I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking. :~
The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <:)
After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR. ??? I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.
I didn't understand the delta. The 10/22 groups were pretty consistent; the AR/Ceiner "groups" were slightly broader - which I expect, but mixed in were several flyers, mostly slightly up and left or right - I didn't call these.
I figured I was just rusty with the AR (I've been conserving my .223) so I put up some 1" squares for practice. It was the same thing - groups with occasional flyers. It's almost like shooting with loose sites, but everything is rock, I triple checked.
Frustrated, I did a very un-rifleman thing - I used my range bag as a support and shot off the bench (no sling.) Still the same characteristics - a couple of accurate shots and a couple of flyers.
I went home confused, and cleaned the AR and the Ceiner.
Today, I again packed the ceiner and the AR, packed up some .223 so I could test with that as well, and returned to the range. I repeated the 1" square experiment - with the same resulting flyers. I figured I'd shot the .223 and if that went well convict the ceiner, but unfortunately some fool ++) forgot to pack mags. (clown bat deserved here. &))
I probably won't get to the range until Sunday - with mags and .223, but I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?
I have a Ceiner conversion on a Kreiger barreled upper and it shoots just as well as a totally unmodified 10-22 with Wolf match ammo
However consider the following:
1. with the Ceiner you use the .223 Rem barrel of the center fire cartridge which is actualy 0.224 whereas the .22 LR uses a 0.223 barrel.
2. some rifles like one type of ammo and others like a diferent one sometimes. if you have found the sweet one for your 10-22 but your conversion "doesn't like it"; the doesn't like it is usually manifested in throwing flyers. don't give up on the ceiner yet. clean the barrel down to bare steel (reeaally clean) then only shoot lead bullets that can obturate easily to the slightly larger barrel. remember it offer takes a clean .22 RF barrel 50 rounds to "settle down", so use only the conversion and no .223 Rem as you do the checking the type of ammo test.
3. then again, rifles vary and that's the frustrating answer sometimes.
I hope this helps you in your trouble shooting (yeh I intended that)
hope to meet you on the trail
TAZ
Twist rate, perhaps? Taz, I assume your dedicated upper has the proper twist for rimfire whereas the .223 barrel may not. Just a thought.
No mags, huh? I've never done that......... ::)
Twist rate is a key factor here, and a major reason why I won't do the Ciener conversion, short of a dedicated upper to use with it.
If you build a dedicated upper for the conversion, use an M16A1 (or Colt AR SP1) barrel, with the much slower twist. Sarco should have some used barels.
There's a reason why the Army quit using the conversions, and it's because of the difference in the twist. You think they throw a few flyers with a 1-9 twist, try a 1-7, and watch the groups grow.
Try some different ammo before you give up on it.
My CAR15 (1 turn in 9") with the .22 conversion kit shoots dime sized 10 shot groups at 25 meters when I do my part.
That's all good info; it's a 1:8 colt upper, an A2. At least I know the potential is there.
This weekend I'll bring Blazer (I was using Federal bulk) so that will switch me to lead bullet. Maybe I'll pick-up some stinger as well.
Generally with any rifle I snake the barrel before I shoot, if for no other reason I'm sure there's nothing in it, and may run a patch if it's been oiled. Then I snake a couple of times when I pack-up. As this is an AR, and crap's where it eats, it gets a lot of cleaning.
I hope I can get this figured out - I want to use this so I can loan out my 10/22 and drag a rifleless friend to an AS.
Twist rate is gonna be a good part of the issue. Ammo choice too, is probably part. I think the non-dedicated upper conversions (Colt, Ceiner, Spikes, CMMG etc) are best used for MEUSOC type drills and CBQ practice, not for Rifleman practice. YMMV.
I want to follow-up.
I got to the range with the AR, Ceiner, and CCI Blazer.
It was cold and breezy, and I was underdressed (I was expecting 70F, not 45F) but I've been dying to try the lead bullet, so I dawned a sling-unfriendly denim car coat and unrolled my mat.
From the sighting shots I noticed an improvement in the grouping. No flyers in 350 rds!
The ammo made all the difference in the world! :)
Quote from: vic303 on May 13, 2009, 11:16:53 AM
Twist rate is gonna be a good part of the issue. Ammo choice too, is probably part. I think the non-dedicated upper conversions (Colt, Ceiner, Spikes, CMMG etc) are best used for MEUSOC type drills and CBQ practice, not for Rifleman practice. YMMV.
