From the experts with experience at the known distance 200 yard rimfire event, what makes a good rifle or build? I shot a Marlin 795 for the 25 yard event and it did great. I have a strong feeling that I'll need to consider either a bolt action or a specific build like a 10-22 to be competitive at 200 yards and be able to secure a patch. What are folks thoughts on this? Currently I'm recognizing the need for a reasonably high power optic and that will likely be on a CZ 457 with a 20 MOA rail or a 10/22 with some upgrades.
From my experience with 200y RKDs, the ammo selection is far more important than the rifle selection.
Most bulk ammo is very inconsistent. I have had good luck with CCI Std Velocity YMMV.
A quality scope, like we have in the Appleseed store, is also a must. I have seen a lot of inexpensive scopes fail due to the range of adjustment necessary at an RKD.
Good luck on your journey to earn your RKD!!
Thank you so much for the response and I completely understand regarding ammo. I've seen a big difference in accuracy shifting from 25 yards to 100 yards with respect to ammo. CCI Standard Velocity is my go to default for all things shooting so I'm with you completely. With an optic at 200 yards, I know I need at least a scope with lots of travel or the use of a 20 MOA rail. In the Benchrest Community, shooting 50-100 yards, they seem to like having 24x up. Is that something I should be looking for with respect to the 200 KD? The scopes on the appleseed sight appear to be 2-7x which I think is perfect for 25-50 yards but I wasn't sure if that would be enough for 200 yards.
Afternoon, sir! Fellow Marlin fan here.
Those little 795s are crazy accurate. Far more than their price point would indicate. It's a fine choice.
There are 20moa picatinny rail adapters out there for the integral dovetail mount. You'll surely find you want it on there ALL the time. Scopes do love to walk around on a dovetail :slap:
I recently shot my first 200y RKD, and I found the 2-7 magnification to be sufficient for the task. That target ISN'T small.
I hope that helps!
Its like this topic keeps popping up ;D
I've got the scope we have in the store, but still need to track down the rail.
Quote from: Mrs. Smith on January 31, 2025, 03:01:11 PMAfternoon, sir! Fellow Marlin fan here.
Those little 795s are crazy accurate. Far more than their price point would indicate. It's a fine choice.
There are 20moa picatinny rail adapters out there for the integral dovetail mount. You'll surely find you want it on there ALL the time. Scopes do love to walk around on a dovetail :slap:
I recently shot my first 200y RKD, and I found the 2-7 magnification to be sufficient for the task. That target ISN'T small.
I hope that helps!
Yeah I love my 795 and all Marlin rifles. The 795 with a DIP trigger and peeps was awesome for 25 yards. I was very happy getting my rifleman's patch with that on my first Appleseed! I definitely want something with a rail/moa cant for 200 yards. I have a Marlin 925 bolt gun with a trigger I worked over. How big are these targets? Maybe I'm over thinking this! I assumed they were relatively small like the 25 yard event targets.
Quote from: ChuckA on January 31, 2025, 03:48:17 PMIts like this topic keeps popping up ;D
I've got the scope we have in the store, but still need to track down the rail.
If you have some recommended reading I'm open to it. I scanned many of the latest topics and didn't see much on the 200 KD rimfire.
There was a discussion the other night off the forum, but one of the resources I was pointed to is the "How to Prepare" file for a RFKD.
https://appleseedinfo.org/pdf/How%20to%20Prepare%20-%20Rimfire%20KD.pdf
Quote from: Dmthomp32 on January 31, 2025, 03:57:57 PMQuote from: ChuckA on January 31, 2025, 03:48:17 PMIts like this topic keeps popping up ;D
I've got the scope we have in the store, but still need to track down the rail.
If you have some recommended reading I'm open to it. I scanned many of the latest topics and didn't see much on the 200 KD rimfire.
200 yard rimfire is a great event.
I shot one last year with a factory 10/22 with a 10x scope and a 30 moa rail.
