on the front sight, take a breath, exhale, then concenctrate on a smooth trigger squeeze with no jerking/flinching. After the shot I continue keep the trigger depressed, then repeate the process. The fliers seem to be predominately low, and usually happen anywhere between the 4th and 10th shots.
The order in which I shot these, if it matters, was top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right. Also I screwed up and did 9 shots on the top left and 11 on the top right.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/badshot2.jpg)
This group was shot a 100 yards, in 10 round strings, so you can see how the problems stay about the same at actual distance. 18/20 shots on paper, maybe 19/20 because I'm unsure if the one on the top right is an actual hit or a ricochet off the backstop.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/badshot1.jpg)
Any advice is appreciated.
My experience is that if the shot is not a surprise and there is recoil involved, it can lead to a flinch in anticipation of recoil as you press the trigger. In offhand (standing) the flinch is often in a downward direction (stomach muscles tensing pulling your upper body down combined with arms pushing the rifle down against the expected surge). Make sure each shot is a surprise.
Also, how big is your 'wobble zone' of the front sight relative to the target? Does the front sight swing that low as part of its normal motion when in a relaxed position, before you start the trigger press? If not it is probably a flinch. If so, your position needs work. There is such a thing as Natural Point of Aim (NPOA) in standing, though its use is a little more subtle than in sitting or prone (because you can't fully relax in standing without falling over!).
While you still have to hold the rifle with arm muscles in standing, you still don't want to AIM it with muscle. NPOA windage (side to side) can be controlled by your rear foot moving right or left to rotate your relaxed body to point the rifle at the target. NPOA elevation of the rifle can be controlled by placing your rear foot closer to your front foot (moving it towards the target) which lowers your muzzle, or by moving your rear foot away from the target, which raises the muzzle. Do some experimenting in dry fire to see how this works. Remember that the rifle will always want to point to its NPOA because your whole body is combining to point it there, and if you try to push the rifle off its NPOA with your hands, it will fight you (actually your hands will be fighting all the rest of you).
Also try to bring your forward support hand enough rearwards towards the magazine so that your support forearm is as vertical as possible. This helps eliminate much of the support arm bicep muscle tension and lets your forearm bones take over the work. I hope this helps.
Thank you for the response.
I think you may be onto something with the flinch, I guess I need to try some ball and dummy, although I have to admit my groups look about the same with my .22lr rifle where the recoil is much reduced. I think I will load a few mags and do ball and dummy russian roulette style next time. I actually meant to use the .22 today but forgot to bring a magazine for it :-[
I would say my wobble zone is about the height of the black part of the 200 yard targets. Obviously something is happening from the time I start to pull the trigger to the time the bullet leaves the muzzle for the fliers go where they are (probably flinch).
Thanks for the tip about controlling NPOA elevation by moving the front foot forward or backward, I did not know that. I find my NPOA by taking position, aligning the sights, then closing my eyes, taking a breath, then noting where the sights are. The muzzle usually is low after I open my eyes but I did not think I could adjust for that with my feet. Maybe that knowledge will help. I will also pay more attention to left hand placement.
Quote from: Colorado Pete on July 10, 2009, 04:11:57 AM
My experience is that if the shot is not a surprise and there is recoil involved, it can lead to a flinch in anticipation of recoil as you press the trigger. In offhand (standing) the flinch is often in a downward direction (stomach muscles tensing pulling your upper body down combined with arms pushing the rifle down against the expected surge). Make sure each shot is a surprise.
Also, how big is your 'wobble zone' of the front sight relative to the target? Does the front sight swing that low as part of its normal motion when in a relaxed position, before you start the trigger press? If not it is probably a flinch. If so, your position needs work. There is such a thing as Natural Point of Aim (NPOA) in standing, though its use is a little more subtle than in sitting or prone (because you can't fully relax in standing without falling over!).
While you still have to hold the rifle with arm muscles in standing, you still don't want to AIM it with muscle. NPOA windage (side to side) can be controlled by your rear foot moving right or left to rotate your relaxed body to point the rifle at the target. NPOA elevation of the rifle can be controlled by placing your rear foot closer to your front foot (moving it towards the target) which lowers your muzzle, or by moving your rear foot away from the target, which raises the muzzle. Do some experimenting in dry fire to see how this works. Remember that the rifle will always want to point to its NPOA because your whole body is combining to point it there, and if you try to push the rifle off its NPOA with your hands, it will fight you (actually your hands will be fighting all the rest of you).
Also try to bring your forward support hand enough rearwards towards the magazine so that your support forearm is as vertical as possible. This helps eliminate much of the support arm bicep muscle tension and lets your forearm bones take over the work. I hope this helps.
The low shots are most likely "bucking" - pushing the shoulder forward in anticipation of recoil. I have 'em all the time - and shake my head each time I 'fall' for the notion that bucking must be good, so I must do it! :-[ :'( :)
As for the rest, Colorado Pete has it right on the money.
With the possible exception of pulling the forward arm back - that would fall under a YMMV provision.
