I decided not to hijack Appalacious' thread even though there is some mention of this on there. Coming through AS, I was taught to use the loop sling in the standing position. Then I started attending light rifle matches and discovered that I couldn't use one there so I started practicing without one. With the loop sling in the standing, my elbow is under the rifle but it is about four inches from my abdomen. It is still more stable than completely off hand in which I am able to bring my elbow all the way to my abdomen so my arm and elbow are resting on my rib cage and abdomen.
When I was at an AS, an IIT mentioned that he had been taught at his AS' to use a hasty sling in standing. Something about the strap going across the chest of the shooter to help stabilize it. I don't know about that. When I use the hasty sling in standing, I am able to use my HighPower stance with my arm and elbow flat against my body which gives me more stability (I think) and have the hasty sling providing additional support.
Any thoughts on this as to whether it is better to use a hasty sling in standing or a loop? Any thoughts as to what we should be teaching?
We teach you should use the sling standing.
How you do it - which you choose - hasty-hasty, hasty, or loop - is up to you.
Succinctly put. More to the point: Give them the tools and let them build the house.
Quote from: DwayneH on May 12, 2009, 09:30:08 PM
Succinctly put. More to the point: Give them the tools and let them build the house.
Exactly. Show them the variations and let the shooter decide what works best for "them". O0
The way that works for you might now work for me, the way that works for me may not work for Fred. :)
And if they struggle well then it's... &) I'm kidding. :D
I had never shot offhand with a loop sling, but tried it at my first AS. I gave it a shot, but I will stick with the hasty sling for standing and loop sling for sitting and prone.
I guess part of my "problem" though is that being a hunter, I practice all my standing shots with either a hasty sling or a hasty rest, since if I have to take an offhand shot, it's either a timing issue, or obstruction, so it's really more of a carry over from hunting. I also feel that the sling across my chest stablizes me better standing than a loop sling. But there is absolutely no substitution for a loop sling when prone. OK, maybe a M122 Tripod, but that's probably a little excessive for most LTR's! ;D
I agree, give people all the tools you can, and hope that some of them work for them
Humvee, if you want a fast loop for hunting, check out the Ching Sling. Works with the speed of the hasty (you go into it the same way) but gives you the full support of the loop. I have one on all my hunting rifles and it's a superb concept. Fast and solid. Look it up on the net and investigate a bit.
ditto, Ching sling is the way to go
made by Galco (nice leather)
also have them on my wife's rifles
TAZ
Personally, I use hasty for standing, loop for everything else because with a loop in standing, the sling is resting on your arm, which isn't supported by anything in particular, but with the hasty, the sling's at least across your chest and has more support.
In three-position, do you have time to adjust the sling?
Bob
This is one of those question that can be confusing.
For shooting the AQT, loop or hasty is OK in standing, your choice.
For shooting a rapid-fire AQT, you don't have a choice - whatever sling you use standing is the sling you'll have to use thruout the AQT - so it's a good thing to use the loop in standing, so you can continue to use it in the other stages.
However, let's never lose sight of the ultimate fact AS is about: teaching field marksmanship skills.
Practical skills.
As Humvee says, out in the field, when a target unexpectedly appears as you're walking or otherwise standing, hasty (actually, hasty-hasty) is the way to go. The only way, when time is critical.
So, there may be one answer when on the AQT firing line. And another answer out in the field, in "the real world".
So long as we keep that in mind, we'll all answer the question the right way.
That's good to know. I'm extremely comfortable with the hasty in the standing position and it works pretty well in the kneeling (sitting on your trigger foot) position as well. Of course, it is not so hot for prone, where the loop makes more sense. Using a web sling, I haven't had a lot of luck with the loop when seated - the loop tends to slide right down my arm.
Bob
The loop sling also slips on me - if above my bicep, but stays well if I put it below my bicep, above my elbow.
Maybe this is blasphme though - and Nickle and B9 will burn me at the stake as a heritic next weekend in New Bremen...
Quote from: gunville on June 15, 2009, 12:56:03 AM
The loop sling also slips on me - if above my bicep, but stays well if I put it below my bicep, above my elbow.
Maybe this is blasphme though - and Nickle and B9 will burn me at the stake as a heritic next weekend in New Bremen...
One of the many things I have learned as an IIT is the basics must be applied.
The shooter can use whatever style sling set up they want as long as it is used properly.
For example..... Van Etten May 09, a high power shooter was using his version of a loop sling. It was low on the bicep and strangely wrapped over his forearm. He said it was comfortable and working for him. He was doing 206 ish on the AQT. I am thinking "this guy knows more about shooting than I do" and "he is so close if I change anything he will drop back into the 180's."
Near the end of the day with only 2 more AQT's left I said "do it my way, the Appleseed way"
212 and 214 were the next scores if I recall.
