A KD event is coming up later this year, and I'm in need of a new rifle. As I've started to shoot at Appleseed and transitioned into Instruction I have mainly focused on shooting rimfire. So much so I ended up getting into PRS22 competitions. However, as I mentioned, there is a 400 yard KD event coming up and I'm looking for a centerfire setup.
I do have a few AR platforms, but I honestly dislike shooting the AR with a sling. So I have a couple rifles I'm thinking about, and I wanted to see what everyone else was rocking for their KD events. What you might recommend and why.
Here is what I'm thinking, in no particular order.
- Springfield Armory
Loaded 6.5 Creedmoor - Probably won't go this route cause I don't want a precision stock, because of the height of the forearm over the grip itself.
Standard - If I go the M1A route, I would probably just pick up the standard issue. - Ruger Mini-14
Just the standard Ranch, I know they did a target years ago, but there's no listings for them anymore. I would also not be interested in the mini-30, as I would prefer to just stick with the 5.56, rather than bump up to the 7.62. - M1 Garand
This is going to be added to my collection at some point, I'm not sure if I want to pull the trigger on one right now.
What are you using? What are other options I might consider.
If you want an M1 Garand sooner is better than later. I would want at least a Service grade.
If you order an M1 somewhere on the form put, "I would like a shooter please." Rifles ordered with this request have gaged same or better than the rifle I picked out over a decade ago.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on May 04, 2024, 07:18:03 PMIf you want an M1 Garand sooner is better than later. I would want at least a Service grade.
If you order an M1 somewhere on the form put, "I would like a shooter please." Rifles ordered with this request have gaged same or better than the rifle I picked out over a decade ago.
I agree and am planning on picking up a Garand sometime this year, just not sure if I want it right now, and for the KD event. I don't know, should I consider it? When I do grab the garand, I want it in 30-06. The ammo is a little more expensive and not as many options, plus the 308 has a little less felt recoil for all-day shooting. But I believe that, 30-06, is the original caliber for the Garand, and what is needed for some CMP matches.
For the KD rifle, I would like to stick with a 5.56, but 308 and 6.5 are on the table for options in the rifles I'm currently looking at. 5.56 is my first choice as I already have a lot of it, lower recoil, and I prefer to limit the number of cartridges I own.
I'm not as knowledgable in this area, so please correct me on any misunderstandings.
PPU/Privi Partizan makes good M2 Ball (.30-06) in good brass to reload.
CMP currently does NOT have en bloc clips for the M1 Garand!
The Mini-14 to me is over priced for what it is. Ruger mags are the only ones I know of that work and cost 3-5 times the price of an AR mag.
I have worn bi-vocals since I was 9 so iron sights and I don't get along the best so I have never been a fan of the M1A due to the cost and extremely high mounts needed to scope it.
Based on what you said I would pick the AR you are least adverse to putting a marksman style sling on and start practicing positions. There is a reason the AR dominates service rifle competition.
The center fire KD is the second easiest COF in Appleseed. 100 yard rimfire KD is the easiest, then 25m AQT, 200m RFKD is the hardest.
I will gladly answer your questions or point you to someone who can.
Chuck
It is very hard to better an AR chambered in .223/5.56 for a known distance shoot.
I've shot at two KDs this year and have done quite well. Since I'm revving up for Camp Perry next year I shot my AR service rifle. It is topped with an 1-4x scope. Ammo choice for KD at both Temple and Fort Bliss has been handloads featuring 62 gr Hornady FMJs and a medium charge of 748. With me in sling and lying on the ground it is a 1.5 moa set up. With the 77 gr match bullets groups shrink sub moa. These will be what I use at Camp Perry next year. Possibly at Talladega as well if I can manage a trip to Alabama in the spring.
My son shot with me at Fort Bliss and he favors a bolt action in the form of a Ruger American in 5.56. It loves 68 grain loads and takes AR magazines. With it he qualified with a Rifleman score and also got the cold bore shingle. If you're looking for something different from an AR a bolt action is something to consider.
Love that you're considering a Garand! I have one and it's a shooter.