Using the blazer with a scope the 3 shot groups on stage 4 targets were dime sized or less; I don't feel an dedicated upper will be needed.
The square 0.070 front sight is a bit wide for my tastes, so I didn't group near as well with the irons; changing that front post out is something I will do - maybe 0.050 and round.
glad it all worked out well!
hope to see you on the trail
good shooting
TAZ
Quote from: gunville on May 13, 2009, 12:37:52 AM
I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking. :~
The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <:)
After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR. ??? I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.
I didn't understand the delta...
... I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?
It's called .223 Remington for a reason. 22lr bores are .221 (nominal.) Research the "Paco Kelly tool" and bumping up 22lr to better fit the larger bore of your AR. There's a reason the m231? conversion kit was only for practice, not match work... ;)
Quite a few folks have earned their rifleman patches with a .22 conversion kit in an AR15.
Don't get hung up over bore size. Try some different bullets. Different brands, different velocities.
Even 10/22's (and other .22 rifles) have their favorite, as well as less favorite, brands/types of ammo.
I have .22's that shoot Rem. Thunderbolts so well I'd be wasting my money to shoot anything else. I have others that prefer Rem. Golden Bullets over everything else I've tried.
glad to see the review on the Ceiner...been thinking of getting one, but the GIANT twist-rate difference between 1:9 (.223 55gr @ 3000fps) 1:7 (.223 70+gr @2700fps) and 1:16 (.22LR/40gr @ 1150fps) has been a discouragement.
I guess, in 25m the bullet's trajectory shouldn't deteriorate too awful much, but, a dedicated upper w/a proper twist would probably be NEEDED for squirrels, rabbits or K.D.
I'm not following the need for a dedicated upper. If a dangerous cook gets dime size groups at 25m with a 1:9, I'm thinking the squirrels are not safe - at least at that range.
My thinking of the ceiner was it gave me low-cost rifle time with AR15 - I could have bought another LTR for the price. Add the price of a dedicated upper and you could have bought a tricked out 10/22 or a TC.
I'm guessing the all-lead bullets get a grip on the barrel, while the plated Federals were not.
I haven't yet put a target at 100yd (other than a tin can) with the ceiner but it's worth the evaluation, time permitting. With luck it's just a 5.5" drop from 25m (if I recall 22lr ballistics.)
The powder charge for 22lr is substantially lower and the velocity slower than .223rem, so I don't think the bullets are going to tear themselves apart - they would have done that by 25yd when they had all their energy. So with 1:9 they are clearly over stabalized; that may reduce their energy, but you don't much energy for a squirrel.
got a point there.....hmmmm.....
here is a trick I picked up
take your 1/12 suplus upper remove the gas tube
, cut it down to 4 " or so rotate it 180 degrees in the gas block and pin it back in.
it seals most if not all of the gas getting back to the action
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/finished.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/markandremove.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/cuttube.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/rotatetube180.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/instaltube.jpg)
mine still went down during the first red coat shoot,,,,,,, but I forgot to clean it....so I changed rifles
So, I gather that a Ciener or similar kit is recoil/blowback activated, rather than gas-operated?
I bet somebody who's really, really clever and skilled @ small-diameter pipewelding could fit a little ball valve on an AR's gas tube...closed for .22's and open again for 5.56.
hmmmmmm...... <:)
yes, the standard 5.56 bolt is replaced with the Ceiner bolt.
This bolt has a .22lr chamber that fits into the 5.56 chamber (I'm not sure if it's 5.56 or .223 Rem sized), and it's own spring loaded bolt riding on a shaft.
When fired the AR recoil spring doesn't even seem to compress, just the spring on the ciener.
No gas tube modification is required - I guess it would help keeping it clean.
It's an AR15, clean it anyway.
If you're really into AR15's then it's probably a must-have.... otherwise I would say spend the money on an LTR.
I had it out again today. I noticed even with the CCI blazer it takes a 20-30 rounds for the groups to tighten up, and they are still not as tight as the 10/22. (Of course I shouldn't have that expectation either.)
at least one of the comments upstream compared the .22LR's dirtiness FAVORABLY with the blank-adapter'd results
been there, done that......the cleaning's not to be feared
I had AR/Ceiner to the range for a short time yesterday - this is a text-book case of a gun liking one ammo over the other. I've never had an ammo choice effect a rifle as much as switching from Federal to Blazer did.
