I'm headed to Throop, NY next week for an IBC and Appleseed. I was planning on taking my 10/22 as my primary rifle and my FAL as my backup. After reading the honorous New York firearm laws it looks like the FAL is out of the question. This has lead me to considering a different rifle that I might be more "state law friendly". I was also thinking of a caliber with a little more zip than the 22LR and a little less punch than the 7.62 X 51, or .308 Winchester. That is what's drawing me to the .223, plus availability of ammo.
I saw a post the other day where someone commented that the AR wasn't designed to go 400 yards, and that the iron sights were too close together for any real downrange work. I'm sure more than one AR owner will contest that, so have at it.
What is a good 223 rifle that will reach out to 400 - 500 yards? Am I too fixated on 223?
Recommendations please...
Jim
Quote: "the AR wasn't designed to go 400 yards, and that the iron sights were too close together for any real downrange work"
Thousands of Riflemen would beg to differ. Of course your question will lead to hundreds of comments about which rifle/ barrel length, sights, trigger, mags, flashlight, iPod,bipod, tripod, rail system, sling, flash suppressor, muzzle brake, pistol grip, bullet weight, shooting glasses, hat, socks, and drawers are best, and we've all got our opinions, :D but I think it's the rifle in your hand at the moment.
Don't sweat the small stuff, just bring what you got, learn, and enjoy! JB
I have to admit to having absolutely no use or time for the AR but it will go distance just fine.
You get what you feel right with and let the naysayers $--^ and fall back in it.
If any are really obstinate about it, I'd be happy to let my niece law teach them **) She generally charges about $5 a shot when giving lessons ;D
My personal 223 favorite is the AR18/180 but I'm an old fuddy duddy.
Whatever .223 you bring be sure it "feeds" good from the magazine.
Some folks will say mini14's are bad. I've seen folks shoot rifleman scores with them but I've seen more folks have feed problems from the cheap and easy to get (compared to Ruger mags.) after market magazine they bring to the Appleseed.
I've seen a couple folks shoot rifleman scores with a bolt action, heavy barreled, scoped varmint rifle in .223. If you're gonna bring one of those you better get your bolt workin' and single loading (one round at a time into the magazine, or one round at a time into the chamber - your choice) practice in before you go to the Appleseed.
I've seen a lot more rifleman scores fired with AR's that with any other type of .223, but then there are more AR's at Appleseeds than any other type of .223. Here in the east dust isn't usually an issue (if that's an excuse) so I haven't seen too many issues with ARs if they are clean and lubed. Sights are good, triggers are pretty lousy (unless you get lucky or install an aftermarket match type trigger), they don't seem to have too many magazine issues and it's usually easy to put a GI web sling on one.
I have one or more of all three of the above and if I was serious about going to an Appleseed to shoot I'd bring an AR.
I have a great use for my AR. On a line where I can easily find my empties I shoot my M1 Garand. If I'm at a range where finding the empties would be difficult to impossible I shoot the 5.45X39 AR and let the steel cases lay where they fall. @)
Quote...about $5 a shot...
Isn't that about the price 7.62 NATO is going for these days... **) **) &):-X
If you're shooting paper; .223 will do just fine, even excell.
And chances are you won't be shooting anything other than paper at an Appleseed... I hope.
QuoteDon't sweat the small stuff, just bring what you got, learn, and enjoy! JB
Oh I would but New York won't let me. They specifically call out the FN/FAL as an "assault weapon" and therefore illegal anywhere in the state. Now I'm faced with picking up another rifle. I was thinking maybe a Mini 14 with 5 shot magazines. In its standard form it will be permissable under the law.
I figure if I put a scope on it the distance between the front and rear sights becomes a non-issue.
I could simply go out and buy another 10/22 as a backup but I was hoping to build my next one. There isn't enough time to build a custom 10/22 between now and next Wednesday, when I'm supposed to report to the IBC. Therefore I thought I might pickup a .223 rifle for use at the IBC. New York says I have to stay away from anything that falls under their "assault rifle" designation. A new AR, or AR look-a-like, will put me squarely in the assault category.
