These are my personal notes/reflections from the Appleseed (January 2025 CdA) on things that have helped me to shoot better and areas that I'm focussing on. This is NOT official Appleseed instruction. These are the things I'm learning while working on shooting a 250. These are not the types of things that are going to get you to rifleman; following the instruction at the AS will do that. O0
With that disclaimer out of the way hopefully I won't be chastised by any green hats regarding the sharing of any of my personal opinions. :sb:
Also, the equipment I'm talking about is not budget friendly so no need to point that out to me.
Equipment: :snipersmi
Optics:
I just added an extended rail on my 10/22, and I still have my scope all the way forward. Nobody ever puts their scopes far enough forward. If I could impart a single piece of advice to do prior to the Appleseed, it would be to move your scope all the way forward. I did find that I was struggling to maintain focus with the Diamondback scope so I'm going to put my Razor 3-15 on there for the next shoot. I'll probably see if I can't find a nice 6x fixed scope to go on there in the long term.
Barrel:
I just put a new Kidd barrel on my 10/22, and I love it. It's considerably more accurate than the TacSol barrel that I had before, and I like the weight. With proper form, the weight of the barrel shouldn't matter since you're using your bone structure to support the rifle, and a heavier barrel moves slower and is more steady. I say this because I don't think it's worth getting a light weight barrel unless you're using this rifle for something other than AS.
Trigger:
I'm currently running a Timney trigger group. It's a great trigger, but I do wish that it was a little lighter. I think something around 1.5-2 lbs would be perfect for me.
Magazines:
I added some mag bases to all of my mags which really helped to give them a little extra weight and to give me a place to grab if one got stuck. I also printed up a magazine caddy which was really nice because it kept them in the appropriate position making grabbing them quickly easier. I need to print another one with 100% fill for weight because I did end up lifting the tray up with the magazine at one point because it was so light.
Sling:
I've gone to just using a loop sling for all of my positions. It's taking a little getting use to for standing, but I really like having a single setup for everything. I'm currently using the top end of a Magpul sling with some modifications. If you're curious, I can show you. I also use a QD on the rifle so that I can keep it on rather than having to get in and out of it constantly.
Ammo:
CCI Target SD seems to print the best. I'll probably try some other ones at some point, but I think it's shooting better than I am so no hurry.
Gloves:
I finally pulled the trigger on getting some ECC gloves, and I love them. They're not cheap, but they kept my hands surprisingly warm, and I could still load mags quite easily with them.
Stage Specific: :F
I found that taking one or two really deep breaths prior to the start of a stage really helped. Since I end up taking short breaths between shots, having cleared out the lungs before the stage really helped.
Stage 1
"Aim small, miss small". In the past, I've always viewed this as just a line out of a movie, but there's more truth to it than I realized. Once I started focusing on aiming for the "V", my groups got tighter. Now a miss might still be inside the 5 but outside of the "V", and I was a bit pickier about my shots.
NPOA matters on this stage. I normally just get a comfortable stance and start sending rounds, but my shooting improved when I took the time during prep to really find my NPOA. Just a little bit of muscling the shot makes a difference.
This is one that I need to practice at home and just work on creating a more stable platform. I need to practice all of them but especially this one.
Stage 2
This is the hardest stage for me. I found that I was better off taking a couple more seconds to really find NPOA when first sitting down and then taking multiple shots on the breath. If I really had my NPOA, it was easy to get two shots off on a single breath, and I could even get all three on a single breath after the mag change if I was really on it because after the shot, I was already back on target.
I found that I often times ended up low on my first two shots on this stage. I need to work on this and figure out exactly what's going on. I'm not sure if it's cheek weld or just jerking the trigger a bit, but it was a trend for most of the shoot. It did get a little better as I took a couple extra seconds settling in after the transition.
I need to keep up the Rifleman Yoga. I did a good job of stretching out my back, but I got stomach cramps on stage 2 on one of my AQTs, and it cost me the stage. The reality is that cross legged is the most stable position and is the position I need to use so I just need to spend the time before the shoots to make it comfortable for my body.
Stage 3
If anything, I probably need to slow down a little on this stage. I still do the same two shots on a single breath for the first mag, and I do my mag change, take the third and transition. Again, if I'm really on my NPOA, I can get 3 in a single breath, but the third is probably an unnecessary time save. In the future, I'm going to stick to no more than pairs of shots on a breath.
Stage 4
This was my best stage all weekend. I really felt like I was on point and just took my time making sure that I had my NPOA every target. I still used rifleman's cadence, but I was willing to not use it if it felt off. Prescott told me that even on stage 4 that I should be able to use rifleman's cadence, and this was the first weekend that I truly believed him. So long as I really had my NPOA, it was no problem.