Mini mags had a 40+ inch drop at 200 with a 50 yard zero. I understand CCI SV has a 60"+ drop at 200.
We shot dialing the turrets and using holdovers in the reticle.
I think the black target center is approximately 8" tall and 12" wide
Quote from: ChuckA on January 31, 2025, 04:12:28 PMThere was a discussion the other night off the forum, but one of the resources I was pointed to is the "How to Prepare" file for a RFKD.
https://appleseedinfo.org/pdf/How%20to%20Prepare%20-%20Rimfire%20KD.pdf
Quote from: Dmthomp32 on January 31, 2025, 03:57:57 PMQuote from: ChuckA on January 31, 2025, 03:48:17 PMIts like this topic keeps popping up ;D
I've got the scope we have in the store, but still need to track down the rail.
If you have some recommended reading I'm open to it. I scanned many of the latest topics and didn't see much on the 200 KD rimfire.
Thank you!
Dmthomp32, First of all, welcome to Known Distance! I find KDs to be a heck of a lot of fun and very satisfying. In 2024, I did a lot of KD shooting (four, all centerfire), both officially at Appleseed events and for practice.
Love the fact that you have and use the 795! I have a couple of them and they both shoot very well. Honestly, your Marlin 795 will work just fine for you at a KD.
The ammo you use at a 25 meter clinic can be downright sloppy, and you can still make a rifleman's score. by sloppy I mean inconsistent for extreme spread of high and low velocity in, say, a 10 shot string. The ammo you find in bulk packs (little buckets, 'milk cartons', or a square box) is what I lovingly call 'Blammo-Ammo'. don't use that at a KD! Stay away from Remington golden as well. Buy and use blammo-ammo, but save that for when you're knocking tin cans off a stump at 50 yards.
Some shooters go for the match grade stuff. It's expensive-some of it goes for $15-$20 for a box of 50. Some folks find it too expensive to justify on a 25 meter clinic, but it can make sense at a 200 yard KD. Match grade ammo from Federal, Eley, RWS is very good, consistent ammo. If your wallet can stand the gaff, match grade ammo is a consideration.
Let's talk about the ES spread thing a bit more. at 50 and 100 yards, inconsistent ammo won't be too much of a factor, you'll still hold the black. But at 150 and 200 it is a different story. If your chosen ammo has an average velocity of, say 1112 fps, but extreme spreads of 70 to 100 fps, the slower bullets will be making holes below the black. You as a shooter may be doing everything right: Solid position, NPOA, the Six Steps, but, you ammo is letting you down in stages 3 and 4.
All that said, I too run with either CCI standard velocity with a scope, or, when I shoot irons, I run CCI Mini Mags in 40 gr roundnose. In my rifles, both demonstrate acceptable ES in their velocities.
Why the mini mags? In short, flatter trajectory. Some shooters may disagree with using mini mags because they start off supersonic, and slow to sub sonic somewhere in the 80 to 100 yard distance. that transition can affect some rimfire ammo's accuracy. In short, experiment a bit. I did not see any negative effects using mini mags in Idaho during my practice KDs. Small short story to follow:)
Last summer when I had the delightful luxury of Time and Space in Idaho's Snake River Plain, I endeavored one fine morning to see if I could make a Rifleman's score with my two Liberty Training Rifles. They are both Rugerr 10/22s and they're both equipped with Tech Sights. One had the TSR100 version and the other has the TSR200 rear sight. You see the difference: The TSR 200 has enough elevation to get you out to 200 yards and maintain a 6 o'clock hold, which is what I prefer. Of course, as a shooter you are also adjusting the front sight as well.