Distance between the front and rear isn't a real issue either. Sure a yard is nice but you can shoot Rifleman with an AK if you know how to use it.
Master whatever you have and you'll get more from it than you ever imagined.
This is NOT an equipment game.
Sam
Quote from: jimbtv on July 04, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
I was thinking maybe a Mini 14 with 5 shot magazines. In its standard form it will be permissable under the law.
I figure if I put a scope on it...
I'm with Sam; I don't much care for ARs. Anyhoo, I've got a mini 14 with a Turkey scope on it that I've shot rifleman scores with. Nothing special...it's off the rack. I haven't done a thing to it. If that's what you've got don't be afraid to use it. Oh, and you can get ten round mags for 'em if you want.
Are the NY laws similar to the CA laws, wherein the FN FAL is an assault weapon, but a DSA built FAL or receiver on a kit is perfectly legal.
I have a FAL built on a DSA receiver and it is a great shooter, and completely legal in CA of all places!
You would have to ask teh attorney general of California about that.
I quit keeping up with them a couple years ago when I put them under the interdiction.
Banned them, starting with California law enforcement agencies but that is more properly a topic for another forum.
Happy Independence Day
Quote from: RobT2K on July 05, 2009, 12:51:15 AM
Are the NY laws similar to the CA laws, wherein the FN FAL is an assault weapon, but a DSA built FAL or receiver on a kit is perfectly legal.
I have a FAL built on a DSA receiver and it is a great shooter, and completely legal in CA of all places!
NY Penal law Article 265.22(d) - banned "assault weapons"
Quote
"any of the weapons, or functioning frames or recievers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as:
(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similart to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
Interesting stuff the laws of NY - you would think reading the above that you couldn't buy a WASR, an AR, or an FAL, yet you can... I can't explain how they interpret it,
Quote
I saw a post the other day where someone commented that the AR wasn't designed to go 400 yards, and that the iron sights were too close together for any real downrange work. I'm sure more than one AR owner will contest that, so have at it.
Are you sure you didn't read that about an AK instead of an AR?
The sight radius complaint is pretty typically made about the AK. (AR carbines may be a bit short on sight radius, but not the rifles.)
Quote from: jimbtv on July 04, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
QuoteDon't sweat the small stuff, just bring what you got, learn, and enjoy! JB
Oh I would but New York won't let me. They specifically call out the FN/FAL as an "assault weapon" and therefore illegal anywhere in the state. Now I'm faced with picking up another rifle. I was thinking maybe a Mini 14 with 5 shot magazines. In its standard form it will be permissable under the law.
I figure if I put a scope on it the distance between the front and rear sights becomes a non-issue.
I could simply go out and buy another 10/22 as a backup but I was hoping to build my next one. There isn't enough time to build a custom 10/22 between now and next Wednesday, when I'm supposed to report to the IBC. Therefore I thought I might pickup a .223 rifle for use at the IBC. New York says I have to stay away from anything that falls under their "assault rifle" designation. A new AR, or AR look-a-like, will put me squarely in the assault category.
You can have 10 round mags for the Mini-14.
You are welcome to use your pick of my 10/22's, or anything else I have. PM if interested. I may not be up there until Friday. Most likely the IBC will not have much actual shooting anyhow(in my understanding) before then.
Quote from: gunville on July 05, 2009, 01:24:21 AM
Quote from: RobT2K on July 05, 2009, 12:51:15 AM
Are the NY laws similar to the CA laws, wherein the FN FAL is an assault weapon, but a DSA built FAL or receiver on a kit is perfectly legal.
I have a FAL built on a DSA receiver and it is a great shooter, and completely legal in CA of all places!
