Howdy from Texas 🤠
I just signed up for my first Appleseed event next weekend. This will actually be my first time shooting a rifle since the Boy Scouts (over 20 years ago, oh my God when did I become old?!?!)
Anywho, I bought a BCM Recce-11 SBR exactly one day after the ATF finally allowed FFL's to start selling them without NFA paperwork (but 66 days after Judge Hendrix ordered them to.)
Now I'm having trouble figuring out how to attach a USGI cotton sling to it, in such a way that will allow me to do the Appleseed drills ... the "old-fashioned" way.
I am thinking that I will probably buy aMagpul MAG809 (https://magpul.com/m-lok-gi-sling-swivel.html) instead of using the more common Magpul MAG606 + MAG540 combo, because the MAG809 is designed to emulate the "old-fashioned" front mounting swivel of an original M16, while the MAG606 + MAG540 is a more modern "special forces" type of swivel.
However, I have no idea how to attach the rear of the sling to my BCM Mod 0 stock. And I don't really want to replace the stock with a USGI stock. Below is an image of the stock that came with my Recce-11.
Oh, and I am a right-handed shooter if that makes a difference.
(https://i.imgur.com/wnRbkrg.jpeg)
According to that stock's product page (https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-stock-mod-0-black/) it is compatible with MAG540 (or competitor). Just disassemble the sling and replace the J-hook with a MAG540.
In my experience, the QD swivel system on the front that you describe (MAG606+MAG540) poses no impediment to using the sling the way we teach it. Every rifle I've brought to an Appleseed and shot Rifleman with, uses that system.
I would use the MAG606 for the front, and get two MAG540's. One for the front, and the second one just clips into your stock in the back.
The reason I'd go QD in the front is just because it gives you the option to remove your sling entirely from your rifle.
This allows you to leave your rifle on the line, and mess with the sling while the rifle is still "safe."
Some people even wear the sling around their arm the entire event, and just attach it to the rifle when they come to the line.
Quote from: mmirate on October 15, 2026, 04:26:15 PMIn my experience, the QD swivel system on the front that you describe (MAG606+MAG540) poses no impediment to using the sling the way we teach it. Every rifle I've brought to an Appleseed and shot Rifleman with, uses that system.
Don't we
not want the attachment points to able to rotate 360 degrees?? For special-forces stuff that makes sense, but won't it interfere with using the sling as a brace to stabilize shooting in an Appleseed event?
In the original M1, M14, M16, and M4 systems (before Picatinny rails and KeyMod and M-Lok) all we had were "swivels" that could bend 180 degrees". The modern swivel systems can both "bend" 180 degrees and also "rotate" 360 degrees (multiple times, if need be.) So that's what I'm trying to emulate, as close as possible, with the MAG809 on the front. I just need help figuring out what to do about the rear?
And when reading the "Assembling a Liberty Training Rifle" document, it included the following picture for the type of swivels we'd need. So that's what I was planning on using. And why would I use the USGI cotton sling if I was just planning on removing the J-hook and putting two MAG540's on both ends? In that case, wouldn't I just be better off using a Vickers sling, or another modern "tactical" sling.
To be clear, I *do* plan on buying a Vickers sling eventually. But I wasn't going to bring it to Appleseed.
(https://i.imgur.com/OC5kV7y.png)
Ah! These are good questions!
Quote from: crater33 on October 18, 2026, 12:12:59 PMDon't we not want the attachment points to able to rotate 360 degrees?? For special-forces stuff that makes sense, but won't it interfere with using the sling as a brace to stabilize shooting in an Appleseed event?
In the original M1, M14, M16, and M4 systems (before Picatinny rails and KeyMod and M-Lok) all we had were "swivels" that could bend 180 degrees". The modern swivel systems can both "bend" 180 degrees and also "rotate" 360 degrees (multiple times, if need be.).
