Hi!
I've read the Appleseed material and this site pretty heavily, so I understand that Appleseed is basically very pragmatic, ie. do what works. From what I can see, that includes both the prescribed starting positions and, once the shooter settles in, whatever he chooses. With that said, I've been looking at the Appleseed pics from Toccoa, Pioneer, and other shoots and noticed a couple of things:
1. The seated position prescribed by Appleseed is cross-legged, "Indian-style."
(http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7651.0;attach=9679;image)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/229553/13th%20052.jpg)
The seated position for the Army, from the WWII Army M1 Garand training films, is seated with feet flat on the ground, knees bent, and elbows situated well outboard the knees. Is there a reason for choosing the Indian-style over the Army style? For instance, is cross-legged more comfortable for more people, or something like that? It certainly is much more comfortable that the Army position was for me, but I'm not a youngster anymore.
2. The kneeling position prescribed for Appleseed features the trigger side foot vertically set under the rump.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/229553/13th%20055.jpg)
From what I can see of the kneeling position in the same Army training films, they lay the trigger side foot over on its side and sit on it. Same question here.
I'm not seeking to correct at all - I'm pretty green. I'm just interested in the motivations for the differences as I work up my own positions, doing the exercises suggest prior to coming to my first Appleseed. I always over-think the plumbing. ::)
Thanks for any replies.
Bob
Quote from: Bob Womack on June 16, 2009, 06:32:24 PM
Appleseed is basically very pragmatic, ie. do what works.
Bingo!
We are not all 19 years old, physically fit in the prime of youth, yet we can (with effort) get into reliably stable shooting positions. I would rather see a modified (but safe) sitting or kneeling position than have an empty spot on the line if the day comes where every shot counts.
For kneeling, my presentation includes both:
a) Heel pointed straight up
b) Side of foot lying firmly on the ground
For sitting, my presentation includes:
a) Cross legged (we used to say indian style) (upper arm on front of leg, or elbow on side of boots)
b) Cross ankle (ankles further from the shooters body)
c) Open leg (as you saw in the old military training material)
Cross legged is far more stable than open leg, but we each have to find a position that we can actually get into.
Keep up the good work!
Yeah, unfortunately seated has to be made to fit every shooter's body type.
However, ideally, it should not be "Indian Style". See below for what I think is just about a perfect position. If it can be done with stability, you should not have your feet flat on the sides, but rather, "dug in" with the sides of your boots. It's very tough to change elevation with "Indian Style" without using muscle.... and we all know using muscle is bad. With what you see below with this young lady's feet, it is easy to change elevation and keep some semblance of NPOA by moving your feet closer together or farther apart.
Also notice how it's easier for her to keep her support elbow directly under the rifle. Harder to do with a flat Indian style, in my experience.
IMHO, this is how it should look and how it should be demonstrated to the students (with the caveat given that shooters will have to figure out what works best for them, while they stretch and work towards this ideal demo over time).
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d170/MeanStreaker592/christysit-1.jpg)
Allow me to clarify the "Indian Style" position.
As a child I sat that way and my toes pointed out and kind of caught in the inside of the crook of my knee. Not good for a rifleman.
Instead: Foot is at 90 degrees to the lower leg and the shin/calf is directly on top of the ball of one foot, and the instep of the other. The trigger side foot is on the inside of the position.
And most important is "Elbows in Front of Knees". You want the meaty part of your tricep (above the elbow, so closer to shoulder than wrist) to be in contact below your knee (closer to your ankle than your hip).
For the 1 in a 1000 people that can do it this is an awesome position, not very helpful to most of us but something to strive for.
(http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7649.0;attach=9692;image)
He was one of our shooters at the Sacramento Appleseed.
Yup, I'm trying out the various positions and trying to get as much of the prelims behind me before the shoot. I've found that with the legs more flat, I like one of my feet out front and with the ankles crossed and out, I prefer trigger ankle behind like you say.
Bob
Quote from: BaldDragn on June 16, 2009, 07:57:11 PM
For the 1 in a 1000 people that can do it this is an awesome position, not very helpful to most of us but something to strive for.
(http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7649.0;attach=9692;image)
He was one of our shooters at the Sacramento Appleseed.
That's not a sitting position, not as described in any military or highpower manual.
"5.10 sitting - Weight of the body supported on the buttocks and the feet or ankles, no other portion of the body touching the ground. The rifle will be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. Arms may rest on the legs at any point above the ankles."
I can see he's shooting a .22, that position may work for that but it provides no platform for dealing with the recoil of a service rifle. The stock is on his bicep, not in the pocket, etc. Other than demonstrating flexibility I see very little utility in that position.
Quote from: mtmisfit on June 16, 2009, 08:24:21 PM
I can see he's shooting a .22, that position may work for that but it provides no platform for dealing with the recoil of a service rifle. The stock is on his bicep, not in the pocket, etc. Other than demonstrating flexibility I see very little utility in that position.