NY Penal law Article 265.22(d) - banned "assault weapons"
Quote
"any of the weapons, or functioning frames or recievers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as:
(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similart to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
Interesting stuff the laws of NY - you would think reading the above that you couldn't buy a WASR, an AR, or an FAL, yet you can... I can't explain how they interpret it,
"Copies or duplicates" also means the brand itself. They were trying to avoid precisely what Intratec did with the Tec-9; it was banned in DC by name, so Intratec made a new rollmark that said "Tec-DC9" and continued selling them. That wouldn't be legal in NY... but another brand name is fine. So, if you have a FAL on a non-FN receiver, have at it!
As to the original question, if you have the funding for a new AR, then by all means, go for it. Just keep in mind the further points of the NY AWB: no post-ban mags in excess of 10 rounds (and I prefer 10s for Appleseed anyways); and no more than one of the following: flash hiders or threaded barrel (pinned brakes are OK, although your lane neighbors might disagree), collapsible stocks (magpul PRS is ok, CAR stocks aren't), bayonet lugs (damn driveby bayonettings), grenade launchers (nevermind the ammo is a DD by itself and even harder to find), pistol grip. In other words: you can have a pistol grip but none of the other features of a "normal" AR.
I think you'll find an AR works just fine, and there are LOTS of riflemen out there who have earned their patch shooting one. It is without question a 500yd rifle in the right hands, although the .223 is losing some zip at that kind of distance - but that doesn't seem to bother the folks at Perry who shoot them out that far (and further) with a heavier bullet.
http://nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm
Thanks to everyone for staying with me on this one.
Zercool, are you saying that a FAL built around a DSA receiver would be o.k. to bring to Throop? I imagine I'd fail on the pistol grip and flash arrestor and I'm not prepared to change stocks and barrels at this point.
Gunville, it might have been AK instead of AR. I'd have to search through the posts to find out. I'll do that later today.
B9, thanks for the offer but I'm trying to cover my own butt on this one. This is why I'm trying to iron this out before I load up the car on Tuesday. No, I'm not flush in cash but I am willing to invest in something if I need to do so.
It's tough operating in a state like Vermont where just about anything goes, then trying to wedge the out-of-stater that I would be into the draconian New York state firearm laws. Transporting a rife through the state is not a problem - it's stopping to pop off a few rounds that make things difficult.
I made fun of Vermont in another post, but I take it all back.
Unless it's pre-ban, your FAL Pistol grip + flash arrestor manufactured is a felony. If it's pre-ban, your good.
I'm not sure if the armory requirements for the IBC include a centerfire, but I'm planning on bringing my 10/22 and AR15.
It's kind of tough finding a semi auto that won't run afoul of their retarded laws. An SKS might fit the bill, but you might have to be careful about the particular model. For example, I'm not sure if the yugoslavian ones with the bayonet and grenade launcher would be a problem. Also, loading with stripper clips can be a little problematic.
Another option would be an M1 Garand. The downside to that is the ammo. It might be more powerful than what you are looking for, and also a little expensive. An M1A without the flash hider might work too, but it is even more expensive.
I'd also consider an M1 Carbine if you are able to find ammo for it.
Your best bet might be the Kel Tec SU-16, http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.htm They are kind of ugly, but most reviews I've read said they are decent and get the job done.
Quote from: ksuguy on July 05, 2009, 05:48:29 PM
It's kind of tough finding a semi auto that won't run afoul of their retarded laws. An SKS might fit the bill, but you might have to be careful about the particular model. For example, I'm not sure if the yugoslavian ones with the bayonet and grenade launcher would be a problem. Also, loading with stripper clips can be a little problematic.
Another option would be an M1 Garand. The downside to that is the ammo. It might be more powerful than what you are looking for, and also a little expensive. An M1A without the flash hider might work too, but it is even more expensive.
I'd also consider an M1 Carbine if you are able to find ammo for it.
Your best bet might be the Kel Tec SU-16, http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.htm They are kind of ugly, but most reviews I've read said they are decent and get the job done.
An SKS from strippers is fine regardless of features - in order to fall under the AWB rules, a rifle must accept detachable magazines... and most SKSes are pre-ban anyways.
We know our laws are twisted and difficult - but please, it's our state, and most of us are still pretty proud to live here. We're working on change from the inside, instead of just complaining about it.