Yes, many QD connectors do allow rotation, however, many others, including MAG606, do not. It's advertised as follows:
Screenshot 2026-10-18 121300.png
... and can be seen demonstrated on video here: https://youtu.be/mGAtfXORT08?si=52jw2G0bNw0g8gi9&t=80
QuoteAnd when reading the "Assembling a Liberty Training Rifle" document, it included the following picture for the type of swivels we'd need.
This document is aimed primarily at the Ruger 10/22 and other rifles with traditional stocks, be they wood or synthetic facsimiles thereof. On these stocks, drilling a hole and installing that stud is the best way to add a sling swivel if one wasn't already present. Rifles like the AR, by contrast, provide more options as you've seen. All these are doing is attaching the sling to the rifle in a way that can be connected and disconnected without surgery.
QuoteAnd why would I use the USGI cotton sling if I was just planning on removing the J-hook and putting two MAG540's on both ends? In that case, wouldn't I just be better off using a Vickers sling, or another modern "tactical" sling.
Not at all! The J-Hook is merely a way to achieve quick disconnection on a rifle with permanently affixed swivels (like most military service rifles are). It fulfills the same purpose as a MAG540. The USGI cotton sling, when its rear is detached from the rifle, allows you to tether your non-firing-side armpit to the front of the rifle and thus eliminate all muscle tension in that arm; and this can happen equally well regardless of whether the rear was detached via a J-Hook or a MAG540. The Vickers sling, to my knowledge, is a fine way to carry a rifle, but cannot do this at all.
I have the Larry Vickers Blue Force Gear sling. It is a "tactical" two-point sling designed to cross over your shooting shoulder, cross diagonally across your back, and return to the rifle under your support arm. This type of sling has a feature that quickly allows you to extend the sling enough to allow you to transition the rifle from your strong side shoulder to your weak side shoulder. When tensioned (shortened) the sling supports your rifle butt upwards close to your body allowing both your hands to be free to transition to pistol, attend to a wounded person, etc.
This type of sling is not designed to function as a loop sling. When tensioned, it can provide some support in hasty sling fashion. I have heard of people jury-rigging them to sort of work as a loop sling but the photos I have seen make this look awkward and less effective than a proper loop sling.
You just need to attach the two push-button quick release sling swivels to the ends of your USGI web sling. You need to have both attachment points available to use the sling as a hasty sling and you need to detach the back attachment point to use the sling as a loop sling. It really doesn't make any difference if the swivels are freely rotating or not. I would suggest you position your Magpul M-LOK quick release swivel socket in an M-LOK hole that allows you to brace your support hand right up against the sling swivel when you are in the prone position. That will allow you to use it as a hand stop which will fix the forward movement of your support hand in position and allow you to "relax" into the sling.
Quote from: mmirate on October 18, 2026, 01:30:54 PMYes, many QD connectors do allow rotation, however, many others, including MAG606, do not. It's advertised as follows:
Screenshot 2026-10-18 121300.png
... and can be seen demonstrated on video here: https://youtu.be/mGAtfXORT08?si=52jw2G0bNw0g8gi9&t=80
Dang ... I did not know that :wb:
Well, I've already bought & opened the MAG809. I figured I wanted my rifle to be as close as possible to a U.S.G.I. rifle
Will I be dis-advantaged at all, if I use the G.I. front swivel at the 6 o'clock position (like in an original M16/M4) instead of a more modern attachment device & location (like a MAG606 at the 9 o'clock position?)
I still don't know how I'm going to attach the rear though.
Quote from: crater33 on October 18, 2026, 10:51:53 PMI still don't know how I'm going to attach the rear though.
According to that stock's product page (https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-stock-mod-0-black/) it is compatible with MAG540 (or competitor). I don't have one on-hand, but the photo shows a hole on either side which seems about the correct size to accept a MAG540.