When shooting in the wind, standing, for example, you always should extend the support arm and hand out as far as you can for better muzzle control, and LOCK every muscle in your body, to resist the wind blowing your muzzle around...
Something I use to cure flincing bucking etc,,, Dry Fire the subconcious mind does not know the defrance.
Wade
+1 with Wade on the dry firing. It will make a HUGE difference if you do it by the numbers and take it seriously. Another thing that could help is to dry fire at a blank sheet of paper. It gets the sight picture out of the 'picture' and lets you watch your front sight. You'll see all of your sight movement without having a target to sight in on. It may sound crazy, but it is used during training pistol shooters in international competition. I hope this helps.
Are you shooting at an indoor range?; I sure hope it's not the kind with a flat black backstop. Using iron sights, I have a tough time seeing the rear sight which disappears against the backstop of my local indoor range.
If that is the case for you, you can try framing your targets against a large white paper.
Secondly, your upper body musculature is of necessity very much engaged in the standing position.
The longer you maintain the position, the more muscle fatique, both within a shot string and throughout the course of a day. The key is to NOT attempt all ten shots consecutively without rest intervals.
Start out a course of fire in the 'low ready' position, that is with sling engaged, the buttstock planted in your shoulder, and the rifle pointed roughly 30° downward, such that your support forearm bone plants against your body, sling and trigger hand, all performing minimal work to hold the rifle. Break your shot strings into sets of three, each set linked by a rest with two breaths in low ready. Maintain cheek weld within shot groups.
Resist the temptation to level until you have 'the perfect shot'; this only fatigues your arm muscles, lengthens your time in position. Level the rifle, take the shot within five seconds of leveling. If you haven't started shootingwithin five seconds, abandon the effort, rest in low ready, and attempt again in two breaths. Experiment with forcing your respiration to pace Rifleman's cadence within each shot string. Breathe normally resting between strings of three.
Trust yourself, your dry firing, and allow yourself to execute the shot.
Break the job into intervals allowing for minimal muscle fatigue, maximum muscle rest and reoxygenation, and execute the six steps with timely confidence.
Hearing 'FIRE!', pivot the rifle at the buttstock to level and engage the target. Your support arm may touch your body or not as you prefer while shooting.
Do execute ball and dummy drills to cure flinch-buck-jerk, dry fire and break up the course of fire with rest intervals.
I'd say keep your eye on the front sight....looks like you are changing focus from the front sight to the target during the shot. That will cause your groups to open up like that.
The vertical stringing could be either breathing or fatigue as well... I'd need to watch you shoot.
Thanks for the new responses.
I tried some dryfiring today with snap caps and was surprised that the front sight really didn't move at all during my trigger pull. I did notice that I would blink when the hammer fell, so maybe that's indicative of a flinch? Granted it's just not the same if you know the recoil isn't coming.
I have been taking the muzzle to the low ready every 4-5 shots and waiting 5 minutes or so between strings, perhaps I'll try resting every 3rd shot.
It is an indoor range and light is at a bit of a premium, but the backstops are brown.
It's a heavier rifle, you may bennefit from taking the rests every third shot instead perhaps even more frequently.
Two minutes is a LONG time for ten shots.
Get someone to do ball and dummy with you.
Update:
Switched to the Marlin 795 and gave it another go.
I used unreliable ammo so I got an automatic random ball and dumy about once every 10 rounds. I didn't notice any flinching.
This time I took not of my back legs affect on NPOA elevation, and took a 2 breath rest after every 2 shots. I think I fared a little bit better, but definitely need to keep working.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/marlintarget2.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/marlintarget.jpg)
You can not stand still, the more you try the worse the wobble. So here is a secret. Apply pressure to the trigger when the sights are comming on target. When your sights are on target very soon they will be off target. So if the hammer did not fall on your first approach keep the tension on the trigger untill sights are comming on target again, then apply more pressure. continue untill the rifle fires as you are comming on target.
Your best shots will happen within about 15 seconds of shouldering the rifle and gaining sight alingment and sight picture. Lower the rifle and breath instead of rushing an desprate shot
Then follow through. Do not lower the rifle or lift you head untill the smoke clears.
Seeing that those are stage 2 targets, and are half the size of stage 1 targets, I don't think that was all that bad. Granted, they aren't small, much bigger than 4 MOA, but they aren't that bad, considering you really need to shoot 20 MOA at 100 yards to consistently hit the stage 1 target.
Try shooting at a stage 1 target, and check the score.
If it's 40 or up, you're good, that's Rifleman territory. Then start working on stage 4 (400 yards). That's where most people choke.
Remember, all you have to do is keep them all in the black, on the proper size targets.
(Yes, I know, if you shoot all 4's, you'll be 10 points short of 210, but, I'll wager you pick up 10 5's in 40 shots.)
On the stage by stage (each on a different sheet) targets, the required score is 200 anyways.
Thanks! Yeah, actually the entire stage 2 target is roughly the same size of the 5 ring on the stage 1 target. Out of the 9 targets I shot today there might've been one or two stage 1 48+'s, but I think the rest would've been 40 or better.