I found when running CCI standard velocity ammo I ran out of elevation on both rear and front sights. I had to hold at the top of the target frame to drop the bullets into the black. With the CCI Mini Mag, I could maintain my preferred 6 o'clock hold on the targets. With the TSR200 equipped rifle, I managed a 41x50 in hits going through the first time. Once I had my DOPE, and since the weather conditions were fantastic (warm, maybe a 5 mph breeze) I shot a second AQT. 50x50 with irons. Attached is a picture of my rifle and target from that day. Granted it was not official, but it sure was fun. Just something to consider.
But, just so you know, by the time I got to 200 yards, the TSR200 only had another few clicks in it! On the first attempt with the 22" I scored a 41/50. On my second attempt with the 22" I put it all together and managed a 50/50. There was one shot in the upper left that only nicked the black, but, a nick it is. I fairly floated back to the camper that day! It was very unofficial, but it made me happy just the same.
So, and this is my opinion, the TSR200 rear sight and CCI Mini-Mags are the way to go when shooting a rimfire KD with open sighted Liberty training rifle.
BTW, my 'firing line' was my truck bed! The Snake River Plain of southern Idaho had a lot of moisture in the spring and how the grass did grow. I needed to get above that so, the truck bed served me well!
5050.jpg5050.jpg
For KDs when shooting a scope, you don't need more than 4x. I have a 4x Vortex on my AR15 for shooting centerfire KDs and it is very satisfactory. If you want more than 4x, go for it. I'd never try to talk you out of it. I'm just saying 4x is plenty. The same math holds for the 200 yard KD in that the targets are scaled to simulate a man-size target at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards even though you're shooting at 50, 100, 150 and 200.
Lastly, if you go with a new scope, make sure of two things: mount it far enough forward so that you get enough eye relief in prone. too many shooters mount their scopes too far back. second, make sure the comb of your rifle stock is built up high enough so when you get your cheek weld, you're looking into the center of the ocular lens. do those two things and you'll be golden.
for what it's worth, I have a full write up of my Idaho time in Road to rifleman/skills sets of shooting, rimfire known distance with irons. I'd include a link right here, but I don't know how to do that.
Good Luck and keep 'em in the black!
In Liberty,
Gus
I used a Ruger 10/22 with no upgrades other than a Bushnell scope and shot the shingle and scored Rifleman at a RKD. I'm pretty sure I used plinker ammo like Federal too, although I may have used CCI. I've always blamed myself for scoring less than I want. Now that friends have let me use their rifles, I think there's a balance. Don't borrow the really nice stuff until you're willing to pay for the really nice stuff. Ignorance is bliss!
Good luck!
Quote from: Gus on January 31, 2025, 07:29:21 PMDmthomp32, First of all, welcome to Known Distance! I find KDs to be a heck of a lot of fun and very satisfying. In 2024, I did a lot of KD shooting (four, all centerfire), both officially at Appleseed events and for practice.
Love the fact that you have and use the 795! I have a couple of them and they both shoot very well. Honestly, your Marlin 795 will work just fine for you at a KD.
The ammo you use at a 25 meter clinic can be downright sloppy, and you can still make a rifleman's score. by sloppy I mean inconsistent for extreme spread of high and low velocity in, say, a 10 shot string. The ammo you find in bulk packs (little buckets, 'milk cartons', or a square box) is what I lovingly call 'Blammo-Ammo'. don't use that at a KD! Stay away from Remington golden as well. Buy and use blammo-ammo, but save that for when you're knocking tin cans off a stump at 50 yards.
Some shooters go for the match grade stuff. It's expensive-some of it goes for $15-$20 for a box of 50. Some folks find it too expensive to justify on a 25 meter clinic, but it can make sense at a 200 yard KD. Match grade ammo from Federal, Eley, RWS is very good, consistent ammo. If your wallet can stand the gaff, match grade ammo is a consideration.
Let's talk about the ES spread thing a bit more. at 50 and 100 yards, inconsistent ammo won't be too much of a factor, you'll still hold the black. But at 150 and 200 it is a different story. If your chosen ammo has an average velocity of, say 1112 fps, but extreme spreads of 70 to 100 fps, the slower bullets will be making holes below the black. You as a shooter may be doing everything right: Solid position, NPOA, the Six Steps, but, you ammo is letting you down in stages 3 and 4.