Quote from: crater33 on October 18, 2026, 10:51:53 PMWill I be dis-advantaged at all, if I use the G.I. front swivel at the 6 o'clock position (like in an original M16/M4) instead of a more modern attachment device & location (like a MAG606 at the 9 o'clock position?)
No. Appleseed doesn't do anything where 6 o'clock versus 9 o'clock on the front will matter, and you'll learn how to put the sling on and off without needing to detach the front.
I put the MAG809 on all the rifles I have that live with GI slings on them- ARs, 10-22s in Magpul stocks. It's a great heavy-duty option that never goes missing like my QDs seem to.
The push-button QDs work well when you spend money on real ones. Don't cheap out on Amazon, I tried and they wouldn't stay locked in the cups. Any amount of sling tension yanked them right out. Grovetec or Magpul make good options, I'm sure there are others too.
While the recommendation to switch from the J-hook to the QD alone is fine, I've also successfully put the J-hook on a QD sling swivel. I do this so all my slings are the same and can work across any of my rifles.
The MAG 809 will work fine as a front attachment point for your USGI web sling. You have two options. Either you can remove the J hook from the front of the sling and run the sling through the MAG 809 swivel, or you can leave the front J hook on the sling and attach it to the MAG 809 swivel. I would choose the latter if you want to be able to quickly detach the sling from the rifle.
There are two reasons to do so. As has already been said, if you detach the sling you can set up the loop sling on your arm in the equipment area behind the firing line before your prep period. Then you don't have to detach the rear attachment point, form the loop, position it on your arm, and tighten it during your prep time on the line. All you have to do is clip onto the swivel. The other reason is that I, like many, find it preferable to make a half turn to the left (clockwise for a righty) at the front attachment point when using the sling in "hasty" fashion. This allows the sling to rest flat against your hand and wrist without an awkward twist.
You definitely want to be able to quickly detach the sling at the butt stock. You can either replace the rear J-hook with a push button quick release swivel or leave the J-hook on and clip into a quick release swivel left on the butt stock. The butt stock you have has an "ambidextrous" quick release socket so you could attach the rear sling to either side of the stock. For Appleseed, you want to attach to the left side to allow the sling to be easily used as a hasty sling. Many shooters using 2-point tactical slings prefer to attach the rear of the sling to the right side of the stock. This way when you drop the rifle the sling crossing over the right side of the stock holds the butt of the rifle tight against your chest.
As for the orientation of the front sling swivel, this is a matter of preference. I prefer the 6 o'clock position and that certainly won't penalize you in any way. Some prefer a 9 o'clock or even a 3 o'clock position. I find that for myself a lateral attachment point applies a twisting force that wants to cant the rifle which requires some muscular resistance to overcome. But you can experiment.
Quote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMThe other reason is that I, like many, find it preferable to make a half turn to the left (clockwise for a righty) at the front attachment point when using the sling in "hasty" fashion. This allows the sling to rest flat against your hand and wrist without an awkward twist.
What do you mean by "turning" the sling clockwise? Assuming I attach it in the 6 o'clock position, do you mean, as the webbing comes back towards the stock, I should deliberately twist it clockwise once (or half a full twist, 180 degrees)?
I am a right-handed & right-eye-dominant shooter. It sounds like you're a left-handed shooter maybe??
Quote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMYou definitely want to be able to quickly detach the sling at the butt stock. You can either replace the rear J-hook with a push button quick release swivel or leave the J-hook on and clip into a quick release swivel left on the butt stock. The butt stock you have has an "ambidextrous" quick release socket so you could attach the rear sling to either side of the stock. For Appleseed, you want to attach to the left side to allow the sling to be easily used as a hasty sling. Many shooters using 2-point tactical slings prefer to attach the rear of the sling to the right side of the stock. This way when you drop the rifle the sling crossing over the right side of the stock holds the butt of the rifle tight against your chest.
Just making sure, do you mean that for a right-handed & right-eyed shooter, assuming I attach the front of the sling in the 6 o'clock position, I should attach the rear of the sling in the 9 o'clock position?? And "rotate" it as you mentioned above?