Instead of pursuit of perfection pursuit of good enough is my take
So I will start with my rifle it's a Kidd action and barrel with their two stage trigger (which I cannot recommend highly enough) and a vortex diamondback tactical 4-16 FFP and a Houge stock using SK standard plus maybe a Little over kill but good enough
So I will only go through the stages I have had problems with. and not all of my solutions are textbook examples
And this is just what works for me experiment with this information as you please
So for stage one I use a mostly standard position. i index approximately 70 degrees from the target. and get my sling really tight and pull about 2-3 inches of slack from my prone setting. and then pull it up cheek. The sling is tight enough for me to relax my support arm and the rifle to stay in a semi steady state without input from the trigger hand.
Stage two
I use the cross legged position
the only thing I really do differently is I index approximately 10 degrees from the target I found this really helps with my stability.
And these were the biggest challenges I had to overcome and this is what helped put me over the edge and also trigger control is absolutely vital I can't even begin to tell you how many times I throw shots this is probably the biggest challenge. And Practicing enough to the point that those six step happen like your just breathing to where you don't have to think about anything . Also don't overthink things go in without the idea of an ideal outcome tends to cool the nerves.
just my two cents and I wish you the best of luck in your journey
I only say pursuit of perfection because I'm going for a 250 score. I managed to pull off two 247 scores in the last AS so I think it's attainable.
I may have to grab one of the Kidd trigger groups and justify it by using my current one for my wife's rifle. Buahaha.
I definitely find that I need to pull my sling in a bit for standing and seated vs. prone which is why I like the quick adjustment on the Magpul sling. I still try to index 90 degrees from the target on standing, but I may try to see what it feels like to do less.
I have found that the better my flexibility, the fewer degrees I need to index because I can get down lower. I don't think that I can pull off 10 degrees so I'll have to keep doing my rifleman yoga.
I do agree on not overthinking things. I'm finding that the more I do this, the less I think about NPOA and other aspects and my body just does the thing. I still have a ways to go, but it's becoming more intuitive as time goes on.
What trigger weight is your 2 stage?
The pull weight is around 1lb maybe a little bit less I don't have scale to verify
Be sure to post on the forum when you do score that 250.it will happen persistence is key
Interesting post. I hardly ever practice stage 1. Instead I do 10 one ups probably 90 percent of the time. My reasoning is that this is likely the most important shot I'll need to make. After doing that for a year, my barely RM standard stage 1 went from a 42-43 to a 47+, even bagged a few 50's. Also great practice for centerfires. Now I just need to get back to practicing and training!
Something you might want to add is reducing your practice targets by 10 percent. Makes game day less stressful.
Hope I'm present WHEN (not if) you bag that 250 patch. Keep at it Brother.
Sometimes those last few points are the most expensive, as they require precision out of the whole system. This includes the rifle, ammunition and shooter.
Your rifle setup is near the best precision you can get from a semi-automatic blow back style rifle. Appleseed rifles do not need to be sub MOA to shoot a perfect score. The AS targets are huge compared to competition targets, so competition style rifles are not needed.
Try some Eley Tenex ammo. This is the preferred ammo of competition shooters. It's expensive, but when you are chasing a few points, you need all the consistency you can get.
The highest contributor to inaccuracy is the shooter. A good Creedmoor coat does add stability to positional shooting. This is why all of competition shooters use them. The Creedmoor pants only seem to assist in standing. The Stage 1 target are huge compared to competition targets, so they should not be needed to shoot a perfect score on this stage.
You should come down to a Parma event and ask Tim Oren to provide some coaching. Tim and Pat coach the local 4H program and have helped produced some National Champions. They know the advanced techniques for positional shooting that help to get those last few points.
My highest score is 244, and I have quit chasing the 250 patch, as I would need to upgrade my whole system
Before this shoot, I really wasn't sure if going for a 250 was reasonable. I had shot a couple of 240s, but there's a big difference between 240 and 250. I managed to shoot 243, 244, 246, and a pair of 247s so I think that it's doable, but like you said, those last few points are really hard to get.
I'll pick up some of that ammo and see how my rifle likes it. I need to put it in a sled and see how the ammo performs without the added error of the shooter. The CCI SV shoots well, but I don't know exactly how well.
It sounds like eert is able to help me out with the jacket (thanks Pat!) so we'll see how that does at the next shoot.
I'm definitely game for making a trip down there for a shoot. Is there a good shoot to look at? I'm thinking maybe the one in May if Tim's going to be there. I'd consider February, but the drive that time of the year can be terrible. If the weather looks good before the shoot, I might sign up last minute.
The few points your losing on which stage/stages are you losing them?
I'm consistently losing one or two from stage 1. I only cleared it once this past weekend. I cleared stage 4 pretty consistently. I think I was 5 out of 7 on that stage. Stage 2 and 3 are a bit of a mixed bag. I know that I need to slow down on stage 3 because I usually unload and safe my rifle before time is called. I think I need to practice getting into position more with Stage 2. If I take a little more time getting NPOA in that stage, I shoot the first magazine better which is usually where I miss, but I end up having to rush a little on the second target.
