Greetings All,
I'd like to ask a few questions to you all regarding AR Barrels and what .223 Rem/5.56 55 gr ammo you'd recommend for a shooter to bring to a Known Distance clinic.
It dawned on me some time ago that as a reloader, I hardly ever buy factory ammo. In fact, the only factory ammo I have bought and run through my AR's was PMC Bronze, 55 gr FMJ. This was back in 2008, when I bought my first AR, a S&W MP 15 (1-9 twist). I still have some of it. With me in sling, prone on the mat (4x scope), I can hold 2.5 MOA with this rig. Not too bad.
With my Service Rifle (Compass Lake lower and Rock River Arms upper with 4x scope – 1 in 8 twist) I get 1.75 MOA groups. Again, that's with me in sling, prone on the mat. Again, not so bad.
That's it! That is the sum total of my experience with factory ammo in an AR! :)
Next, we know that 1-8 or 1-9 twist barrels are not the ideal twist rates for 55 grain bullets, but, that PMC ammo would at least be acceptable out of my rifles for a KD.
This is where you guys come in. I'm looking for answers to four questions:
1. Am I wrong in thinking that 'most' barrels on AR-15 style rifles come with 1-8 or 1-9 twist barrels these days?
2. What are your two or three 'go-to' brands of factory 55 gr FMJ?
3. Is there a brand of 55 gr ammo you would never recommend?
4. Do you ever suspect some shooters at KDs using 55 gr ammo have problems due to fast twist rate barrels?
The reason I ask that third question is from what I've seen in the forums regarding .22 LR recommendations. Most say CCI Standard is their go-to ammo. Flip side, most say stay away from Remington Golden.
Hopefully I'm asking these questions in the right way.
Looking forward to reading what everyone has to say.
In Liberty,
Gus
1. As far as I know most ars come in 1:7 these days. 20 years ago they were mostly 1:9, but nowadays everyone wants mil spec.
2. Pmc xtac in either m193 or m855 is my first choice based on my experiences. Not sure if the current m855 is as good as my circa 2008 that I have set aside, but I get sub 2 moa out of a standard ar and near moa with their m193. Second and third choices would be federal or Winchester m193. 4th is norma TAC 55 gr. It's probably the most accurate of all of them but near twice the price.
3. I don't recommend any of the steel cases ammo due it occasionally seizing to the chamber. Although I have shot a rifleman score with wolf in the past. Don't also recommend wolf gold. I bought 10k rds last time it was cheap and 2-3 cartridges out of every k was deformed.
4. When you say fast twist I am interpreting that as 1:7 twist. The answer is no. If they are having problems it is a software error usually. Most of my kd scores with a 5.56 platform have been shot out of a 1:7 twist barrel with 55 grain in some form. My last kd score I shot with my own 55 gr reloads. Mixed brass, mixed primers. I had a lot of partial boxes of primers left over.
As far as barrels go: I can not advise you as I own nothing that is considered to be match grade.
Your setup that you currently have sounds like it is good to go. If you haven't been to a kd before I wouldn't buy anything new before you go.
I will say that I have been advised by more advanced shooters in the program that at some of the kd ranges like McMinnville, 5.56 shooters prefer mk262 or similar due to the potential for strong cross winds.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM3-22.9%252803%2529.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjK7bm52sGPAxXiDEQIHY0lG9UQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1wZn2BJu2nUjym-yvavph1
Here's an older version of fm 3-22.9. on pages 109-110 of the pdf it addresses shooting m855 out of an m16a1 and m193 out of an a2. M855 out of an a1 with a 1:12 twist spreads beyond the target past 100 meters. M193 (55 gr) out of an a2 with a 1:7 twist is perfectly fine within combat distance
I requalified KD using 55 gr. PMC bronze out of a 20" 1:8 barrel.
Sighted in at 300, hold low for 100/200, but dialed in 14 clicks ↑ (1.4 mrad) for 400.
Hey Gus,
The sizing of the KD targets supports the AS premise of shooting with a rack grade rifle using commercial bulk ammunition. Nothing fancy is needed to score 40 hits on the CKD targets. As long as you can get a good NPOA on the target and adjust for any environmental effects, the hits will be in the black.
