I'm going to the Reno shoot in September, and between now and then, I'd like to learn how to use the rear sight on my Springfield. I have an 03/Mk1 Springfield with a ladder type rear sight. I've had this rifle for a lot years, but I've never found a good explanation for these sights. I've read the blurb over on milsurplus about the sights there, but the markings on my sight don't seem to correlate to what is claimed there.
With my rifle, using the battle sights only (not the ladder) the front sight is basically a 6 o'clock picture out to about 500 yards. This last Thursday, I tried the ladder sight again, sliding the aperature up to the '140' mark, figuring this would be about 140 yards. Sighted on a target at about that range, and the bullet hit at about 80 yards! Tried again, same result. Every time I use the ladder, the bullets are hitting very short of wherever the yardage is set for. The battle sights work well, but there is something about this rear sight that I don't get.
Any help would be appreciated!
seen this page?
http://www.surplusrifle.com/1903/operations.asp
you may be looking thru the wrong hole, or thru the wrong notch on the rear sight,....the article mentions 5 notches and apertures!!!! :-\ :o
I found this page, but, haven't perused it closely.....these guys are usually "right on" for old designs...I've got quite a few milsurps, and don't recall having ever found any inaccuracies in their information O0
The milsurplus link is one that I have bookmarked. The second is this page, which contains a description of what the smaller, unmarked lines of various lengths are:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2k1.html
The problem is interpreting the markings. With the sight up,looking down the barrel, the markings on the right of the slide reads:
long line,
long line,
3
5
7
then a line, which gauging by the length should be a '50' yard mark (so is this 75 yards, plus 50 if I set the bottom sight notch at this line?)
then a 9
then another '50' yard line
then an 11, and this line goes all the way across. According to the one link, this is an alternate 100 yard setting? How do you get 100 from a line reading '11'?
then there is a short line, should be the first 25 yard mark
then a longer line, should be another 50 yard mark
then another short line, another 25 yard mark,
then the number 13.
I'll stop here and run the numbers and lines on the left side up to the same point:
long line,
long line,
4,
6,
half line, should be a 50 yard mark,
8,
half line,
10 (line looks to go all the way across and I've been guessing that this is the one hundred yard mark)
then a long line, matching up to the '11' on the other side, an alternate 100 yard reading?
short line, 25 yard mark
longer line, 50 yard mark
short line, 25 yard mark
12,
long line, seems to go all the way across to the '13' mark on the other side
The bottom sight notch, identified as 'D' on the milsurp link, has at it's base on either side a very tiny line that lines up with these numbers. So, I would assume that when you line up these tiny lines, on these numbers, and then look through the notch centering the front sight and then placing the sight on the target---you should be lined up correctly?
The problem is that I can't make sense of the numbers. I can put a target out at exactly 100 yards, place the bottom sight notch at 10 on the left; get the sight picture I mentioned; and watch the round hit the dirt, usually short.
So, if anybody can shed light on this mystery, I sure would appreciate it.
loneviking;
Can you post a photograph of the rear sight please?
BTW: How did you find out about the Reno Appleseeds?
And are you aware that there is going to be one in Gardnerville (about 50 miles south of Reno) on August 29 & 30?
Finally--were you planning to shoot your '03 for the entire Appleseed? I ask because (about) 400 rounds of .30'06 is (a) expensive and (b) hard on your shoulder! (You're a tougher guy than I am if you can do it! I've shot Over The Course matches (88 rounds if I recall correctly) with an M1 and that was enough for one day! I did bring an M1 to an Appleseed and shot two separate Army Qualification Targets with it--80 rounds total. Again I was done with it after that, and went back to using one of the two .22 LR rifles I also brought along.
loneviking, Geddys uncle is spot on, go to the link above it should give you the info you need, if not go to the forums and sign up and ask away. Best of luck at Reno. AzRon
Quote from: Nevada Smith on June 28, 2009, 08:53:45 PM
loneviking;
Can you post a photograph of the rear sight please?
BTW: How did you find out about the Reno Appleseeds?
And are you aware that there is going to be one in Gardnerville (about 50 miles south of Reno) on August 29 & 30?