All that said, I too run with either CCI standard velocity with a scope, or, when I shoot irons, I run CCI Mini Mags in 40 gr roundnose. In my rifles, both demonstrate acceptable ES in their velocities.
Why the mini mags? In short, flatter trajectory. Some shooters may disagree with using mini mags because they start off supersonic, and slow to sub sonic somewhere in the 80 to 100 yard distance. that transition can affect some rimfire ammo's accuracy. In short, experiment a bit. I did not see any negative effects using mini mags in Idaho during my practice KDs. Small short story to follow:)
Last summer when I had the delightful luxury of Time and Space in Idaho's Snake River Plain, I endeavored one fine morning to see if I could make a Rifleman's score with my two Liberty Training Rifles. They are both Rugerr 10/22s and they're both equipped with Tech Sights. One had the TSR100 version and the other has the TSR200 rear sight. You see the difference: The TSR 200 has enough elevation to get you out to 200 yards and maintain a 6 o'clock hold, which is what I prefer. Of course, as a shooter you are also adjusting the front sight as well.
I found when running CCI standard velocity ammo I ran out of elevation on both rear and front sights. I had to hold at the top of the target frame to drop the bullets into the black. With the CCI Mini Mag, I could maintain my preferred 6 o'clock hold on the targets. With the TSR200 equipped rifle, I managed a 41x50 in hits going through the first time. Once I had my DOPE, and since the weather conditions were fantastic (warm, maybe a 5 mph breeze) I shot a second AQT. 50x50 with irons. Attached is a picture of my rifle and target from that day. Granted it was not official, but it sure was fun. Just something to consider.
But, just so you know, by the time I got to 200 yards, the TSR200 only had another few clicks in it! On the first attempt with the 22" I scored a 41/50. On my second attempt with the 22" I put it all together and managed a 50/50. There was one shot in the upper left that only nicked the black, but, a nick it is. I fairly floated back to the camper that day! It was very unofficial, but it made me happy just the same.
So, and this is my opinion, the TSR200 rear sight and CCI Mini-Mags are the way to go when shooting a rimfire KD with open sighted Liberty training rifle.
BTW, my 'firing line' was my truck bed! The Snake River Plain of southern Idaho had a lot of moisture in the spring and how the grass did grow. I needed to get above that so, the truck bed served me well!
5050.jpg5050.jpg
For KDs when shooting a scope, you don't need more than 4x. I have a 4x Vortex on my AR15 for shooting centerfire KDs and it is very satisfactory. If you want more than 4x, go for it. I'd never try to talk you out of it. I'm just saying 4x is plenty. The same math holds for the 200 yard KD in that the targets are scaled to simulate a man-size target at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards even though you're shooting at 50, 100, 150 and 200.
Lastly, if you go with a new scope, make sure of two things: mount it far enough forward so that you get enough eye relief in prone. too many shooters mount their scopes too far back. second, make sure the comb of your rifle stock is built up high enough so when you get your cheek weld, you're looking into the center of the ocular lens. do those two things and you'll be golden.
for what it's worth, I have a full write up of my Idaho time in Road to rifleman/skills sets of shooting, rimfire known distance with irons. I'd include a link right here, but I don't know how to do that.
Good Luck and keep 'em in the black!
In Liberty,
Gus
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Makes believe that that it's not so much about the equipment even at 200 yards. I really thought optic power and rifle would play a bigger role with the increased distance.
Quote from: upacreek on January 31, 2025, 07:42:12 PMI used a Ruger 10/22 with no upgrades other than a Bushnell scope and shot the shingle and scored Rifleman at a RKD. I'm pretty sure I used plinker ammo like Federal too, although I may have used CCI. I've always blamed myself for scoring less than I want. Now that friends have let me use their rifles, I think there's a balance. Don't borrow the really nice stuff until you're willing to pay for the really nice stuff. Ignorance is bliss!