Good luck at your KD!
In Liberty,
Gus
I don't recommend a Mini 14.
They are great rifles, for what they are intended to do. That is not precision.
To make mine a sub-MOA shooter took:
Accuracy Systems harmonic barrel stabilizer with adjustable gas block. $235.
Accuracy Systems advanced trigger job (3.5 lb pull) with trigger pad. $130
Accuracy Systems recoil buffer and power spring. $33
Hand loading with a year of testing.
Then, you have to make decisions about scopes, because the stock sights can't do a KD. Period.
So, do you want to try to run Tech Sights?
(still won't work well for a KDAQT)
If not, you'll need to figure out a scope system.
After two years of testing, I landed on an Accuracy Systems 7.25" scope rail $90
With an Aim Sports 2-7 long eye relief range finder reticle. $80.
Interesting story about the scope. Discovered it by accident. They claim 8.5-10" eye relief. They lied. It's about 6", which combined with the Accuracy Systems scope rail made the PERFECT cheek weld. Sometimes you get lucky.
Oh, yeah, then there's the scope rings. Plan on another $130 for the correct Warne rings. Medium height. The cheaper ones (even the Less expensive Warne) are too short and the scope adjustments drag on the rail.
Oh, wait, then there's the sling.
Now, I can tell you with no hesitation that Tech Sights' 1" OD Green cotton sling for the Mini is just as good as a 1.25" milspec cotton. I have used it on several other rifles in CMP competitions - it is THAT good. The sling clip for the butt stock is, however, very whelming. It works, but I'm not sure how much tension it could take if you're capable of using full tension in standing hasty.
So after a lot of rambling, my point is that while the Mini 14 is a great platform for reliability (and a pleasure to shoot), you could buy two match grade AR's for the same cost as turning ONE Mini into a match grade or KD AQT gun.
In the end, I built a crazy stupid accurate Mini 14, mostly because I'm crazy, and maybe a little bit stupid. And I like wood.
Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling? I couldn't think of difference between AR and other rifles for sling use? Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.
Quote from: Timothy_D on May 05, 2024, 02:17:57 AMI don't recommend a Mini 14.
They are great rifles, for what they are intended to do. That is not precision.
To make mine a sub-MOA shooter took:
Accuracy Systems harmonic barrel stabilizer with adjustable gas block. $235.
Accuracy Systems advanced trigger job (3.5 lb pull) with trigger pad. $130
Accuracy Systems recoil buffer and power spring. $33
Hand loading with a year of testing.
Then, you have to make decisions about scopes, because the stock sights can't do a KD. Period.
So, do you want to try to run Tech Sights?
(still won't work well for a KDAQT)
If not, you'll need to figure out a scope system.
After two years of testing, I landed on an Accuracy Systems 7.25" scope rail $90
With an Aim Sports 2-7 long eye relief range finder reticle. $80.
Interesting story about the scope. Discovered it by accident. They claim 8.5-10" eye relief. They lied. It's about 6", which combined with the Accuracy Systems scope rail made the PERFECT cheek weld. Sometimes you get lucky.
Oh, yeah, then there's the scope rings. Plan on another $130 for the correct Warne rings. Medium height. The cheaper ones (even the Less expensive Warne) are too short and the scope adjustments drag on the rail.
Oh, wait, then there's the sling.
Now, I can tell you with no hesitation that Tech Sights' 1" OD Green cotton sling for the Mini is just as good as a 1.25" milspec cotton. I have used it on several other rifles in CMP competitions - it is THAT good. The sling clip for the butt stock is, however, very whelming. It works, but I'm not sure how much tension it could take if you're capable of using full tension in standing hasty.
So after a lot of rambling, my point is that while the Mini 14 is a great platform for reliability (and a pleasure to shoot), you could buy two match grade AR's for the same cost as turning ONE Mini into a match grade or KD AQT gun.
In the end, I built a crazy stupid accurate Mini 14, mostly because I'm crazy, and maybe a little bit stupid. And I like wood.
You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.