Finally--were you planning to shoot your '03 for the entire Appleseed? I ask because (about) 400 rounds of .30'06 is (a) expensive and (b) hard on your shoulder! (You're a tougher guy than I am if you can do it! I've shot Over The Course matches (88 rounds if I recall correctly) with an M1 and that was enough for one day! I did bring an M1 to an Appleseed and shot two separate Army Qualification Targets with it--80 rounds total. Again I was done with it after that, and went back to using one of the two .22 LR rifles I also brought along.
I'll post a pic. tomorrow as I'm working tonight. The sight is identical in shape to the one on the 'milsurplus' link. I looked at the Gardnerville thread but I never saw any firm date. I work weekend nights so I have to ask for time off and ask very early, so I picked the Reno shoot as it looked more definite. I'm going to have to check out that area of Leviathin Mine Rd. I have a buddy with an FN/FAL that shoots out that way somewhere and we've been trying to hook up for some distance shooting---maybe that is the spot. In any case, for future shoots, the Gardnerville range would be the choice for me.
I found out about the Reno appleseed from a flyer in Scheels. A big thank you to whoever did that as I haven't seen anything in Carson City. I like shooting long distance rifle and I'm looking forward to getting better at it.
No, I won't be using the Springfield the entire time. I'll bring the .22's for the bulk of the time, I just hate using 'em. I'm left handed and the semi-autos' spit hot brass all over me and by days end I'm singed all over! I'd give anything to find a reasonably priced .22 that ejects out the LEFT side. But I'll use a fair amount of rounds in the Springfield. I bought a limbsaver last week from Scheels and those pads work really well. I fired off ten rounds on Friday to check some old ammo to see if it was still good, and the recoil was drastically reduced.
As for the ammo, I'll be using my own hand reloads as I can't find anything commercial or used surplus that is economical. Heck, I'm even having a hard time finding .22's!
Bill.
Quote from: loneviking on June 28, 2009, 11:14:29 PM
I found out about the Reno appleseed from a flyer in Scheels. A big thank you to whoever did that as I haven't seen anything in Carson City.
That would be me. I'm glad that panned out!
And now I know I'll have to distribute some in C.C. as well.
Loneviking,
I believe that the numerals you are asking about are HUNDRED YARD Marks, as in 100, 200, 300, 500, 700, 750, You are missing 800, then 900 and so on. The intermediate marks are 50 yard marks like the 750 yard marker.
Same deal on the other side, but for the other sight.
One is for the sliding notch and one is for the sliding peep, and you can generally tell which by which witness line on the peep or notch lines up with what scale on the ladder.
I will have to dig my Springfield out and see what else I can get off of it.
Note, as mentioned in the article cited on the sights, there is MORE THAN ONE rear slight slider, one specifically known as the USMC sight and the last one generally used on Springfields, when they carried them on Guadalcanal. This one had a MUCH LARGER peep sight hole in an attempt to make it work better.
Buckshot
Quote from: Buckshot on June 29, 2009, 01:29:55 AM
Loneviking,
I believe that the numerals you are asking about are HUNDRED YARD Marks, as in 100, 200, 300, 500, 700, 750, You are missing 800, then 900 and so on. The intermediate marks are 50 yard marks like the 750 yard marker.
Same deal on the other side, but for the other sight.
One is for the sliding notch and one is for the sliding peep, and you can generally tell which by which witness line on the peep or notch lines up with what scale on the ladder.
I will have to dig my Springfield out and see what else I can get off of it.
Note, as mentioned in the article cited on the sights, there is MORE THAN ONE rear slight slider, one specifically known as the USMC sight and the last one generally used on Springfields, when they carried them on Guadalcanal. This one had a MUCH LARGER peep sight hole in an attempt to make it work better.
Buckshot
Dig out your Springfield and see what marks and type of sight you have. I've had somebody else make this same suggestion that these are hundred yard marks, but that doesn't make sense when you start with a '3' and a '4'. That has to be either '30' or '40', but '30' or '40' from where? It can't be a '300' yard mark.
And then you hit '7' and what should be a '50' line but that should be '70', so what is the fifty line? It can't be 750 yards as you've barely begun to use the sight. And what about the long lines that go all the way across? Alternate one hundred yard setting?
