This is a great resource. Covers most everything including 1907 sling usage, NPOA, sighting rifle, etc.
http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1
Wow. What a terrific video. I'm watching this thing and I can't shake the feeling that they really were the greatest generation. There's a simplicity and efficiency to the instruction...it almost becomes a thing of beauty.
Here's a question. The second video makes use of a pocket sized "score book" that contains windage charts, score sheets, etc... does anyone know of a source for these books or, at least, reproductions?
After searching the forum, I found that someone here rediscovers it from time to time. It needs to be stickied or linked to somehow and made mandatory viewing for all IIT's and wannabes. Just my opinion.
I have downloaded them. It amazes me how education in the military has changed, not necessarily for the better. When I went through bootcamp, marksmanship was not even remotely instructed in the same manner. Had the instruction been as in the videos I may have done better.
My daughter was totally engrossed in the first video and was TAKING NOTES so she can STUDY for her first AS. O0
I agree that EVERY SINGLE IIT should download the videos, STUDY them and add them to the REFERENCE LIBRARY that they should be building.
Quote from: Brother Mark on May 15, 2009, 01:23:51 AM
Here's a question. The second video makes use of a pocket sized "score book" that contains windage charts, score sheets, etc... does anyone know of a source for these books or, at least, reproductions?
Highpower shooters still use these books; they're available from competitiion shooting supply dealers (Creedmoor, Champion Shooters Supply, etc). The GI "score books" mentioned in the training films were set up for Garands using 30-06. In the 70's and 80's score books were based on the 308/7/62x51 (30 caliber was required for highpower at that time). I haven't looked at one lately. I'm sure they're available for 5.56x45 62 grain. They're a bit larger than pocket size. In theory, you record your sight settings, corrections, target info (bullet strike), and weather (light, mirage, wind) and build up a database of what and how you did on various days. In practice, you can spend a lot of time doing paperwork when you ought to be 'keeping your head out of the cockpit' and if your ammo changes (different loading components) or you put on a new barrel, a lot of the detailed data becomes obsolete. I retrospect, a lot of my 'wind-related' corrections were due more to poor position and lack of understanding of NPOA. I do recommend writing your windage and elevation zeros down somewhere (a small notebook is fine), and determine your 'come-ups for each distance, then keep the data where you can find it (one reason highpower shooters have shooting-stools).
Quote from: ashrn03 on May 15, 2009, 12:24:15 PM
In practice, you can spend a lot of time doing paperwork when you ought to be 'keeping your head out of the cockpit' and if your ammo changes (different loading components) or you put on a new barrel, a lot of the detailed data becomes obsolete...I do recommend writing your windage and elevation zeros down somewhere (a small notebook is fine), and determine your 'come-ups for each distance, then keep the data where you can find it (one reason highpower shooters have shooting-stools).
So, the recommendation is to keep track of the critical settings. Other than that...spend my time shooting, not writing. That's good advice. Thank you.
Remember that Highpower is a competition, and that alone requires info and records, especially about conditions on certain ranges. They don't vary their loads much, if the yreload, and if they buy commercial, it's still pretty much the same ammo every time.
Remember we're into "Field Shooting", and there's much data required.
The recommendation on recprding come-ups and wind data is good.
Also, it doesn't hurt to track each rifle you have, so you know when one is starting to show problems. (THis assumes you shoot them a LOT.)
I'm sure this has been covered before, but why do we hike up our leg vs the video having both legs straight?
Actually, I know we hike our leg up to get our lungs/diaphragm off the ground, but why didn't they?
J
They didn't know that then.
They didn't teach it when I went to Boot Camp (the Army kind, not the RWVA kind) in 1972, either.
The bent knee is really a highpower/smallbore thing.
Putting the lower leg parralel to the bore assist in recoil absorbtion.
I was told it was also to keep you as low as possible. Military prone gives you a lower profile, hence a smaller target. Just like that support leg heel. If you point your toe into the ground and have your heel up.....the heel could get shot.
Logically, it makes sense. Just what I was told. Go from there.
EEL
Quote from: EEL on May 15, 2009, 03:14:54 PM
I was told it was also to keep you as low as possible. Military prone gives you a lower profile, hence a smaller target. Just like that support leg heel. If you point your toe into the ground and have your heel up.....the heel could get shot.
Logically, it makes sense. Just what I was told. Go from there.
EEL
Per what Nickle said: they didn't know about it then. When I first started shooting competitiion the trigger-leg-up position was referred to as "the Estonian postion" or occasionally "the Roumanian position". It lifts your diaphram off the ground and, for me at least, reduces a major abdominal arterial pulse that literally bounces me up and down. They're actually teaching basic marksmanship in the training films, just like we do.
Keeping your profile as low as possible is a tactical thing. I believe this is what they teach during the second week of Marine rifle instruction (the first week is supposed to be very similar to what we teach at Appleseed, except we don't yell at people ::)). The second week begins with something like "Remember all that 'stuff' they taught you last week, well, you try doing that in combat and you're going to get your (whatever) shot off." The second week, prone is flat, and the body is in line with the rifle to reduce silhouette; no "chicken wing" in standing or kneeling; sitting isn't emphasized, kneeling, using all available support, and cover are. Good stuff to know in a fight but all of it costs you in terms of marksmanship and it's not what we teach. We're into the basics.
I'm wondering after watching this video if human arms have gotten shorter since then. In this videa the soldiers have their hands all the way to the front sling attachment. I can't get anywhere close to it. As a matter of fact, I plan on installing some sling studs farter down the stock on my Garands and M1A's so I can shoot the things. Every time I fire, it jumps in my support hand and I have to re-position my self. It plays havoc with my accuracy. Don't have this problem with .22 and AR's since there is not enough recoil to worry about.
Quote from: DwayneH on May 15, 2009, 05:51:41 PM
I'm wondering after watching this video if human arms have gotten shorter since then. In this videa the soldiers have their hands all the way to the front sling attachment. I can't get anywhere close to it...
I think that the answer has to do with the angle between the shooter's shoulders and the Rifle. Go back and look at the video and check it out. Closing up that angle gives you a lot more arm to reach the sling attachment. Even prone they're keeping that angle relatively tight.
Quote from: DwayneH on May 15, 2009, 10:15:44 AM
After searching the forum, I found that someone here rediscovers it from time to time. It needs to be stickied or linked to somehow and made mandatory viewing for all IIT's and wannabes. Just my opinion.
I'll throw it up on YouTube
I picked up both of those videos over ten years ago. Haven't watched them recently though, guess I'll have to plug them in again.
Another one I got at the same time was 'Effects of Infantry Weapons'. If you want to know what a .30 round (not to mention a wide assortment of other WWII weapons) will do to helmets and hard cover it's quite interesting.
Glad you mentioned that. I have been trying to find that video ever since I saw a piece of it and couldn't remember the name. You'll never want to shoot an AR again. "M1. Turning cover into concealment since the 1940's"
Back in my early spray and pray days, I tried an AR on large trees, concrete walls, washing machines, old cars and came to the conclusion that it was very lacking in the penetration department. Even with SS109s.
Yeah, that's a great video we had it up on the board years ago. The part where they go on and on and on and on about windage is quite grueling though.
DwayneH, upon closer inspection the video is titled "Infantry Weapons and Their Effects". My copy says "Distributed by Mail Order Video 7888Ostrwo Street Suite A San Diego CA 92111 619-569-400 1-800-942-8273
This is old info but may help track it down.
Here is a link to the infantry weapons video http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/401.cfm
(It is in 2 parts--1167a and 1167b)