I lubed the ceiner with a graphite spray I picked up at Home depot for use on my 10/22. I had been using CLP in AR fashion, but liked how well this worked on the 10/22 - really smooths the action, so I gave it a try on the ceiner, lubricating the tracks the .22lr bolt rides on. in a limited sample (maybe 200 rds, I had other things to do at the range) it seems to feed better and smoother with the graphite, but time will tell.
WRT the dirtiness of the Ceiner and the 22lr, it forms a grey ash on the top part of the bolt, on the bolt return spring and guide shaft, and the parts along them. It leaves the parkerization on those parts looking un-oiled, if you know what I mean. But it's pretty easy to clean up. The bolt face and chamber adapter have more typical 22 grim that I tackle with hoppes. The barrel is - well "22LR" dirty.
I have also found a difference between chrome and non-chrome lined bores in a 1 in 9 twist. non-chrome was a 2.5 MOA shooter, the chrome one was 5-6MOA, using the same ammo.
unfortunately, rifle accuracy, esp with .22 RF, is as much an art as a science.
1. the poor shooting barrel may just be a por shooting barrel
however
2. not all barrels / chambers "like" the same ammo
3. some barrels only like expensive ammo and therefore remain "poor shooters" because expensive stuff is never tried.
4. could be poorly applied chrome, but I would not assume that all chrome barrels have poor accuracy.
experimentation is part of the fun of shooting for accuracy as oppossed to just plinking.
good shooting
TAZ
ordered a Ceiner from MidwayUSA for my AR...... $139, including a 10-rd mag...added 2 "black dog" mags to the order...shipping and a small piece of "NRA roundup" put me at $210, and it's already shipped, should arrive by 6/15
I'm kind of elated, right now, like this guy--> :D
hope I don't end up looking like these guys--> :-[ !@#) >:(
I've got 4 "candidate" uppers to choose from...
a vintage pre-forward-assist (non- "A1") Colt....probably has the long twistrate
a more modern "a1" style
an M-4gery carbine
and, the least likely one, a bullbarreled, freefloated, bipodded 9lb beast with a GIANT scope on it....I'll just keep that one the way it is
Sounds like a good price to me
I guess you'll have to try all the uppers!
I recommend the blazer, but with 4 uppers YMMV.
I think Blazer's the ONLY .22LR ammo that I don't have a sample of. I don't know why. ++)
-----added on edit-----ALREADY HERE!!!....ordered Monday night...messed up credit card (me, not them)...revised Tuesday night, rec'd/processed Wednesday, shipped Wednesday, arrived today (Friday)....
I like Midway. O0 I think I need to get some oil, some ammo and head off to the range.....tomorrow, when I've got more time.
Quote from: cbrant_2000 on June 07, 2009, 03:10:58 PM
I have also found a difference between chrome and non-chrome lined bores in a 1 in 9 twist. non-chrome was a 2.5 MOA shooter, the chrome one was 5-6MOA, using the same ammo.
same kind of thing today with me....My Ceiner goodies arrived yesterday, and, possibly for the first time in my gun-owning history, I actually got a chance to play with it INSIDE OF 24 HOURS :~ :))
had 3 guns to try it in, and 3 flavors of .22LR
had an old-vintage, pre-forward-assist Colt upper..20" presumably 1:12, and marked "C MP" and, under the handguards another faint stampstrike that says either "C" or "G"....any AR guru that can translate that for me, come on in. I like to know stuff a LOT more than just suspecting stuff.
Other two were both chromed DPMS barrels w/1:9 rates, one @ 20" and one @ 16"....
NONE shot beautifully.
as it turns out, all 3 ammos were "high-speed" stuff
Federal bulk-pak 36gr copper plated HP claiming 1260fps mv...these fed well, but, didn't group real sweet....maybe 5-6MOA, but with subgroups that looked good...kind of like poorly distributed pepperoni on a pizza.
Remington bulk-pak 36gr round-nose HP 1280fps...didn't feed as well, groups about the same non-sweetness as the Federal
Winchester Super X plated HP 37gr @ 1330fps...fed well and groups might have actually been as tight as 4MOA (just barely), but, only from the 1:9 barrels. The unknown-twist Colt didn't group that well.