Good luck!
That's good to know. It's also one of the reasons why I like the Appleseed shoots much better than benchrest competitions. In Appleseed you can compete with just about any rifle, so long as your skills are on point. Benchrest seems to be almost can your rifle do everything for you with as little input as possible from the shooter.
That is solid advise from upacreek! Never look through glass or try a trigger you can't afford. Warning you are surrounded by people that will say, " Just TRY it." 😈
I used a bone stock 10/22, Blackhawk Axiom stock, Center Point 3-12 target turrets (discontinued) under $100 and Blazer Bulk 40gr. 45/50
This was 2021, Blazer bulk is no longer 40 gr. so I would just run boxed Blazer.
CCI Blazer 40 gr. Bulk, scope @12x
25m zero
50 same hold (1moa up)
75 2.25 MOA
100 yards 3rd line 5.75" drop 6 MOA
150 yards 6th line hold a little high, 19.5", 13 MOA
200 .... 46" 23 MOA
I don't see the clip to add pictures. :wb:
Quote from: Charles McKinley on February 02, 2025, 03:23:38 PMI don't see the clip to add pictures. :wb:
you trying to upload or use a photo hosting site?
Quote from: Charles McKinley on February 02, 2025, 03:23:38 PMI used a bone stock 10/22, Blackhawk Axiom stock, Center Point 3-12 target turrets (discontinued) under $100 and Blazer Bulk 40gr. 45/50
This was 2021, Blazer bulk is no longer 40 gr. so I would just run boxed Blazer.
CCI Blazer 40 gr. Bulk, scope @12x
25m zero
50 same hold (1moa up)
75 2.25 MOA
100 yards 3rd line 5.75" drop 6 MOA
150 yards 6th line hold a little high, 19.5", 13 MOA
200 .... 46" 23 MOA
I don't see the clip to add pictures. :wb:
I know you weren't able to post a picture but are you saying you qualified just fine with a stock 10-22?
A stock 10/22 is more than enough to shoot a RKD. Add a scope and you are in business.
Unless you are looking for a reason to build a new 10/22 run what you have.
MAHA
Quote from: Mahamotorworks on February 02, 2025, 09:46:48 PMA stock 10/22 is more than enough to shoot a RKD. Add a scope and you are in business.
Unless you are looking for a reason to build a new 10/22 run what you have.
MAHA
Will do! Thanks for the insights!
Quote from: Dmthomp32 on January 31, 2025, 12:53:10 PMCurrently I'm recognizing the need for a reasonably high power optic...
You don't need a high power optic. 4X is plenty and even that is not needed, people still use iron sights on rifles to shoot out to 1K yards.
I recognize that folks still use iron sights for distance shooting. I think with rimfire it's a little different just based upon the amount of drop at 200 yards. I remember reading about two guys who spent quite a bit of time prepping for the 200 yard KD, where they used tech sights/bolt actions. They both were able to score rifleman but it was a big deal apparently. My eyes were able to pull it off at 25 yards, I don't see them holding up at 200 yards. So a scope will be in my future, the next consideration is that you will either need hold over markers or enough range in that scope to compensate for like 40" of drop.
Quote from: Mahamotorworks on February 02, 2025, 09:46:48 PMA stock 10/22 is more than enough to shoot a RKD. Add a scope and you are in business.
Unless you are looking for a reason to build a new 10/22 run what you have.
MAHA
I agree with Maha - you shouldn't need a tricked-out rifle to patch at 200 yd RKD. I second another poster's recommendation of the Vortex scope for sale at the Appleseed store.
I prefer HV ammo simply because the drop is smaller, which means less knob-turning on the sighting system
A Rifleman score at a 200 yd RKD with bolt + irons is definitely possible, but you should consider doing some pre-work. I shot steel at 200 yds to prove to myself that my equipment was capable and my ballistics app was in the ballpark.