I don't think that one side is for the open notch and the other for the peep, intriguing as the idea is. There are two small lines at each end of the base of the open notch sight that line up with all of the lines on both sides of the sight. Thanks for the reply though and I'd like to see what marks your sight has.
Here's a link to a slideshow in Photobucket that clearly shows a Springfield like mine being used with the rear 'ladder' sight up. I wish I knew who these guys are!
<http://s583.photobucket.com/albums/ss278/carteach0i/Military%20rifles%20matches/?albumview=slideshow>
Quote from: loneviking on June 29, 2009, 04:50:18 AM
Here's a link to a slideshow in Photobucket that clearly shows a Springfield like mine being used with the rear 'ladder' sight up. I wish I knew who these guys are!
<http://s583.photobucket.com/albums/ss278/carteach0i/Military%20rifles%20matches/?albumview=slideshow>
Is this the type of sight that is on your '03?
(http://i39.tinypic.com/nv9m4p.jpg)
(The image above was taken from one of the pictures in the slideshow you linked to.)
E.T.A.: I just came across this--something to check on your '03 (even though you don't have the 03A3):
The front sight of 03A3 rifles had 5 interchangeable blades labeled 'A' - 'E', with the 'A' being the tallest.
Check the front sight blade on your rifle and see what letter your front sight blade has on it. If you're shooting a 'C' then try a 'B' or 'A' to bring down your point of impact.
The heights of the blade are as follows. Each letter change is worth about 2MOA @ 100yds.
A = 0.537
B = 0.522
C = 0.507
D = 0.492
E = 0.477
Also remember that the sights on the 03A3 were meant for M2 ball ammo, shooting a 150 gr bullet at approx 2800fps.
Here's another source of info:
Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Infantry of The Army of The United States (War Department Document No. 574, 1917)
Note: This is a 18 megabyte file
http://ia310819.us.archive.org/0/items/noncommissionedo00unit/noncommissionedo00unit.pdf
Here are the relevant pages (189 and 190):
(http://i41.tinypic.com/9bhxkz.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2qjewav.jpg)
Nevada Smith, Thank you! That's the explanation I've been looking for and it makes sense. Interesting about the front sight, as the front sight on mine doesn't seem to have a letter on it anywhere. So, the line BELOW the number is the indexing line, and if you're not careful, you can be as much as eight inches off at 500 yards. That sounds about like what I've been doing. Now I see the reason for this little tool:
http://www.ray-vin.com/gunsight/03mike.htm
Thanks also for the link to the military manual. I've looked in all of the rifle and ordinance manuals, but never thought to check out this particular title.
Now to load up some 150 grainers and head out on Wed. or Thurs. for some :~
loneviking;
You're welcome!
I've an interest in acquiring an '03 so I was determined to figure this issue out.
For Appleseed, you'll want to sight-in your rifle for 25 meters (about 27 yards or 82 feet). My .22LR is sighted to shoot about 1/2" high at that range. For a centerfire rifle I believe you use the 200 yard setting; perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
You can find the Appleseed targets here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.0
Quote from: Nevada Smith on June 29, 2009, 08:00:42 PM
loneviking;
You're welcome!
I've an interest in acquiring an '03 so I was determined to figure this issue out.
For Appleseed, you'll want to sight-in your rifle for 25 meters (about 27 yards or 82 feet). My .22LR is sighted to shoot about 1/2" high at that range. For a centerfire rifle I believe you use the 200 yard setting; perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
You can find the Appleseed targets here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.0
82 Feet!?? :o Good grief, that is close----especially with that old Springfield!
Quote from: loneviking on June 29, 2009, 11:50:21 PM82 Feet!?? :o Good grief, that is close----especially with that old Springfield!
The targets are scaled for 100/200/300/400 yards.
Print out the targets, shoot 'em, and let's see what your targets have to say about it!
Quote from: Nevada Smith on June 30, 2009, 12:32:08 AM
Quote from: loneviking on June 29, 2009, 11:50:21 PM82 Feet!?? :o Good grief, that is close----especially with that old Springfield!
The targets are scaled for 100/200/300/400 yards.
Print out the targets, shoot 'em, and let's see what your targets have to say about it!