I would like to see him do that with a M1 Garand... :)
3 types of sitting, plus all the variations of kneeling are acceptable. The variations are different ways of placing the trigger foot.
You have to find one that works for you.
From steadiest to loosest.
Cross-legged.
Cross-ankled.
Open-legged.
Kneeling.
Excellent resource! O0
I can't do prone because of neck issues so I do a lot of sitting instead. I'm shooting a Rifleman score between standing and sitting so you can imagine that my sitting position is pretty tight and accurate.
Every body type is different and as we age, somethings just don't bend like they used to. Some can't do cross-legged and personally, I don't get nearly the stability in the butt and heel stance as I do in the crossed-ankles, hips on the ground and triceps buried on the leading tibia and trailing thigh. It may take a few minutes of stretching but once my torso settles down and allows me to put my weight on my elbows, I have found this to be a very stable and effective position. While I have not yet scored 100 from the bottom row of the AQT, I am regularly scoring in the high 70's.
Watching the same Army training videos at the OP, the instructor says that those with longer limbs may find the cross-legged position easier and more effective. Sixty four years later our general population has grown both in length and girth and the reality may be that the butt/heel position just doesn't work for many of us anymore.
I like your pup, Jimbtv. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, Jim, Nickel, eaglescouter, meanstreaker, et. al. I'm 52, not exactly dead yet, and not horribly overweight, but the butt and heels with open legs stance from the WWII M1 Marksmanship movie is pretty uncomfy. It looks like any degree of center roll is a mass to compress around. That causes breathing instability that affects rifle instability. Pragmatism can be a wonderful thing...
Bob
I find that as a woman, the open legged knees up feet flat position works best for me for seated shooting (like Ashley in the pic above). I have noticed that womens knees sit lower when crosslegged than most mens (hip joint position is diff on pelvis for us). For me that means I have to lean over too far for comfort,breathing and then my arm length is wrong for the target height. I think guys, with their generally higher leg position and longer arms manage crosslegged shooting better. YMMV.
A tip on open-legged sitting. Some of you will NOT be able to get your feet flat. Don't worry about it if you can't, it still works with the feet tipped back some.
Quote from: Bob Womack on June 17, 2009, 09:58:31 AM...That causes breathing instability that affects rifle instability...
Oh, trust me, there's plenty of rocking and rolling going on when I'm in that position. This is where NPOA and breathing techniques are an absolute must. If it weren't for the gunshots all around me people would probably be surprised at all the huffs, puffs, and moans eminating from this piece of lard. ^-^ But I have learned to manage this little dance between my breathing, my gut, my elbows and the front sight on my 10/22. "Dancing with the Stars" it's not... but it does put a few strategic holes in a piece of paper with some regularity.
Quote from: MeanStreaker on June 16, 2009, 07:19:04 PM
And most important is "Elbows in Front of Knees". You want the meaty part of your tricep (above the elbow, so closer to shoulder than wrist) to be in contact below your knee (closer to your ankle than your hip).
You do not want to get into the meat of the tricep, you want that flat spot between the tip of the elbow and where the tricep begins to take shape. Muscle/flab should be avoided, bone to bone is the goal.
One of the most mis-understood part of sitting is the placement of elbows. It is not target side, it is inside and forward. If you only say "Forward" many folks consider the target the front of themselves, and they end up with the support elbow on the outside of the knee.
Also note, the forward of the knees is really only an issue to help absorb recoil from highpower rifles, folks shooting rimfires and especially younger shooters will do fine with the elbows wedged in the "V" of their knees. in this case, the bone on the inside of the knee is touching the bone on the outside of the elbow and a consistant front to back position is maintained by the "V" or Crook of the knee.
Okay, that makes sense. Bone to bone. My legs are pretty short, so I've got to figure out what is best. I'm 5'9" and my legs are exactly as long as those of my wife who is 5' and 1/2". TORSO MAN!
Thanks,
Bob
If my left elbow is not resting on my right boot, I am not low enough for effective and accurate fire. I am 58 Y/O and at least 50lb overweight with a large stomach muscle. Every evening, I spend 5 to 10 minutes in front of the TV in a unarmed sitting position, stretching things. Sitting is very comfortable to me, I need a crane to get up though.. Mastering a good sitting position takes a lot of work, but is not impossible.
FWIW
Quote from: dmdrews on June 19, 2009, 10:39:10 PM
If my left elbow is not resting on my right boot, I am not low enough for effective and accurate fire.
Occasionally I run across individuals who have a "different" sitting position which seems to work for them. Yours sounds like one of those. Not "textbook" but if it works and is truly stable for you as can be proven in muzzle "bump" drills, then it is meeting the intention. :)
Quote from: Garand69 on June 19, 2009, 09:41:05 AM
You do not want to get into the meat of the tricep, you want that flat spot between the tip of the elbow and where the tricep begins to take shape. Muscle/flab should be avoided, bone to bone is the goal.