Back to the topic at hand - I have a 20" AR that you'd be welcome to borrow as well. I won't be at the shoot but could certainly connect with B9 ahead of time and send it along. Nothing super-fancy, DPMS stainless HBAR with A2 sights - if you want to feed it (and it only eats brass), let me know.
Thanks to all. Junior Birdman has been PM'ing me, noting that IBC's usually don't require much firepower. I directed him to the page that says to bring 2 rifles and 1,500 rounds but he feels it is directed at RBC's, not IBC's.
I'll do some discovery work and find out for sure. If I don't need to spend the bucks right now I won't. More time usually means smarter decisions, at least for me. O0
Quote from: jimbtv on July 04, 2009, 07:50:15 PM
I saw a post the other day where someone commented that the AR wasn't designed to go 400 yards, and that the iron sights were too close together for any real downrange work. I'm sure more than one AR owner will contest that, so have at it.
What is a good 223 rifle that will reach out to 400 - 500 yards? Am I too fixated on 223?
Recommendations please...
They couldn't have been talking about ARs. The Marine Corps still qualifies at 500yds. I never had much problem qualifying Expert with my M16A2. I have shot High Power at 600 yds with my AR. There are matches at 1000yds. If you are looking at an AR for long distance and iron sights, stick with 20" barrel rifles. If you have a choice, go with a 1 in 8" or 1 in 7" twist for the heavier bullets. A 1 in 9" will get the job done if that is all you can find or afford. It is the most common and it gets the job done. I have a 1 in 9" twist barrel on mine.
Come on big TWO!!!! O0
QuoteZercool, are you saying that a FAL built around a DSA receiver would be o.k. to bring to Throop?
Apologies, I missed this the last time around.
That is precisely what I'm saying.
And truth be told, in extended conversations with officers of various departments, the general consensus is this:
If you're not being stupid to begin with, the most we're going to do is ask to hold it and maybe try it. ;D They *generally* feel that the AWB is a tool for prosecutors; it allows additional bargaining chips to be placed on the table when looking at a more serious crime. ("Well, if he'll plead to the weapons charge we can reduce this other one to...")
Disclaimer: I live in cow country NY, and the cops I've spoken to are, for the most part, fellow shooters and gun enthusiasts. Not all officers are. Also, I'm not a lawyer, and none of this should be considered legal advice. Downstate officers and metropolitan officers may have very different opinions. ::)
Edit to add:
Read Nickle's advice below, and follow it. I had a very long Independence Day and today has been a bit long to. I wrote above while taking a break from mowing our lawn, which has been too wet to mow for nearly three weeks. I missed the flash suppressor bit - that plus the pistol grip is a no-go here. Sorry!
Jim, leave your FAL to home. You say it has the pistol grip and the flash suppressor, that makes it not legal in NY.
If you want a 7.62 NATO rifle to take, you borrow my M14 clone, it is NY legal (pre-ban).
If you prefer a .30-06 rifle, I've got a few, including an M1, Springfields and a 1917 Enfield.
Nickle,
Got your PM on Throop. We'll deal with the rifle issue when everything else gets settled.
Jim
Zercool is correct, but Nickle is even more correct. The likelyhood of a hassle is slim, but it's still a felony, and then they actually get to deny your 2A rights.
I don't share Zercool's optimism on changing these neo-nazi NY gun laws so long as NYC is part of this state.
if you want a .223 that's not considered an assault weapon, consider the Saiga .223. They come with a non-pistol grip stock, no threaded muzzle or muzzle attachments, and a 10 round mag, but you can buy high-cap mags for it that you can use when in your home state. Plus, its based on the AK so it takes AK parts and has AK reliability... and now that Tech Sights has sights for the AK, you can actually put some decent irons on it. They all come with a nice side rail scope mount too, so you can stick some glass on there if you want. the cheapest place to get them is www.armsofamerica.com . They have them for $399.99. the 16 inch is on backorder, but the ones with the 20 inch barrel are in stock.