Oh I know they are scaled, and it will be fun to do with a .22, but with the amount of energy being put downrange by a 150 gr. Spitzer boat tail out of a Springfield---your cardboard target mounts are going to be good for only about five rounds!
Quote from: loneviking on June 29, 2009, 03:35:59 AM
Quote from: Buckshot on June 29, 2009, 01:29:55 AM
Loneviking,
I believe that the numerals you are asking about are HUNDRED YARD Marks, as in 100, 200, 300, 500, 700, 750, You are missing 800, then 900 and so on. The intermediate marks are 50 yard marks like the 750 yard marker.
Same deal on the other side, but for the other sight.
One is for the sliding notch and one is for the sliding peep, and you can generally tell which by which witness line on the peep or notch lines up with what scale on the ladder.
I will have to dig my Springfield out and see what else I can get off of it.
Note, as mentioned in the article cited on the sights, there is MORE THAN ONE rear slight slider, one specifically known as the USMC sight and the last one generally used on Springfields, when they carried them on Guadalcanal. This one had a MUCH LARGER peep sight hole in an attempt to make it work better.
Buckshot
Dig out your Springfield and see what marks and type of sight you have. I've had somebody else make this same suggestion that these are hundred yard marks, but that doesn't make sense when you start with a '3' and a '4'. That has to be either '30' or '40', but '30' or '40' from where? It can't be a '300' yard mark.
And then you hit '7' and what should be a '50' line but that should be '70', so what is the fifty line? It can't be 750 yards as you've barely begun to use the sight. And what about the long lines that go all the way across? Alternate one hundred yard setting?
I don't think that one side is for the open notch and the other for the peep, intriguing as the idea is. There are two small lines at each end of the base of the open notch sight that line up with all of the lines on both sides of the sight. Thanks for the reply though and I'd like to see what marks your sight has.
loneviking,
Did not get to dig out the Springfield yet, but I see that Nevada Smith posted a picture that matches my sight (less the white filled marks and letters/numbers).
His information and that from the manual he posted both indicate that they are, in fact 100 yd. and 50 yd marks. There are no numbers below 3 (300 yds.) because the divisions on the sight are too small to put the nubers in there!
Looks like you have it sorted out, though, now.
Buckshot
Yea, no numbers as they won't fit, but the lines are there and the sight can line up with them. What's interesting is last night I got a response to an e-mail query I sent off to a guy with a blog on old military rifles at:
<http://carteach0.blogspot.com/>
He mentioned that the sight goes all the way out to well over 2,000 yards, but no rifleman was expected to be accurate at that range. Those long ranges were designed to be used for volley fire against massed troops in WW1. I had never heard that before.
He also gave me a link over to a friends' blog where there is a good article and picture of the Mk1 Springfield as well as info on other old battle rifles from various countries. That site is:
<http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/05/springfield-m1903-mark-i-american-icon.html>
So, check these two sites out for lots of good info. Buckshot, you might want to find one of those limbsaver recoil pads. It didn't take much too convince me that I'd found something for the long haul. Maybe we'll meet on the firing line somewhere with our Springfields!
Quote from: loneviking on June 30, 2009, 01:05:59 AMOh I know they are scaled, and it will be fun to do with a .22, but with the amount of energy being put downrange by a 150 gr. Spitzer boat tail out of a Springfield---your cardboard target mounts are going to be good for only about five rounds!
{ Laughing }
As you can see in this (http://tinyurl.com/l84kyx) picture taken at the Elko Appleseed, the targets were set against the berm. When I shot my M1 Garand there was a breeze left-to-right--well, sir, the dust cloud was so big that it obscured the two adjacent targets off to the right. (Sorry about that, Terry & Susan!) Although the plastic target backers held up just fine. Can't say the same for the stringing wire--my ill adjusted sights keenly cut the wire like I was aiming for it! (Sorry about that, Laylopro!)
So do any of the Appleseed shoots actually give the big guns a chance to unlimber and qualify at 400 to 600 yards? I ask as I know it's a very different game at those long ranges in the desert. The air heats up and the bullets lift; the air dries out, the mirages shimmer making things appear closer than they are; the side gusts start puffing in at 10 to 15 mph but intermittently---and you then have a whole different ballgame.