Seems like you have it figured out just a matter of doing it at this point
It is highly likely that the February shoot will be cancelled. It is just two weeks out and their are no pre-regs. It was an attempt at the Winterseed event, but you never know how the weather will be in SW Idaho this time of year. There could a couple feet of snow, or it could be sunny and 45F like yesterday.
You should probably reach out to Tim and check with him on his schedule. He is TimOren on the forums. He might give you some pointers to practice prior to the event as well.
I only have a 50 yard range available for position shooting at my club's rifle range. It is amazing how easy shooting an AQT at 25 meters becomes after shooting it repeatedly at 50 yards. Try it, practice perfectly, and don't let your thinking get in the way.
Are your recommended 3d printed parts open source? If so can we get a link to them? Thanks
Yes sir!
Magazine Caddy:
https://www.stlfinder.com/model/ruger-10-22-magazine-caddy-F4mv1csH/2076453/
Magazine Bottom:
https://grabcad.com/library/ruger-10-22-magazine-bottom-1
Thank you
My suggestions:
Kidd 2 stage trigger
Hasty sling for standing. You are un clipping anyway and yes it makes that much of a difference as you said it is stage one is where you are dropping points.
Shooting coat
Mantis system
I've been looking at the Kidd 2-stage triggers. I'll probably end up getting one, but I don't know if I'm quite ready to drop $400 on that trigger. Do you think it makes that big of a difference to go from a Timney to a Kidd? What weight do you suggest? 12oz? Maybe it'll end up being a birthday present to myself before the April 19th shoot.
I probably should go back to shooting a hasty while standing. I use to do it, but I've been lazy about switching slings. The loop sling does end up putting some weird torque on the rifle where the hasty seems to pull more straight back and down.
I'll be trying out the coat next shoot so we'll see how much that helps. I've never used one before so this will be a new experience for me.
I've also looked at the Mantis systems. Do you have a specific system that you suggest? There seems to be a lot of options with them.
Over a timney maybe not a huge difference but I don't have much experience with a timney 10/22 trigger but I do know the feel and quality is superior with the Kidd trigger and very adjustable. If you know someone with a Kidd I'd try one out if I were you. And in most cases I would say a Timney is good enough but your going for that perfect score there is nothing better than a Kidd trigger. So I think it would make a fine birthday gift to yourself and who knows maybe be that push over the edge you need.
Very interesting post!
Always enjoy discussions like these.
For what it's worth, stage one is typically my best stage and the one I have a lot of confidence in. If I were to shoot five AQTs I would get 2 or 3 50's and 2 or 3 49s.
My secret for success is: NPOA, Hasty Sling, Feet spread slightly more than shoulder width. After the load command I do steps one and two. I'm ready at the call to fire.
For me it is all about quickly getting into a rhythm and let the crosshairs or post wobble on and around the V-ring. Trigger squeeze and smooth follow through is critical. Call the shot. I follow up shot #1 within 5 to 10 seconds with shot #2.
Then I rest. To rest I drop my trigger hand to my side and with my support hand I let the rifle drop to shoulder height. The hasty sling takes the weight of the rifle. Two full, deep breaths will clear the eyes.
Bring the rifle up, do two more shots. I maintain this rhythm: Two shots, rest. Two shots, rest. etc.
I'm usually the last one to fire shot #10 in Standing. When I'm done there is typically 10-20 seconds left on the 2 minute clock.
For stages 2, 3 and 4 I simply do the best I can with what Appleseed has taught me. I sit cross-legged for stage 2. In stage 4 after 3 minutes I find prone very uncomfortable. Because...
...of my weight and flexibility. I turn 62 in April and I have been hauling around excess baggage for far too long! When I finish stage 2 feel like I just sprinted 100 yards. I like Stage 3 because I am only in prone for 65 seconds! To that end I'm well into a weight loss, exercise and stretching regimen. This year, stages 2 and 4 won't be so hard on me.
Like most of us I have not yet fired a 250 in an official AQT. I've done a couple in practice sessions.
I don't have an expensive rifle-but I have made some modifications to it. I use a Ruger 10/22 Sporter with 18" barrel. I installed a Ruger BX trigger and a bolt release. I did replace the extractor when the factory one proved unreliable after just five hundred rounds. when I first bought the rifle I took the action out of the stock and was horrified to see that it was rough as a cob and completely unsealed in the action and barrel channel. I sanded it out and with Brownell's steel bed I bedded the action and barrel. Any bare wood remaining after the bedding process was sealed with Tru-Oil. The rifle now shoots 1/4" groups at 25 meters with good old CCI Standard Velocity, with me prone and in the sling. For what it's worth I have a Nikon rimfire 2-7x scope on it. I like it set on 7x for 25 meter AQTs and Rimfire KDs.
Just my two cents.
In Liberty,
Gus
I learned how to shoot rifles at an Appleseed 25M. After shooting CMP Highpower matches for a couple years, I was able to manage 250 at an Appleseed KD.
I will say that with rimfire you're gambling with your ammo's consistency. Centerfire can be much more consistent especially if you handload. Although in the KD events you've got wind and zeroes to worry about.