Is there a photo or a video of how to do this (for right-handed, right-eyed shooters?) Its all fairly confusing, and unfortunately, the Larry Vickers videos I've been watching seem
very specifically tailored to right-handed & left-eyed shooters like him.
Quote from: crater33 on October 19, 2026, 02:30:01 PMQuote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMThe other reason is that I, like many, find it preferable to make a half turn to the left (clockwise for a righty) at the front attachment point when using the sling in "hasty" fashion. This allows the sling to rest flat against your hand and wrist without an awkward twist.
What do you mean by "turning" the sling clockwise? Assuming I attach it in the 6 o'clock position, do you mean, as the webbing comes back towards the stock, I should deliberately twist it clockwise once (or half a full twist, 180 degrees)?
I am a right-handed & right-eye-dominant shooter. It sounds like you're a left-handed shooter maybe??
Quote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMYou definitely want to be able to quickly detach the sling at the butt stock. You can either replace the rear J-hook with a push button quick release swivel or leave the J-hook on and clip into a quick release swivel left on the butt stock. The butt stock you have has an "ambidextrous" quick release socket so you could attach the rear sling to either side of the stock. For Appleseed, you want to attach to the left side to allow the sling to be easily used as a hasty sling. Many shooters using 2-point tactical slings prefer to attach the rear of the sling to the right side of the stock. This way when you drop the rifle the sling crossing over the right side of the stock holds the butt of the rifle tight against your chest.
Just making sure, do you mean that for a right-handed & right-eyed shooter, assuming I attach the front of the sling in the 6 o'clock position, I should attach the rear of the sling in the 9 o'clock position?? And "rotate" it as you mentioned above?
Is there a photo or a video of how to do this (for right-handed, right-eyed shooters?) Its all fairly confusing, and unfortunately, the Larry Vickers videos I've been watching seem very specifically tailored to right-handed & left-eyed shooters like him.
No, I am a right-handed shooter. What I am talking about is much more easily demonstrated than described in writing. For hasty sling configuration attach the sling to your buttstock. In your case, for Appleseed you want to connect to the 9 o'clock position so the sling doesn't have to cross over or under your buttstock. Then hold the front of the sling out in front of you and give it a half twist (180 degrees) clockwise or left before hooking onto the front swivel. Having this half twist will allow the sling to cross flat over your wrist and hand when you bring your support hand around to the outside of the sling and then back over it before grasping the rifle fore end. Try it and see.
Setting up a tactical sling is completely different than setting up a USGI sling to use as a loop sling and hasty sling. Here is a link to a youtube video that demonstrates set up of a 2-point tactical sling. In this case, it is a Viking Tactical (VTAC) sling, another very popular two-point tactical sling. Notice that the shooter sets up the sling with the rear of the sling attached to the right side (3 o'clock) position and the front-end attachment at 9 o'clock. The front end attachment could also be placed at 6 o'clock and it would work about as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoGh-tZtKKA&t=180s
Quote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 02:58:44 PMNo, I am a right-handed shooter. What I am talking about is much more easily demonstrated than described in writing. For hasty sling configuration attach the sling to your buttstock. In your case, for Appleseed you want to connect to the 9 o'clock position so the sling doesn't have to cross over or under your buttstock. Then hold the front of the sling out in front of you and give it a half twist (180 degrees) clockwise or left before hooking onto the front swivel. Having this half twist will allow the sling to cross flat over your wrist and hand when you bring your support hand around to the outside of the sling and then back over it before grasping the rifle fore end. Try it and see.
Okay, I think I understand. Just two last things:
1. If I attach the rear of the sling via a MAG540 to the 9 o'clock position, the webbing will be in an up-and-down orientation, correct? The thin profile will be in-plane with both the 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock positions, correct?