Quote from: loneviking on June 29, 2009, 11:50:21 PM
82 Feet!?? :o Good grief, that is close----especially with that old Springfield!
I think you'll find the US Army zeroed them at 1000 inches. That works out to 83 feet 4 inches. When the M14 came around, they went to 25 meters, which is 82 feet.
They definitely shot them close up. And, backers hold up much better than you may think.
The great things about cardboard are that it's, well, cardboard and it's usually free.
I think that you will find that if you do some serious practice at 25m you will perform much better when you start shooting at 400 or more. Everything Appleseed teaches you about 25m is applicable at 400.
My 1903 was sporterized with an afterwar barrel, lyman peep, and sporter stock. Though it lacks swivels, I consider it one of my most accurate rifles. One of these days, I will get swivels and a sling and then see just how accurate it can be.
Until a couple of years ago all we shot at Appleseeds was .30-06 or 7.62 somethingorother. The targets hold up just fine! ;) Remember that what's at work here is minute of angle, so holding 4 moa at 25 meters is still holding 4 moa. If you can do that at 25 you can do it at 500. So work to keep all the rounds in that 1 inch square!
Some ranges do offer the opportunity to shoot at normal distances, out to 400 or 500 yards. (Some even have long range available) We usually do this on the second half of the program on Sunday, so you'll have things well in hand by then, having gotten squared away at 25 and recording that data for a base setting to start on the normal ranges.
BTW- Shooting the AQT with the 1903 is my next goal! Good luck and dry fire a lot! JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on June 30, 2009, 12:03:18 PM
BTW- Shooting the AQT with the 1903 is my next goal! Good luck and dry fire a lot! JB
You're welcome to come up and use mine.
I've even got good strippers for it. Swedish Mauser strippers work best, so I'm told. I just know they work.
If you're around 6 ft. tall or better with long arms the 03 won't fit you very well. The butt stock is just too short. It might have fit my grandpa just fine but he was 5 ft 8 & 1/2" tall.
The 03A3's seem to have a longer butt stock on them. The M1917 fits me best.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on June 30, 2009, 12:03:18 PM
Until a couple of years ago all we shot at Appleseeds was .30-06 or 7.62 somethingorother. The targets hold up just fine! ;) Remember that what's at work here is minute of angle, so holding 4 moa at 25 meters is still holding 4 moa. If you can do that at 25 you can do it at 500. So work to keep all the rounds in that 1 inch square!
Some ranges do offer the opportunity to shoot at normal distances, out to 400 or 500 yards. (Some even have long range available) We usually do this on the second half of the program on Sunday, so you'll have things well in hand by then, having gotten squared away at 25 and recording that data for a base setting to start on the normal ranges.
BTW- Shooting the AQT with the 1903 is my next goal! Good luck and dry fire a lot! JB
Getting used to figuring a MOA (4 moa is 4 inches?) is what I need to work on. I would guess from what I've learned of my sight that working below 100 yards is going to be a challenge. I think I'm going to load up some 1oo gr. Speer 'Plinking' rounds.
BTW, when you dry fire one of the old rifles, do you use a spent casing or have you found a springloaded 'dummy' round that works well?
at 25 meters, 4 MOA is just about 1 inch.
at 100 yds. 4 MOA is just about 4 inches.
Some folks want to quote the small decimal portions of the difference but those are quite a bit smaller than a bullet hole, so I don't worry about'em.
Quote from: loneviking on June 30, 2009, 12:56:22 PM
BTW, when you dry fire one of the old rifles, do you use a spent casing or have you found a springloaded 'dummy' round that works well?
Assuming you reload, make up your own dummy rounds with bullet only. To avoid mixing them with live ammo, I also drill a hole through the case in addition to removing the primer. I've heard of some hyper-vigilant individuals inserting an eraser into the primer pocket, but never had a problem without it. Then start practicing the AQT, reloading with a stripper clip. I got so I could reload five rounds faster out of a stripper clip than most of the guys shooting M1a's and M14's could switch mags. The secret is smooth bolt manipulation and reloads. Concentrate on smooth - fast will come with practice.