Just came into a Bushmaster DCM rifle. Have not shot it yet but will this week.
It has a 1 in 8 barrel and the only ammo I have is surplus 855 and 109.
Which do you think I should try?
To keep to the subject, I have never loaded any 5.56 ammo but have loaded other calibers for many years.
What bullets do you suggest for this rifle?
What powder?
I know what primers to use but will have to buy some.
What do you think about buying some of the surplus bullets? 55 or 62 gr.?
Thanks
Ken
I just recently bought my son a Rock River M4 with a chrome-lined 1 in 9 twist.
I have loaded .223 for his single shot NEF with a 55 grain Sierra BTSP with 26 grains of Reloader 15 which is very accurate in this rifle (He killed two deer last year - both one-shot kills at 100 and 175 yards), but I haven't loaded for his M4 yet.
I also bought some surplus 55 and 62 grain for practice and reloading the military brass. After I accumulate enough once-fired brass I'm going to try 68 grain Hornady and 69 grain Sierra OTM bullets with Reloader 15 and Varget.
I have several rifles that like Reloader 15 (30-06 bolt action, 22-250 bolt action, .223 single shot, 30-30 lever action, and have had success with it in my M1A with 165 grain and 168 grain bullets even though it may be slightly slow burning for it's gas system) so it would be easy to simplify my powder stock if the Rock River likes it.
However, I have read other shooters think Reloader 15 burns too dirty for an AR (I haven't noticed this with my other rifles), but I will have to check it out myself.
I have also heard of good accuracy with Varget, but one shooter said his barrel burned out prematurely at the lands using it. This I will have to check out for myself also.
Good luck (Tens and X's)
Ken,
I have a Bushmaster that does very well with 109 ammo.
It has 1-8 barrel. The 55gr stuff works ok to, but I get better groups with the 109.
Reloading is another issue and I would need to look at my loading data log to see which loads worked best.
I will look if you want to know. I shot NRA high power for quite a while and kept good records at that time.
USGI M855 Ball is nothing more than the US version of NATO SS109 ammo. Both are 62 grain, with steel pentrators.
Ken, 62 grain should work better at medium to long range in that (300 and up), and 55 should work OK at short range (200 and under). That is based on the twist. Your Mileage May Vary, as your rifle may just happen to like the 55's better. Try small amounts of both, and go accordingly.
I reload for my DMPS, however I have a 1-9 twist. I mostly use Winchester 748 for a couple of reason. First I try to duplicate Military Specs for my ammo. That way I can pick up Surplus ammo and it should shoot close to my reloads. Second it meters very very well. I have found that Varget and long extruded powders are hard to load in mass because my powder throws do not like them. Further more Win 748 is easy on your barrel. I have also had good success with Win 748 loaded for my FAL. It is nice to have just one powder that you can interchange.
I am not saying there are not more accurate powders available for the 223, however Win 748 does allot of things very well. You may be able to squeeze a little extra accuracy out of your AR using another powder but you may have to sacrifice some things in the process.
So far as the bullet weight 62 grains should perform the best in your rifle with a 1-8 twist, however there is no guarantee and you will just have to shoot it to determine that. Lastly, if you can find surplus bullets they are the way to go. Good luck
cannonman, I would be most thankful for any loading data you could give me.
I have been reloading since the late 50's but never loaded for semi's except pistols.
6 years ago, I had a complete reloading shop set-up and lost it all to a fire.
Now I only have a small set-up and will have to get everything for loading an AR.
Thanks for the PDF
If you can get some Black Hills ammo either "new' or "reman" in Hornady 68gr or 75gr or Sierra 69gr or 77 gr bullets you will have a good baseline for your DCM Bushmaster. Mine will do close to 1/4 moa with any of them out to at least 600yds.
Reloading
The best results across the board are using Varget powder and the Sierra 77 bullet. The USAMU use this combo and consistently whack the hell out of everyone in competition. Followed closely by the Hornady 75's or 75 AMAX.