2. So when I'm bringing the webbing forward, to attach it to the front via the MAG809, I'm going to rotate the webbing ... not a half-twist of 180 degrees ... but actually a
quarter-twist of 90 degrees, correct? Because the MAG809 will be in the 6 o'clock position and naturally want to put the webbing in a side-to-side orientation, with the thin profile in-plane with both the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, correct?
3. But, as a right-handed & right-eyes shooter, will I rotate the webbing 90 degrees clockwise, or will I rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise? You said "hold the front of the sling out in front of you and give it a half twist (180 degrees) clockwise or left before hooking onto the front swivel" but that's contradictory, right? Clockwise = right ... not left. So is it clockwise/right or counterclockwise/left?
And one last thing: Does the sling really, absolutely need to be made of cotton? Or will a 1.25 inch wide, 48 inch long nylon sling like this Grovtech GTSL41 (https://grovtec.com/products/utility-slings?variant=49939066452) be okay?
Do we need the extra friction from the cotton, or something?
The truth is, if I buy a "retro" garand sling, I'm probably only ever going to use it for Appleseed events. I hate buying things and then only using them once. A nylon sling like the Grovtech would be more useful in the long run. And the cotton slings aren't exactly cheap, either (once you factor in shipping)
The entire Appleseed course of instruction is built around using a USGI web sling to stabilize your rifle. It's not just there to carry the rifle around.
And yes, cotton matters. Cotton grips and stays in place under tension, while nylon is much more prone to slipping. That's especially important when you're trying to maintain a consistent shooting position.
You can get a cotton GI web sling on Amazon for about $10 with free shipping. Considering what you're spending to attend an Appleseed, that seems like a pretty small investment to get the most out of the instruction.
I wouldn't overthink this one. Buy the cotton sling. It's probably the cheapest piece of equipment you'll bring, and one of the most important.
Quote from: crater33 on October 19, 2026, 03:57:07 PMQuote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 02:58:44 PMNo, I am a right-handed shooter. What I am talking about is much more easily demonstrated than described in writing. For hasty sling configuration attach the sling to your buttstock. In your case, for Appleseed you want to connect to the 9 o'clock position so the sling doesn't have to cross over or under your buttstock. Then hold the front of the sling out in front of you and give it a half twist (180 degrees) clockwise or left before hooking onto the front swivel. Having this half twist will allow the sling to cross flat over your wrist and hand when you bring your support hand around to the outside of the sling and then back over it before grasping the rifle fore end. Try it and see.
Okay, I think I understand. Just two last things:
1. If I attach the rear of the sling via a MAG540 to the 9 o'clock position, the webbing will be in an up-and-down orientation, correct? The thin profile will be in-plane with both the 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock positions, correct?
2. So when I'm bringing the webbing forward, to attach it to the front via the MAG809, I'm going to rotate the webbing ... not a half-twist of 180 degrees ... but actually a quarter-twist of 90 degrees, correct? Because the MAG809 will be in the 6 o'clock position and naturally want to put the webbing in a side-to-side orientation, with the thin profile in-plane with both the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, correct?
3. But, as a right-handed & right-eyes shooter, will I rotate the webbing 90 degrees clockwise, or will I rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise? You said "hold the front of the sling out in front of you and give it a half twist (180 degrees) clockwise or left before hooking onto the front swivel" but that's contradictory, right? Clockwise = right ... not left. So is it clockwise/right or counterclockwise/left?
And one last thing: Does the sling really, absolutely need to be made of cotton? Or will a 1.25 inch wide, 48 inch long nylon sling like this Grovtech GTSL41 (https://grovtec.com/products/utility-slings?variant=49939066452) be okay?
Do we need the extra friction from the cotton, or something?