A stock 10/22, a sub $100 Wally World scope and bulk Blazer and scored a 45.
The target is huge. Know your come ups and hold hard. Solid fundamentals are way more important.
Get a 6' (more if using sv)piece of card board, place a target on top, shoot at 50 (should be close to your 25m zero), keep your point of aim 2 MOA ish as you move back to 100, 125, 150 and 200. Measure down from the center of your target and you have your drop. Confirm your comeups and scope tracking. Time at the range is much better than tricked out gear. CCI has messed with their bulk ammo so I would buy the bricks.
Quote from: desert_diver on February 04, 2025, 11:51:10 PMQuote from: Mahamotorworks on February 02, 2025, 09:46:48 PMA stock 10/22 is more than enough to shoot a RKD. Add a scope and you are in business.
Unless you are looking for a reason to build a new 10/22 run what you have.
MAHA
I agree with Maha - you shouldn't need a tricked-out rifle to patch at 200 yd RKD. I second another poster's recommendation of the Vortex scope for sale at the Appleseed store.
I prefer HV ammo simply because the drop is smaller, which means less knob-turning on the sighting system
A Rifleman score at a 200 yd RKD with bolt + irons is definitely possible, but you should consider doing some pre-work. I shot steel at 200 yds to prove to myself that my equipment was capable and my ballistics app was in the ballpark.
Seems to be a theme! I guess I need to order or print out their 200 yard target. Maybe I've misjudged the whole thing. I know I can hit 6" steel at 100 yards with iron sights at ease with just a 5-6" hold over using my Marlin 795. I've just never had a space to shoot 200 yards to even test the waters.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on February 05, 2025, 06:11:01 PMA stock 10/22, a sub $100 Wally World scope and bulk Blazer and scored a 45.
The target is huge. Know your come ups and hold hard. Solid fundamentals are way more important.
Get a 6' (more if using sv)piece of card board, place a target on top, shoot at 50 (should be close to your 25m zero), keep your point of aim 2 MOA ish as you move back to 100, 125, 150 and 200. Measure down from the center of your target and you have your drop. Confirm your comeups and scope tracking. Time at the range is much better than tricked out gear. CCI has messed with their bulk ammo so I would buy the bricks.
I don't have a range for 200 yards. Farthest I can shoot locally is 100 yards. This is good advice though and I'll use it once I find a Rimfire KD close enough.
There are some standard come up tables and a bunch of other very useful goodies in the "How to prepare" document on our website.
https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/
You'll do great!
Hopefully get to do a rimfire KD as well as centerfire this year. For rimfire I'm bringing a factory 10/22 with BX1 trigger, bull barrel, and over molded stock with a RLS sling, Leopold 2x-7x rimfire scope, and depending on the state a Sparrow suppressor. Other gun I'll bring is the Tippman M4-22 Appleseed edition with same model scope, sling, and probably won't put a can on it. I'll be running CCI standard velocity with either gun.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/033P-4NXi4m5zHQwMQLsF8kFA
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0152a7ft51Ia02rLurgNSMkkQ
If this works you can see the said box of Blazer bulk and the 45/50 target. Top link should be the rifle the bottom the target. Will get the hang of this interwebs stuff one of these days.
I agree with what's been said already. I'll just add my two cents regarding the 795 specifically. I shot all three rimfire courses with one and have a system that works well for me.
1) Buy a scope with positive clicks. No "mushy" turrets that make you guess.
2) Use 3.8" dovetail rings attaching the scope directly to the rifle.
3) Zero at 75 yards. This will allow you to shoot 25 meter events (6 O'clock hold on stage 4), battlesight zero (no sight adjustment needed) at 100 yard rimfire KD events and fewer adjustments (150 and 200 only) at 200 yard events.