Both son and I had similar results, FEED=FIRE, FIRE=EXTRACT/EJECT.....Remington = feed failure 30-50% of the time.....save it for the bolt-actions, I guess......SAFETY NOTE: SINCE THE CEINER DOES NOT ACCOMMODATE "FORWARD ASSIST", A FAIL-TO-FEED (remember, leads to fail-to-fire) MAY ALSO RESULT IN A FAIL-TO-EXTRACT OF A LIVE ROUND, DUE TO THE CLAW NOT GRABBING THE CARTRIDGE-RIM....inspect accordingly
The very best combo today looked like Becky's pink M4gery (16") and the SuperX stuff.
As it turns out, I also had a "control" rifle. My AirForce (not USAF, the name of the company) super-duper .22cal air-rifle needed to be "zeroed". TACKDRIVER! :o I've got a cheapo BSA red-dot on it, and, since it's intended to be my yard-possum gun, I zeroed it for about 10m. @ that distance it was shooting 3-thru-2's and cloverleaves, even into a 1/4"x1/2" rectangle, even though it's a bolt-action non-repeater, which necessitates a cheek-break and pill-fumble for each shot.
So, back to the primary deal....Next time I'm able to make it to an AS, I might be sporting a Ceinerized Barbie gun, stoked w/Winchester SuperX %)
Geddy's uncle, are you using black dog or cmmg plastic mags? If so check the right side feed lip top to see if the ceiner bolt is dragging the top of the lip. That will result in slowing the bolt down enough to not completely chamber rounds. I scraped a little plastic off at a time while trying the mags in between scrapings till they were chambering with no problems.
As for the lack of forward assist - try just pushing the bolt forward with your trigger hand thumb. That worked on mine till I got the bolt, feed lip dragging thing figured out.
I also degrease/lube mine and lap the bolt rails together with lapping compound to remove the parkerizing and start smoothing the bearing surfaces, then spray the lapping compound off and relube the bolt and rails. Sort of like breaking them in quicker. Do it with lapping compound at the house vs. with a few rounds worth of crud mixed with the lube.
I also smoothed up the forward side of the extractor with some fine sandpaper in the hopes that if it was smoother it might be easier for it to slide/pop over the rim of the case.
Not that all of the above is necessary, but the combination of the three seemed to help my kits work better.
Oh, yeah, to determine the twist of the barrel on your older upper -
1) insert a cleaning rod from the flash suppressor down past the chamber
2) put a patch in the tip
3) pull it back towards the muzzle till you feel the patch/tip start to contact the rifling in the barrel (you know, where it gets good and tight)
4) mark the cleaning rod with a sharpie at the flash suppressor (small mark is sufficient) say at the top of the barrel
5) pull the rod out slowly till you see the mark come back around again to the same spot and mark the rod again at the flash suppressor
6) use a tape measure and measure the distance between the marks.
12" between marks means the rod turned one complete rotation in 12"
9" between the marks means the rod turned one complete rotation in 9"
etc., etc.
Once I lapped the bolt/rails of the kit and scraped that right side magazine lip down till it didn't rub anymore mine was functioning even when we'd sometimes hear a "weak" sounding round go off. Some of the .22 rounds barely popped vs. most that cracked pretty good. Even the poppers resulted in complete ejection and chambering of the next round.
Hope yours is similarly successful.
NEATO!!!!
The Ceiner mag was, if I recall correctly, flawless (and I could be remembering badly, too). I got two of those big "Black Dog" mags that have the same outer dimensions as a "normal" 30rd...I think they could be crammed full of, like, 25rds.
What's the best trim-away for that feed lip? sandpaper?
tried the manual-push method for forward-assisting...couldn't get it to move that way :(
Where do I get lapping compound? Does it come in different grit sizes? If so, any preference for this use? I'm not a precision shooter, nor am I a barrelsmith, so, I don't expect no need any more later. For this purpose, I've got, potentially, about 94million tons a mile-n-a-half from my house (beach sand), that would be effective, if not necessarily optimum....but, I think I shouldn't do it that way $$-0
I got it from Midway. When I ordered this was all they had so it's what I used.
http://midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=560557
I used carb cleaner to remove the lube first and then to remove the lapping compound when I was done.
I used a pocket knife to scrape that lip down. A couple of shallow passes (scraping, not cutting) and then try the mag to see how it did. Sandpaper would work. I'd lay the paper down on a hard flat surface and try to slowly drag the mag lip across it while keeping the mag level as possible - if I was using sandpaper.