1/4 MOA at 600 yds.????? :o Is that with one shot? ;D
Yeah, benched w/ a scope by a shooter much better than I am. Bushmaster really has a pretty good barrel. Compass Lake is a little better, but I'll never notice the difference.
has anyone here gotten a chance to try the 450. "Thumper" that bushmaster came out with a while back?
the concepts behind the round seem rather interesting, but i have'nt been able to get any trigger time w/ one yet.
60gr Sierra HP
Ramshot TAC powder
Surplus bullets are good for plinking/practice. Usually not as consistent/accurate as the commercial offerings but if they're cheap enough are worth trying.
Quote from: ken grant on August 29, 2007, 09:51:58 PM
1/4 MOA at 600 yds.????? :o Is that with one shot? ;D
1 minute at 600 yards = approx. 6"
Quarter minute at 600 yards = approx. 2"
I imagine that can be done with 3 shot groups. Perhaps not with super consistency, but it could be done.
Hello Group; The ss109`s do not like a slower twist as in the PRE A-2 ARxm15a1-16a1 a one in twelve at least the one that I have 1980`s vintage AR tends to put them sideways at 25, the 1 in 9 shoots them fine. I wonder why the bolt guns from Rem and Ruger CZ all list a one in twelve twist rate. Could it be that the SS109 is not stable in the one in twelve twist and the lead corr comercial projectiles will be stable at that twist rate? This is just an Observation with my own practical experience. Can any one shed any lite or insight on this. Pappy
pappy,
Those commercial rifles are made for .223 Rem. A DIFFERENT cartridge than 5.56.
.223 does not perform real well with heavy bullets, (neither does 5.56 but we aren't going there)
it is designed to shoot vermin and it is really at it's best with 50-55 gr bullets shooting groundhogs.
It is rifled for the specified ammunition. Actually the 1-12" is a compromise as it really performs best at 1-14"
Sam
Quote from: SamD on February 13, 2009, 02:16:49 AM
pappy,
Those commercial rifles are made for .223 Rem. A DIFFERENT cartridge than 5.56.
.223 does not perform real well with heavy bullets, (neither does 5.56 but we aren't going there)
it is designed to shoot vermin and it is really at it's best with 50-55 gr bullets shooting groundhogs.
It is rifled for the specified ammunition. Actually the 1-12" is a compromise as it really performs best at 1-14"
Sam
I was under the impression that 5.56 actually does much better (especially in an antipersonnel role) with heavier bullets, like Mk.262/Mod1 77gr SMK's and Hornady 75gr TAP, than it does with lighter bullets, like M193 Ball. And .223/5.56 loaded with 80gr+ VLD bullets are used in matches out to 1000yds. Not to say that it'd be the most effective combat round at that distance, but it does go that far and stay supersonic out there...
Also, the Army found in initial testing with 55gr loads that 1:14 barely stabilized 55gr under normal conditions, and not enough in cold air.
1:12 twist was the answer for 55gr loads. However, you're right, the really light loads like "Varmint Grenade" and such do perform quite well out of a very slow twist, usually 1:12 or 1:14.
Hence why "sporting" .223 bolt guns are barreled with such a slow twist: they aren't generally intended for the premium antipersonnel ammunition, but rather for the lighter, faster varmint rounds.
if my memory of research from 30 years ago is still good, the .222 was considered too slow so Remington (.223 Remington) added a little length to the body, shortened the neck and got another 150 fps over the .222 Remington to satisfy the military desire for a little more velocity.
The .222 is fine varmint/target round - what is was developed for. The .223 is a modified target/varmint round. The heavy bullets are an attempt to fix problems resulting from using a target/varmint round for something else. The commercial bolt actions are still built for use as a target/varmint rifle, so the slow twists work for those bullets.
I still have my 30 year old Rem. M700 varmint special. Great rifle. It doesn't miss, I did, a few times.
Quote from: Old Dog on February 13, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
if my memory of research from 30 years ago is still good, the .222 was considered too slow so Remington (.223 Remington) added a little length to the body, shortened the neck and got another 150 fps over the .222 Remington to satisfy the military desire for a little more velocity.