A down-side of the Saiga is that you still have the AK sights and sight radius. The 20" may help.
Pretty much the first thing someone does with a Saiga is to convert it to a pistol grip, moving the trigger group back (where it belongs.) Still, that's only 1 evil feature, so your good everyplace except maybe CA.
Another plus for the .223 Saiga is that MSA makes a AR mag adapter (about $180 I think) that allows you to use AR mags in the Saiga.
I bought the Mini-14, ranch version with the synthetic stock.
(http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7935.0;attach=10048;image)
I wanted a rifle I could take into other states, since I'm now working my way into the instructor's corps and travel will become more widespread. Living in Vermont I have New York on one border, Massachusetts on another, New Hampshire to the east and Canada to the north. New York and Mass have honorous firearm laws and they don't welcome transients with assault rifles, as they define assault rifles. Flash arrestors, pistol grips, hi-cap mags and folding stocks are the trappings of the assault rifle so I wanted to steer clear of those items. In a .223 the options become fairly limited if you are looking for a plain-jane version.
While I would have liked the longer barrel of their target model, that design won't accommodate iron sights. They are strictly optics platforms and I didn't want to commit to that method only. That pushed me into the 18.5" barrel with "ghost sights", and I still have the option for optics if I choose them down the road.
Ruger has come a long way with the Mini 14. The action is relatively smooth and there are many ways to make it smoother. The barrel is more robust than the earlier versions and the metalwork is matte stainless. Folks are claiming 1 -2 MOA at 100 yards which is a far cry better than the earlier versions. I have yet to get out there and see for myself because it has been raining non-stop since I bought it.
So now I have the 10/22 for the fun stuff, and as a loaner, the FN/FAL in 7.62 X 51 for punching through concrete, and the Mini 14 as an intermediary rifle.
That'll work too!
Whoever said that saigas aren't good because of sights, i reiterate that tech sights has now come out with a product for the AK that also works on saigas. Even with the $120 the sights cost, it still gets you into a high-cap, semi-auto .223 cheaper than anything else in that category, and its also more reliable than any of the other options.
I would recommend that anyone interested in a mass/ny legal .223 look into getting a thumbhole stock on an AR. That way you can still have either a flash hider, or use your "pre-ban" hi-cap mags (if you can get them)
I am not impressed with the Mini-14. They have some accuracy issues as well as the fact that any repairs must be done by Ruger.
Quote from: Daniel on July 08, 2009, 07:48:22 PM
I am not impressed with the Mini-14. They have some accuracy issues as well as the fact that any repairs must be done by Ruger.
Oh, that's cold... :( Toss icewater on an old man's dream.
What's colder is that you imply I didn't do my research and to THAT I take offense, good sir!
First, by what standard are we judging the Mini 14 to have accuracy issues? Second, "...
ANY repairs..." should be read "...
SOME repairs...".
The 580 series have a newer, heavier barrel and shoot a 1 to 2 MOA. That's not too shabby, but then I suppose there are other .223's that can pull tighter groups. Even so, I wouldn't characterize a rifle that can shoot those specs as having "accuracy issues".
As to the repairs, there are CERTAIN repairs that can only be done by the factory, meaning they won't sell selected parts. These involve stock barrels, gas systems and some parts within the trigger group. So if you go out and booger-up the action with a cheap video and a Dremel drill, you MAY have to send it back to Ruger, depending on what you messed up. Since Ruger is about 90 miles from my home, I can live having them replace my barrel if I bend it up.
If I'm willing to go with aftermarket products, well, the sky's the limit and I don't need Ruger for
ANY repairs.
Jim
I saw a nice mini-14 with a flash-hider - still ban compliant as there is no pistol grip.
As for the Tech-sights AK sights - I'll wait on those - clearly nicer than the ruskie sight, but that's expensive. The Mojo's are nice but don't add to the sight radius.
I'm back and forth on the .223 Saiga; I think I'd prefer the 308 Saiga, 20" - I'm waiting to see what MSA comes out with for a mag adapter - they've promised something soon.