Thanks for the advice clodhopper, I'll try and time my shots for when the sights look best and get off my pairs within 15 seconds of shouldering.
Quote from: Nickle on July 14, 2009, 11:21:58 PM
Seeing that those are stage 2 targets, and are half the size of stage 1 targets, I don't think that was all that bad. Granted, they aren't small, much bigger than 4 MOA, but they aren't that bad, considering you really need to shoot 20 MOA at 100 yards to consistently hit the stage 1 target.
Try shooting at a stage 1 target, and check the score.
If it's 40 or up, you're good, that's Rifleman territory. Then start working on stage 4 (400 yards). That's where most people choke.
Remember, all you have to do is keep them all in the black, on the proper size targets.
(Yes, I know, if you shoot all 4's, you'll be 10 points short of 210, but, I'll wager you pick up 10 5's in 40 shots.)
On the stage by stage (each on a different sheet) targets, the required score is 200 anyways.
There, that was easy.
The final analysis of what you were doing wrong?
Using the wrong target (which gave you a false sense of poor shooting).
Using a smaller target sometimes makes people "pick off" their shots which can cause a twitch that shouldn't be there. Actually I think your groups look pretty good except that you are trying to shoot all ten shots at once and that is causing fatigue which is causing you to fall out the bottom on your later shots. There were some good suggestions above but some guesses as well.
I would suggest you find a target, it can be a round bull, that is about the size of the stage one AQT target and shoot that but don't shoot more than two or three shots at a time and then rest a few seconds. Don't break your position other than to lower your rifle a little. Take a couple breaths, raise the rifle and relax. You can develop a position that uses bone rather than muscle to support the rifle.
When I shoot standing I find my NPOA and exhale and bring the front sight above the black. I then settle down and relax which brings me to the top of the black and let out just a small puff of air . This will cause the front sight to settle into the black while I'm squeezing the trigger. It will settle straight down and stop in the black as the shot fires. I teach this technique at Appleseeds and have a lot of shooters who will shoot a perfect score on the standing stage.
You can practice standing and the other positions at home by getting into and out of prone, sitting and standing and working with the sling. Dry fire in these positions and you will find that it is much easier when you get to the range. I always say "don't waste time at the range learning things you could have learned at home."
Shoot well.
VAshooter
Just thought I'd share my somewhat better results from today.....shot a 46 on the full sized target which is getting about where I want to be.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/better.jpg)
Shot at all 3 targets from standing position at 25 meters. I'd shoot two at cadence, lower the rifle, take two breaths, then repeat until mag was empty.
Now I need to work on my stage 4. I think the key for me is getting the point of aim right on the stage 3&4, as I can usually get 1 MOA groups, they're just not always in the proper location.
QuoteNow I need to work on my stage 4. I think the key for me is getting the point of aim right on the stage 3&4, as I can usually get 1 MOA groups, they're just not always in the proper location.
Are they where you called them at?
Say, like your point of aim is at 5 o'clock but you shot the string there, anyway?
Or do they wonder arround?
Quote from: AFTERMATH on July 31, 2009, 11:05:15 PM
QuoteNow I need to work on my stage 4. I think the key for me is getting the point of aim right on the stage 3&4, as I can usually get 1 MOA groups, they're just not always in the proper location.
Are they where you called them at?
Say, like your point of aim is at 5 o'clock but you shot the string there, anyway?
Or do they wonder arround?
Well, that's a good question. This is embarassing but here is the last AQT I shot on my own. I was low with almost all the shots on stage 4. Stages 2 and 3 were actually good, but I buckled on stage 1 for some reason. Granted this was the first time since my june appleseed that I had a chance to shoot prone, so I was probably a bit rusty.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/aqt.jpg)
And here's another
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/badaqt.jpg)
What did you do on that Stage 3 center target, that you didn't on the rest of prone?
Quote from: AFTERMATH on August 01, 2009, 12:02:09 AM
What did you do on that Stage 3 center target, that you didn't on the rest of prone?
Get lucky? Honestly I don't know! I felt pretty good about the stage 4 targets on that one too but was pretty disappointed when I walked downrange.
Were you focussing on the front sight?
Quote from: AFTERMATH on August 01, 2009, 12:19:23 AM
Were you focussing on the front sight?
Yeah, Honestly on the stage 4's sometimes I have a hard time seeing the target and they can be hard to distinguish, depending on the light. My vision is supposedly 20/20 with my glasses on though.
If you're focussing on that front sight. The target will be blurry.
And the worse your eyes the worse the blur. Your glasses, also may not be at the right focus point for the front sight.
Center that sight in the center of the blur, and you'll be close enough.
Don't fret the shot. And your groups will shrink.
Thanks a ton for the help aftermath, I'm gonna head back out to my parents' land and try a few more AQT's next week. I was making improvements last week, then I lost the front sight post on my 795 (came loose somehow during shoting). I got a new one in the mail and will try again.
No problem...
Lock-tite O0