Yeah, tricep isn't correct. What I wanted to get across was to make sure that you're not on the "ball" of your elbow, but above that. Tricep is too far.
Quote from: fepowered on June 19, 2009, 11:23:37 PM
Quote from: dmdrews on June 19, 2009, 10:39:10 PM
If my left elbow is not resting on my right boot, I am not low enough for effective and accurate fire.
Occasionally I run across individuals who have a "different" sitting position which seems to work for them. Yours sounds like one of those. Not "textbook" but if it works and is truly stable for you as can be proven in muzzle "bump" drills, then it is meeting the intention. :)
I should have specified that I use a modified crossed ankle position. My right foot is under my left calf and sticks out, therefore, I have the inside edge of my right boot to rest my left elbow on. I am a right handed shooter. Both elbows are well forward and below the kneecaps.
The position is highly stable.
I don't think this is "different"..... Is it?
Nearly everybody shoots the standing position the same. Nearly everbody shoots the prone position the same. Hardly anybody shoots the sitting positions the same. It is the one positon that requires lots of variations due to body/ rifle geometry and physical limitations.
We give the shooters a basic "design" and then work with it to find what works for them. If you walk the line looking at shooters in their stage two positions they will be essentially the same, but minor variations will stand out. The thing is to catch and correct things that will not build a stable platform or be readily repeatable. (Consistency)
Second stage is where the Instructor earns his pay. They really need to get down in the dirt and work with the shooter to find the problems and straighten them out. Once the shooter finds what works, well, it's like my old high school coach used to say: "Nothing succeeds like success!" In other words, do what works.
Quote from: dmdrews on June 29, 2009, 07:34:30 PM
I should have specified that I use a modified crossed ankle position. My right foot is under my left calf and sticks out, therefore, I have the inside edge of my right boot to rest my left elbow on. I am a right handed shooter. Both elbows are well forward and below the kneecaps.
The position is highly stable.
I don't think this is "different"..... Is it?
Yes, it is "different". Stability is relative. "Highly stable" would indicate that regardless of the rifle you are using, your position is stable. "Relatively stable" can vary depending on the rifle. Your position appears to work for you because your weight is forward. A .22 does not have the recoil to push back against your weight in this position. Where is your right elbow resting? "Bump" drills test unique positions. Any truly stable sitting position will allow you to rock a bit with the recoil and return to your NPOA. You do not have your legs sticking out behind you to absorb the recoil, therefore your body WILL be pushed/rocked backward with each shot. If your elbows are not supported properly, recoil will move them from your NPOA and you will string shots.
I just noticed your post in reference to you shooting at Camp Perry. Obviously you are using this position for center fire rifles and you are doing "what works" for you. My suggestion is that you may be doing what works but you may not be doing what is best for you. No one is ever going to force you to change anything at an Appleseed unless it is unsafe. Instructors are here to help, not to dictate or order shooters to shoot exactly what the textbook suggests. Unique may not always be useful, but unique is not necessarily wrong either.
If you find that you are not stable without your elbow down on your ankle, then there may be something you are not doing correctly regarding the basics of the sitting position. For the long run, it may be worth your while to have an instructor work with you on these essentials of the sitting position before you decide to discard them forever and continue with your "different" version. Something as simple as the sling adjustment or your angle to the target can make a huge difference. Just a suggestion and you are obviously free to ignore it as such..... O0
My right elbow is in front of my right knee. The height of the elbow is adjusted for fine adjustments of NPOA as far as elevation. If I needed to, but never have had to, the elbow could touch the ground. That would not be a legal sitting position though as another poster has stated.
Because of two bad knees, I can't use the cross legged position. I just can't bend my knees that far anymore.
But, if I start out with a cross ankle position, then slide my right ankle up under my left calf, I can lean forward with both elbows well forward and below the knees. Actually the back of my upper arm is in contact with the knees.
I stretch every evening in front of the TV cuz I am 58 this year and not as flexible as I used to be. I use this for M1, M1A, AR, heck everything. I think I am not doing a good job explaining my position.
I appreciate your words and insight. I will be at Lodi in July and will seek out advice on the line.
Regards
dmdrews, if you can find a copy of David Tubb's book "Highpower" he covers building a good sitting position. He favors cross-ankle over cross-leg because he believes that recoil causes the shooter to rock back too far in the cross-leg position, which uses up a little extra time each shot. I adopted his cross-ankle position (your position sounds quite similar) with an aggressive forward lean and it worked pretty well for me, though I had to shoot with a rightwards-canted rifle and had to add a minute left windage to compensate. Extremely steady and quick recovery.