@&) *Spelling-cop voice through the bullhorn* It's not "HONOROUS" suggesting that the root word might be "HONOR"....It's "ONEROUS" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Onerous). "HONOROUS" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Honorous) does not exist.*bullhorn off*
*Jack "Joe Friday" Webb voice on*
If we are to consider ourselves a history club/organization with a darn good marksmanship program, we should make every attempt at proper grammar, the better to bring ourselves closer to the minds of the Founders, and the subsequent Defenders, and even the Friends (Winston Churchill comes to mind) of our Nation.
Grasp the language, and you grasp their thoughts. Grasp their thoughts, and the meanings and intents of their various writings leap off the page in stark contrast to the "well, maybe this, and well, maybe that" ambiguity of many peoples' opinions. *squinting* ...or are you high on LSD? *relaxing the squint* *J"JF"Wv off*
*Jackie "Buford T. Justice" Gleason voice on* "Yer gettin' off with just a warnin' this time, Sonny, but, if I have to pull you over again, you'll be having a little talk with my 11th-grade English teacher, "Mad"Martha Bryant.*JBTJGv off*
*Bullhorn back on again*OK, folks, move along...nothing to see, here. Move along... @&)
*switches off bullhorn and stows in the hard-drive*
Quote from: Daniel on July 08, 2009, 07:48:22 PM
I would recommend that anyone interested in a mass/ny legal .223 look into getting a thumbhole stock on an AR. That way you can still have either a flash hider, or use your "pre-ban" hi-cap mags (if you can get them)
Just FYI, pre-ban mags may be used in ANY rifle. More than one "evil feature" requires a pre-ban receiver.
However, this thread is drifting a bit far ... lock, please?
Instead of locking - lets see if we can bring it back on track:
.223's for AWB states:
AR15 -
Good choice, accurate, great sights, but expensive; Also "dirty"
limited "evil features" in AWB states.
PG usual consumes evil feature.
[Would love to validate the thumbhole stock/flash-hider as a supported config. I've heard the argument it still counts as a PG, but have never seen anything definitive, except in 922r terms.]
Mini14 -
Most configurations have no issues (at least with fixed stocks.)
Pre-ban mags hard to find.
(I don't much about Mini14's.)
Saiga 223 -
Reliable, "clean" (doesn't eat where it sh**s)
lowest cost semi (?) short to moderate sight radius (16 or 20" barrels)
TechSights available - albeit expensive.
AR mag adapter available for pre-ban mags
(Also probably include IMI Galil in here, and 5.56 eastern block AK's - except for the mag adapter)
If for whatever reason you're still set on an AR-clone, here's a couple of contrivances that pass Kalifornia law, and so should be good under the marginally-less-onerous NY law. These avoid the 'pistol grip' evilness and so would allow you one of the other evil features if you were so inclined.
http://www.monstermangrip.com/
http://www.californiarifles.com/
They're so funky looking it makes me want one of each, just to have in my collection and pull out to show people how bureacrats cause abominations of engineering.
God awful ugly - that's for sure.
Quote from: gunville on July 09, 2009, 10:23:02 PM
God awful ugly - that's for sure.
Yeah, well, they grow on you.
Kind of like a fungus.
I hope only like fungus and not herpes; you can get rid of fungus.
Quote from: gunville on July 10, 2009, 05:51:26 PM
I hope only like fungus and not herpes; you can get rid of fungus.
but, I suspect the only way to get rid of that ugly-azzed rifle is to another AWB-state resident...otherwise, as Eddie Murphy said about herpes, "...you keep dat fah-evah, like luggage" .... :grossed-out "YUCK!" smiley here: ... Kind of ironic that the ban-people tried to demonize the S.L.U.G. (scary-looking ugly gun) and ended up instigating the thought processes that resembles a deformity. call that one the D-LUG...."Dumb-looking ugly gun" ......I admire the creativity of his "work-around" solution, but, DAMN.... :P
Looks like thisthread has run it's course.