If it's rubbing you should be able to see evidence of it on the bottom right side of the bolt. That side is not "cut" as deeply as the left side for some reason and on mine it rubbed. Seems like I put something on here one time about that.
Yeah, the metal ceiner mag worked great on mine, too. It was the black dog mags that had problems.
I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc. Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.
didn't think to look for plasti-rubs before I cleaned up.....I could still do it in the living room, just with an empty magazine affixed, and working the bolt via the charging handle.... I pre-lubed the livin' daylites outta it last evening with some Tetra grease on the rails....should have done it dry, I guess.
I was about ready to give up on the Ceiner until I tried the blazer.
I could be guessing and dreaming but it seemed to me the plated ones push once when the leave the ceiner and once the barrel. The soft bullets seem to go through easier.
I know that sounds wacky %) but having tried rem golden bullet and winchester valuepack (both which shoot terrific in my 10/22) the blazers actually "feel" different.
I also cleaned the rails a bit and lubed with graphite.
my buddy's CMMG conversion loves Blazer too, as well as Aguilla. It shoots good too... he made rifleman on the first day of his first appleseed with that conversion in his DPMS 16" shooting Blazer, with a really cheapo .22 lr scope. If I had a .223 AR, I'd definitely buy one of those conversions.
Quote from: Old Dog on June 13, 2009, 09:34:52 PM
I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc. Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.
Here is your old diagram/description: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5509.0
I'm going to try what you did and see if it fixes my problems. I've got a Model 1 dedicated upper, and it uses a bolt that is similar to the Ceiner. I'm also using the black dog magazines. I just haven't been able to get the thing to function right. Occasionally I'm able to fire off strings of 2-3 shots without a jam, but most of the time it jams after every shot. Basically it fires, ejects, and then tries to load the next round, but the bolt doesn't go all the way back into battery.
Quote from: ksuguy on June 17, 2009, 03:05:15 AM
Quote from: Old Dog on June 13, 2009, 09:34:52 PM
I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc. Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.
Here is your old diagram/description: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5509.0
I'm going to try what you did and see if it fixes my problems. I've got a Model 1 dedicated upper, and it uses a bolt that is similar to the Ceiner. I'm also using the black dog magazines. I just haven't been able to get the thing to function right. Occasionally I'm able to fire off strings of 2-3 shots without a jam, but most of the time it jams after every shot. Basically it fires, ejects, and then tries to load the next round, but the bolt doesn't go all the way back into battery.
sounds exactly like mag-drag on the bottom of the bolt, as described a few posts up....did I just invent a new LTR vocabulary word? mag-drag?
I hope that's it. This thing has been driving me nuts for months. I was wanting to take it to the Appleseed back in April, but I couldn't get it functioning. Had to go out and buy a 10/22 to bring instead.
HAD to go out and buy a 10/22??????? Like that's a bad thing ???? #) **) **)
There are worse things than buying another gun I guess. :)
If you think you may have twist issues, try a box of SSS and see if that won't settle it down.
Personally Id find a ratty barrel and line it with a proper 1-16 if I was going to use a LR upper.
Quote from: SamD on June 19, 2009, 01:43:54 AM
If you think you may have twist issues, try a box of SSS and see if that won't settle it down.
Personally Id find a ratty barrel and line it with a proper 1-16 if I was going to use a LR upper.
can ya DO that? how? get nasty barrel, have it over-bored, and then a rifled liner installed? Would that be more economical than aoff the shelf/off the internet dedicated 22LR upper?
http://www.gunnyssurplus.com/m16a1-up.html
These are M16A1 upper (like the basic Tech Sights) with no bolt or charging handle and a 1 in 12" twist. Not sure how they compare in price to a dedicated upper.
Well tried working on the magazines, but still no luck. I did notice that there were some noticeable brass marks all along the raised center part of the bolt. So basically it looks like the front is pushing the round out, and then the rest of it is dragging along the top of the next round in the mag. Is this normal?
I'm thinking maybe I should just take a loss and sell this thing. It's just been a hassle ever since I bought it.
Not normal.
The M1S bolt looks the same as the ceiner, except it doesn't have the 22lr-to-223 chamber adapter - since the upper is already chambered .22lr that would make sense.
Have you tried it on a different lower?