So what works for a shooter may not work for hitting the target, and as VAshooter says "being comfortable has nothing to do with it"
gunville, I have seen a couple people that the loop just won't stay up. A shooting jacket like the ones from Fred's have(or can have added) a piece of material to keep it up high.
wouldn't it make more sense to teach awfulhand shooting with the sling in the parade position - if we wish folks to continue on with service rifle type shooting
Quote from: wtr100 on June 15, 2009, 08:21:48 AM
wouldn't it make more sense to teach awfulhand shooting with the sling in the parade position - if we wish folks to continue on with service rifle type shooting
Short answer is that it makes zero sense. We are making Riflemen out of them. Most will never shoot a formal High Power match. This is one fundamental difference between an Appleseed and any match shooting. Appleseed is not a competition. Our goal is to get everyone to a basic level of competency and then encourage them to help do the some for others. We do not encourage repeated attendance in order to improve one's score once Rifleman is achieved. High Power and other competitions reward those with the highest score therefore the goal is to score as high as possible with no formal encouragement to help the next guy on the line. Why induce a handicap in our course of fire because someone "might" wish to shoot competitive matches?
Quote from: fepowered on June 15, 2009, 08:51:49 AM
Quote from: wtr100 on June 15, 2009, 08:21:48 AM
wouldn't it make more sense to teach awfulhand shooting with the sling in the parade position - if we wish folks to continue on with service rifle type shooting
Short answer is that it makes zero sense. We are making Riflemen out of them. Most will never shoot a formal High Power match. This is one fundamental difference between an Appleseed and any match shooting. Appleseed is not a competition. Our goal is to get everyone to a basic level of competency and then encourage them to help do the some for others. We do not encourage repeated attendance in order to improve one's score once Rifleman is achieved. High Power and other competitions reward those with the highest score therefore the goal is to score as high as possible with no formal encouragement to help the next guy on the line. Why induce a handicap in our course of fire because someone "might" wish to shoot competitive matches?
have you ever been to a service rifle match? I've gotten more help from masters / high masters than I would have believed. Maybe I've just been lucky ...
Just chock it up to one of the small quirks with AS and keep on spreading the good word
Quote from: wtr100 on June 15, 2009, 11:16:05 AM
have you ever been to a service rifle match? I've gotten more help from masters / high masters than I would have believed. Maybe I've just been lucky ...
Just chock it up to one of the small quirks with AS and keep on spreading the good word
Yes, I have. I have met helpful people and have met those who appear more interested in themselves than the future of the sport. Most people are helpful if you have questions. My point is that High Power as a sport and competition has a goal of individuals achieving the highest possible score and rewarding these individuals. Appleseed has a goal of making Riflemen while achieving the Riflemans' standard of scoring a 210. Although the 2 groups can be very complimentary to each other, they are different animals on many levels with different motivations and missions.
Quote from: fepowered on June 15, 2009, 08:51:49 AM
High Power and other competitions reward those with the highest score therefore the goal is to score as high as possible with no formal encouragement to help the next guy on the line. Why induce a handicap in our course of fire because someone "might" wish to shoot competitive matches?
That's a pretty broad brush and is the opposite of every HP match I have ever shot in my 15 years of competition.
They have all been some of the nicest and knowledge sharing shooters I have ever been around.
Quote from: sgthoskins on June 15, 2009, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: fepowered on June 15, 2009, 08:51:49 AM
High Power and other competitions reward those with the highest score therefore the goal is to score as high as possible with no formal encouragement to help the next guy on the line. Why induce a handicap in our course of fire because someone "might" wish to shoot competitive matches?
That's a pretty broad brush and is the opposite of every HP match I have ever shot in my 15 years of competition.
They have all been some of the nicest and knowledge sharing shooters I have ever been around.
If you read it again, I stated "formal" encouragement as in part of the program. I have attended several Service Rifle Clinics where the intent is to introduce new shooters to the sport but these were trial by "fire". The majority of the time was spent firing a match and not in instruction. I also stated in the post that I have met those who WERE helpful. It is worth repeating that most of the competitors I have met WERE helpful. Any help which one competitor gives another is a result and a reflection of them as a person and not necessarily the structure of a High Power match. My simple premise is that the FORMAL goal of a High Power match is for the individual to score their highest possible score. This is much different than Appleseed where the FORMAL goal is for all participants to become Riflemen. This thread has gone on an unproductive tangent. The question was posed whether we should do away with the sling for off-hand because High Power does not allow a sling to be used as a support. It must be on the rifle but tight and not looped on your arm or hand. My response was that Appleseed is not High Power and I stated my perceived differences in the practical observed mission of each. I in no way intended to be critical of High Power shooters as individuals and their willingness to contribute their help and knowledge to others. :)
Quote from: B9 on June 15, 2009, 07:46:27 AM
One of the many things I have learned as an IIT is the basics must be applied.
...
Near the end of the day with only 2 more AQT's left I said "do it my way, the Appleseed way"
212 and 214 were the next scores if I recall.
...
gunville, I have seen a couple people that the loop just won't stay up. A shooting jacket like the ones from Fred's have(or can have added) a piece of material to keep it up high.
B9 - you make an interesting point - the basics have to be applied, and I would be a fool to ignore the advice of the best shooters.
I went to my first appleseed and didn't achieve rifleman. It was a long ride back. Contemplating my disappointment I had an epiphany - there were a few "fundamentals" I had danced around, I forgot to bring the most important thing.... the "teachable attitude".
I won't make the same mistake - the teachable attitude comes with me from now on, and I'll use the sling as specified if I have to pin it to my arm.
It is common for people to have the loop sling slip down if you have the buckle toward the inside of your arm. Often times if you simply rotate the buckle to the outside of your arm or at least center or a little left of center (right with left handed shooters) so that it actually tightens with more tension, the sling will stay in place. If you have the loop twisted the wrong way before you place your arm into it, it will also slip.