The .222 is fine varmint/target round - what is was developed for. The .223 is a modified target/varmint round. The heavy bullets are an attempt to fix problems resulting from using a target/varmint round for something else. The commercial bolt actions are still built for use as a target/varmint rifle, so the slow twists work for those bullets.
I still have my 30 year old Rem. M700 varmint special. Great rifle. It doesn't miss, I did, a few times.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing about the "converted varmint round" bit. I do, though, think that .276 Pedersen should have been the WW2 standard US cartridge, especially after the Pig Board tests in the 1920s or 1930s showed it to actually be more devastating to flesh for the first couple hundred yards or so, and basically identical after that, except that it was lighter to carry and more of them fit in all the proposed new service rifles (imagine a Garand holding 10 rounds on the same-size enbloc and possibly weighing slightly less, maybe being a little shorter and handier too).
then again, the SCHV tests and boards and such in the 1950s showed that 7 men with 5.56 could outgun 11 with 7.62 NATO, even if the NATO guys' individual rounds were better through barriers like trees and brick walls.
However, the heavy bullets are proving to be a decent fix in 5.56, even out to a few hundred meters. Supposedly, some special teams Over There have gotten 1-shot kills with Mk.262 and similar types at 500-600m and occasionally beyond.
But like I said, a .276 long ago would have been better, and a 6.X mm cartridge is something I think the AR15 platform would benefit from immensely.
:) ;) Hello Group; So the 1 in 12 twist will not shoot the heavier bullets well. If I am after a bolt gun to shoot the heaver bullets then the twist must be 1 in 9 like the A2-A4 or better for the best effect on the target. Thanks fellows, You have reinforced what I had thought that the larger bullets need a faster twist rate to stabilize them what ever the target maybe. AS always Pappy
Quote from: JohnCBobcat on February 13, 2009, 08:47:49 AM
I'm not necessarily disagreeing about the "converted varmint round" bit. I do, though, think that .276 Pedersen should have been the WW2 standard US cartridge, especially after the Pig Board tests in the 1920s or 1930s showed it to actually be more devastating to flesh for the first couple hundred yards or so, and basically identical after that, except that it was lighter to carry and more of them fit in all the proposed new service rifles (imagine a Garand holding 10 rounds on the same-size enbloc and possibly weighing slightly less, maybe being a little shorter and handier too).
then again, the SCHV tests and boards and such in the 1950s showed that 7 men with 5.56 could outgun 11 with 7.62 NATO, even if the NATO guys' individual rounds were better through barriers like trees and brick walls.
However, the heavy bullets are proving to be a decent fix in 5.56, even out to a few hundred meters. Supposedly, some special teams Over There have gotten 1-shot kills with Mk.262 and similar types at 500-600m and occasionally beyond.
But like I said, a .276 long ago would have been better, and a 6.X mm cartridge is something I think the AR15 platform would benefit from immensely.
From a technical standpoint maybe. From a logistical standpoint the .276 would have been a disaster. There were warehouses full of 30-06 ammo, the '03 Springfield was 30-06, the 1917 Enfield was 30-06, all the light machine guns were 30-06, the manufacturers already had the capability of making 30-06....
Keeping the 30-06 was the best logistical choice that could have been made at the time.
You know, most of the discussion is way past SOMSOM.
I'll leave you with a couple of things to think about, and remind you that I like all calibers.
They say "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" and Son of Martha says "Perfection is the enemy of good enough".
Both apply to the caliber wars. And that detracts from the mission.
Now, back to Pappy's question.
100% correct on the twist, with a little bit of qualification.
I have used 63 grain bullets (Sierra flat base soft points) in a 12-14" (somewhere around there) 22-250, and they worked well, even fairly accuarate. Rifle was a Rem 788.
Twist requirement isn't an issue of bullet weight, it's an issue of bullet LENGTH.
Velocity is also involved. If you drive it fast enough, it will stabilize.
What Nickle said. My bushie loves the Sierra 69 grain Match bullets at about 3100 feet per second. It has a 1in8 twist. I prefer the CCI41 for primers and Lake City brass as it's tougher than woodpecker lips. Try a coupla different powders. Varget's good, surplus 844, O0