The things I can think of that would interfere with the travel would be the BHO (trying a different lower would eliminate this) or perhaps the charging handle is bent or something? On the bolt carrier itself, check if the rails are crunched in, or maybe not on the center axis. (On the ceiner these rails just sort of snap in - they are not substantially supported.)
If it is the mag interface, try some tape on the top of a "ar" part of the mag to lower where it exposes the feed lips.
If it extracts (something my ceiner never does reliably) how well does it run if you shuck rounds through it manually?
Yes, I've tried two different lowers, multiple charging handles, lots of different magazines, installing the low powered fire control springs they provided, several different brands of ammo (including the ones they said they test fired it with). Nothing seems to work.
If I can't get it functioning soon, I think I might just see if somebody else wants it and then spend the money on another CMP garand or some ammo.
Quote from: Old Dog on June 19, 2009, 08:58:10 PM
http://www.gunnyssurplus.com/m16a1-up.html
These are M16A1 upper (like the basic Tech Sights) with no bolt or charging handle and a 1 in 12" twist. Not sure how they compare in price to a dedicated upper.
considerably less than the ones I'm seeing in one of Shotgun News's advertizers....they've got some variety, ranging from $490-$630 depending on setup details...they do come w/ MIS bolt carrier assemblies and charging handles....I think that if somebody's not already got a Ciener, and not already got an old-twist-rate upper, that'd be the simplest way for him, but, in my present situation, the link you posted would be the way to go....but, I've already got RJ's vintage upper, and, oddly enough, the carbine-length 1:9 seemed the best of the 3....even if it is pink. ++)
Quote from: gunville on May 13, 2009, 12:37:52 AM
I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking. :~
The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <:)
After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR. ??? I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.
I didn't understand the delta. The 10/22 groups were pretty consistent; the AR/Ceiner "groups" were slightly broader - which I expect, but mixed in were several flyers, mostly slightly up and left or right - I didn't call these.
I figured I was just rusty with the AR (I've been conserving my .223) so I put up some 1" squares for practice. It was the same thing - groups with occasional flyers. It's almost like shooting with loose sites, but everything is rock, I triple checked.
Frustrated, I did a very un-rifleman thing - I used my range bag as a support and shot off the bench (no sling.) Still the same characteristics - a couple of accurate shots and a couple of flyers.
I went home confused, and cleaned the AR and the Ceiner.
Today, I again packed the ceiner and the AR, packed up some .223 so I could test with that as well, and returned to the range. I repeated the 1" square experiment - with the same resulting flyers. I figured I'd shot the .223 and if that went well convict the ceiner, but unfortunately some fool ++) forgot to pack mags. (clown bat deserved here. &))
I probably won't get to the range until Sunday - with mags and .223, but I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?
The Ciener Kits are utilizing the same rifling as the .223, whereas the 10/22 was designed for the .22LR cartridge. The .22Lr likes a twist rate of about 1X14- 1X16 (If my memory is correct.) The .223 barrel is SLIGHTLY larger ( a couple of thousandths at the most), but the real issue is the rate of twist. I would guess that you have a 1X9, so you have about half of the twist that you need.
Having said all that, I think that you should just shoot it A LOT MORE. Break it in really well, and then see how it does. I have seen folks shoot EXCELLENT Rifleman scores with a Ceiner kit, so I think that while the kit does have its own problems, that you just need to break it in before casting judgement.
Rifleman_NH,
Thanks for the input. The problem I had was the ammo - it liked the lead bullet of Blazer over the plated Rem GB's and winchester valuepack.
With the blazer it shoots groups more than tight enough for AQT's.
I only have one 10rd mag - so right now I don't shoot AQT's with it. I was shooting AQT's with 8rds loaded, then manually reloading 2rd on the clock, but RF AQT's are straight out. (NYS mag restricition means only 10rd, and I can't justify $30 each for them right now.)
Glad that you figured it out....
They can be a real hassle that way.........
Have you tried any Federal Bulk Pack? Most guns eat that stuff...
thinkin' backwards on the twist rate, there NH....
a guy shooting .22LR (optimum about 1:16) thru a 1:9 barrel has TWICE the rate, not HALF the rate....it took a fun early-M-16 history article for me to finally learn/figure out what "overstabilized" means...it meant that the bullet was more yaw-resistant on impact, and that the "stopping power" was affected...
long as they'll fly nice for 82feet that's all we need for A-S shoots
On my ceiner I didn't have much luck with anything copper clad, including the federal bulk pack - which is actually what I meant in my last post, though I said Winchester - never tried winchester.