Any reputable brand of ammunition will work fine in a 1 in 8 twist. I have seen just about every brand of ammo used in a CKD event and all of them have shot decent groups.
I do not reload AR ammo, as it is cheap enough to buy. I have used both economy grade bulk 5.56 and fancy match grade ammo and it did not make much of difference. My KD scores are all dependent on how well I shoot that day versus the type of ammo that I have used.
Quote from: Prescott on September 05, 2025, 11:48:11 AMAny reputable brand of ammunition will work fine in a 1 in 8 twist. I have seen just about every brand of ammo used in a CKD event and all of them have shot decent groups.
1/8 is the perfect twist rate. If you're looking to buy a barrel 1/8 with a Wylde chamber is the best all around setup there is. 1/8 works great with 55gr, better than 1/7, and is enough to stabilize up to 75g too.
QuoteI do not reload AR ammo, as it is cheap enough to buy. I have used both economy grade bulk 5.56 and fancy match grade ammo and it did not make much of difference. My KD scores are all dependent on how well I shoot that day versus the type of ammo that I have used.
Same here. If you do your part even off the shelf 55gr will work fine at a KD. I don't even bother with 75gr anymore although it is nice. With 55 just need to read the wind a bit better and figure out your windage holdovers. The last PMC I used was the X-Tac and it was really nice.
I do like the Frontier Match 556 though. It's not too expensive compared to other match. I've got just a tad over 1moa when doing prone before. But that's on a good day. And we all have bad days too. It's all in your head.
I stay the heck away from M855. I've seen twice in my life where you'd be lucky to get 5moa. I suppose some batches are made such the steel core is not perfectly centered or something. I was zeroing before a run n' gun a few years back with M855. It sucked. A buddy took pity on me and gave me some M193 he had else that day would have sucked.
I've do have some M855 but that's in case I ever need it for hard targets and at close range.
This might be, to me, the perfect barrel. QPQ (Melonite) treated so it last a long time. It's stainless so usually more accurate due to easier to machine, but the QPQ treatment makes it last almost as long as a chrome lined. Hanson profile is lightweight too but not pencil lightweight:
https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15-barrels-223-wylde-5-56mm-300-blk-and-6-5-grendel/ballistic-advantage-16-223-wylde-ba-hanson-midlength-ar15-barrel-w-lo-pro-750-gas-block-premium-black-series/
Quote from: scuzzy on September 05, 2025, 01:25:25 PMThis might be, to me, the perfect barrel. QPQ (Melonite) treated so it last a long time. It's stainless so usually more accurate due to easier to machine, but the QPQ treatment makes it last almost as long as a chrome lined. Hanson profile is lightweight too but not pencil lightweight:
https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15-barrels-223-wylde-5-56mm-300-blk-and-6-5-grendel/ballistic-advantage-16-223-wylde-ba-hanson-midlength-ar15-barrel-w-lo-pro-750-gas-block-premium-black-series/
Nitpick: Like most lightweight-profile .223 barrels, I find this barrel is imperfect due solely to insufficient length, relative to the original A1. This means it shoots a bit louder with most ammo, and it leaves velocity on the table particularly when shooting 77gr ammo beyond the Quarter Mile. (And unfortunately, as usual, this storefront doesn't sell anything that is exactly like this barrel but at twenty-inch length - all the twenty-inchers are heavy profile and/or beadblasted instead of QPQ'ed.)
Quote from: DEH on September 05, 2025, 09:47:38 AMI will say that I have been advised by more advanced shooters in the program that at some of the kd ranges like McMinnville, 5.56 shooters prefer mk262 or similar due to the potential for strong cross winds.
Indeed. Many here in TN have a love/hate relationship with the McMinnville range ;D
Quote from: Prescott on September 05, 2025, 11:48:11 AMThe sizing of the KD targets supports the AS premise of shooting with a rack grade rifle using commercial bulk ammunition. Nothing fancy is needed to score 40 hits on the CKD targets. As long as you can get a good NPOA on the target and adjust for any environmental effects, the hits will be in the black.
In my humble opinion, THIS!
400 yards and in 55gr, XM193 is more than good enough for Appleseed and shoot well from 1:8 twist. My 1:8 twist will stabilize 77gr. SMK and give 1.25 MOA out to 600 and make hits on 4 MOA out to 800.