The truth is, if I buy a "retro" garand sling, I'm probably only ever going to use it for Appleseed events. I hate buying things and then only using them once. A nylon sling like the Grovtech would be more useful in the long run. And the cotton slings aren't exactly cheap, either (once you factor in shipping)
Yes, you are correct. Since your rear attachment will be at the 9 o'clock position you would only twist the front of the sling 90 degrees clockwise as opposed to the 180 degree half twist that would be the case if the rear attachment was at 6 o'clock. The twist is not necessary. It just tends to allow the sling to cross your hand and wrist flatter with less tendency to have a twist. Try it both ways. If the twist doesn't bother you, forget about it.
As for the synthetic sling you mentioned, that would not be good for Appleseed. It lacks the cam lock slider of the USGI sling that allows rapid length adjustments. I have used synthetic slings for Appleseed such as the Magpul rifleman's loop sling (RLS sling) and have found that they grip on the arm just fine. But with the slicker and often somewhat less thick synthetic USGI type slings, the cam lock slider will sometimes not grip the material well enough and allow some slippage.
Quote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMYou definitely want to be able to quickly detach the sling at the butt stock. You can either replace the rear J-hook with a push button quick release swivel or leave the J-hook on and clip into a quick release swivel left on the butt stock. The butt stock you have has an "ambidextrous" quick release socket so you could attach the rear sling to either side of the stock.
Shucks, I'm just learning that the QD cups on the BCM Mod 0 stock that my rifle came with don't have the anti-twist feature that @mmirate was talking about.
Apparently the BCM Mod 2 stock does include anti-twist QD cups, but the Mod 0 doesn't :(
Will this be a pain in the ass to shoot with? Or is is only important that front sling attachment is anti-twist? If I understand correctly, in the "hasty" position, the sling will only be attached at the front of the rifle so it won't matter.
But what about in the "non-hasty" position?
I've used paracord without issue. 🤷
If that makes you nervous try this...
https://www.amazon.com/clp/B01FPK2UR0
Quote from: crater33 on October 21, 2026, 11:05:49 PMQuote from: pblanc on October 19, 2026, 01:31:14 PMYou definitely want to be able to quickly detach the sling at the butt stock. You can either replace the rear J-hook with a push button quick release swivel or leave the J-hook on and clip into a quick release swivel left on the butt stock. The butt stock you have has an "ambidextrous" quick release socket so you could attach the rear sling to either side of the stock.
Shucks, I'm just learning that the QD cups on the BCM Mod 0 stock that my rifle came with don't have the anti-twist feature that @mmirate was talking about.
Apparently the BCM Mod 2 stock does include anti-twist QD cups, but the Mod 0 doesn't :(
Will this be a pain in the ass to shoot with? Or is is only important that front sling attachment is anti-twist? If I understand correctly, in the "hasty" position, the sling will only be attached at the front of the rifle so it won't matter.
But what about in the "non-hasty" position?
It won't matter at all if your quick release sockets are anti-twist or not for Appleseed. The no twist sockets are sometimes useful for tactical slings where you are doing a lot of movement, releasing and remounting the weapon, transitioning from strong shoulder to weak shoulder, etc. With a lot of movement the sling can become twisted around itself in an annoying way. In my experience, that is more likely to occur at the front sling swivel.
For Appleseed to form a loop sling you will detach the sling from the butt stock anyway. If your sling somehow gets twisted at the front attachment point, you will have plenty of time to straighten it out during your prep time. With the hasty sling the sling remains attached at both ends and is unlikely to get twisted anyway, but if it somehow should you will once again have plenty of time to straighten it out.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "non-hasty" configuration. There is something frequently demonstrated at Appleseed called the "hasty-hasty". This is where the sling remains attached at both ends and you simply pass your support arm elbow through the sling loop from strong side to weak side, without releasing your support hand from the fore-end and passing it under, around, and back over the sling. It is marginally faster than the hasty sling but provides less support. I haven't seen anyone actually use that at an Appleseed event and can't imagine why you would want to. Its usefulness would be if you had to make a snapshot hunting, etc.