The 10/22 loves the federal though (loves the rem golden bullet and the blazer as well. All my unscientifc experiments to figure if one is better than the other have been inconclusive, except (1) more duds in Rem, (2) an occasional stove pipe federal. but I digress - nothing like hijacking your own post.)
The speed is also an issue with twist rate - remember the 22LR is maybe 1050 fps vs. the 3300ish fps of .223.
I understood one concern of too fast a turn rate is that a bullet would generate too much cetrifugal force and pull itself apart. I've never seen that and so I offer that with a grain of salt. Nothing shot on my 1:9 shows any issue with the blazer that would lead me to think this is whats going on - it was just occasional flyers.
Also - I think it had issues between leaving the ceiner chamber and reaching the rifling and that may be what gave issue. More of a hunch on what I was feeling.
I'm suspecting that there mightn't ever be a situation where a bullet actually undergoes a flywheel explosion due to excessive RPMs
There's a company called DRT that makes frangible centerfire rifle ammo that holds together thru non-organic obstacles, yet disintegrates into high-velocity powder upon "soft" contact...rather than a "wound channel" it creates about a 5"x5" hemispherical crater, earning the company it's nickname "Dead Right There"
If a bullet made out of pressed powder won't spin apart, a normal one won't either.
Just for fun, we can convert twist and velocity to RPMs (even though no rifle bullet has a 60-second hangtime)
1:12 x ft/second x 60 would yield the RPMs for a vintage M16 barrel
1: smaller than twelve would spin faster
1: larger than twelve ...slower...asuming all the veloicities stayed the same ...you can play around with the math
a lot of years ago there were special varmint bullets to reload for .22 centerfire cartridges. Seems like Hornady called theirs "SX" for super explosive and Sierra called theirs "blitz" bullets. In the reloading manuals of that day there were warnings not to fire those bullets in the Ruger Mini14's or you risked the bullet disentegrating in flight.
Those bullets had thinner than normal jackets to all the slower moving .22 Hornet, .222 Rem., etc. to achieve bullet expansion similar to the .22-250's and 220 Swifts when the bullet hit the intended varmint.
I used to use those bullets in my Rem. M700 varmint special (1 turn in 12"). Being a "prove it" kind of guy I shot some in my Mini14 one day. Not all the bullets made it to the target 100 yds. away. Even the ones that did make it left a visible contrail of vapor (we assumed it to be lead and jacket material that was being thrown off the bullets as they approached an rpm limit that tore some of the bullets apart) in a slighly spiral pattern all the way to the target.
.223's and varmint bullets are not .22 rimfires. There's no comparison velocity wise. Standard .22 bullets for centerfire rifles should not be coming apart in mid air due to bullet rpm (though there is a report on arfcom about 4 of 10 Colt AR's having bullet disentegration problems with heavy 69 grain bullets during a training class awhile back).
Look at a thrown football for an example of what is happening. Immediately it leaves the fingers, it begins to "wobble" because it is over stabilized. As it looses spin due to friction it begins to "go to sleep" that is, to loose it's yaw and spin about it's true longitudinal axis. If the over stabilization is too extreme it may never "go to sleep".
The amount of twist necessary to stabilize a bullet is dependent on the LENGTH of the bullet not the weight. Look for long for their weight bullets when selecting something to shoot in a fast twist conversion unit. If you want a shocker, try a few of rounds of SSS which is almost the correct length to stabilize in a 1-9 twist barrel. They almost invariably shoot well (maybe that's why I build rifles for that ammo with 1-9 Kreiger barrels).
If you can find an old A1 or A nothing upper you will generally get better performance with rimfire. the 1-12 twist is a lot closer to right for the LR ammo.
You can have the same thing happen in centerfire rounds. m193 is hopelessly overstabilized in 1-9 and 1-7 barrels and seldom performs decently. My 257 delivers relatively lousy groups of 1 3/8" at 100 yards but at 200 those bullets have "gone to sleep" and will group around 3/4".
sam d just described and explained something I'd seen happen, but never knew why...large groups near, and smaller groups far
and your comment about the SSS's swings right back around to a question I'd had, either on this thread, or another, about using'em in a faster-twist barrel, due to being in the same weight(length) neighborhood as the way-faster typical .223
still need to find some short-case/60gr ammo to shoot for groups in the two twists I've got @ my disposal.