Depends on the AR. A1 configurations are fine, but some modern adjustable stock QD locations are really awkward.
If you're in a "compliance" state like California, one of the best stock options is a Thordsen, but its QD location is ergonomically horrifying, I ended up changing to one that mounts at the buttstock toe.
Quote from: AJ Gonzales on May 05, 2024, 03:11:10 PMYou don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.
True, but a bone stock 580 or newer Mini is a 2-4 MoA gun on a good day depending on your ammo. And the sights are really bad. Tech Sights help out to maybe 300 yards.
Anything older, forget it. Once that barrel gets hot, barrel whip will sling the bullets 8 or more MoA without a barrel brace.
Quote from: Herme on May 05, 2024, 02:03:22 PMJust curious for the dislike of AR with a sling? I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use? Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.
My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.
I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.
Michael - look into a NY compliant stock
Quote from: Nightpoison on May 05, 2024, 08:00:33 PMQuote from: Herme on May 05, 2024, 02:03:22 PMJust curious for the dislike of AR with a sling? I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use? Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.
My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.
I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.
Quote from: Timothy_D on May 05, 2024, 03:24:17 PMQuote from: AJ Gonzales on May 05, 2024, 03:11:10 PMYou don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.
True, but a bone stock 580 or newer Mini is a 2-4 MoA gun on a good day depending on your ammo. And the sights are really bad. Tech Sights help out to maybe 300 yards.
Anything older, forget it. Once that barrel gets hot, barrel whip will sling the bullets 8 or more MoA without a barrel brace.
Wait till you figure out the MOA standard for the M14...
Archer, not arrow.
For score, I'll take an AR. Mine's a fairly generic build bought from another instructor. Scoped, and deliberately heavy with 3 full 'cheese grater' Pic rails on the fore-end so it balances sort of like my favorite to shoot...
A 1976 Springfield M1A match build. My eyes are not what they once were, so I'm running a Vortex scout scope instead of irons. (I'd have a Garand, but I'm a lefty shooter. Tried a friend's once, learned why everyone shot right handed in WWII.)
Both fed with handloads. The M1A likes it hot, 168 gr SMKs or Noslers with a near max load. Brutal on the brass but accurate. The AR (and my wife's, which is a custom light weight build) are happy with 55gr HPBTs with a middle of range load.
Quote from: AJ Gonzales on May 05, 2024, 10:51:13 PMWait till you figure out the MOA standard for the M14...
Archer, not arrow.
The archer needs a good bow, good arrows, and practice to be consistent.
Think of it this way, Morgan's Rifleman weren't
really using period mil-spec, were they?
You have a wonderful problem. Adding the to the collection always has me second-guessing on what to buy. I gave up on the notion that one anything can solve a problem. If all I have is one, it will fail and now I have none. The applies to vehicles as it does firearms. With that in mind, what can the budget afford usually helps thin my choices. I have been blessed with a very understanding partner in shooting. She embraces the firearms purchases and usually expects me to buy 2 of something. She likes having her own. Again, that limits choices most of the time for me.
So, to answer the question of what do I shoot most for KD? AR10- 24" fluted, stainless, with a brake. I prefer 168g ammo. This lets me buck wind and put the rounds where I want them. I run a lot of other firearms at KD events and keep returning to the AR10. It is topped with a Vortex. I had to give up iron sights over a year ago. I use 10-round mags exclusively. Someday I might give irons on the M1A or Garand a chance again.
I have seen other people be successful with a lot of different rifles. Stock AR15-A1 configurations, SKS, AK47, M1, M1A, SCAR, bolt-action <Mossberg, Remington, Savage>, fully customized AR platforms, mini14, and stuff I don't remember. It can be done if you are proficient with what you have and it is capable of 4MOA shooting with you running it.
Good luck on your decision. We all look forward to hearing what you selected, why you did, and how it worked at the event.
Geek
Quote from: Nightpoison on May 05, 2024, 08:00:33 PMso getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock.
It's kind of hard to diagnose stuff like this over the interwebs. Supposing you are a righty, your left elbow is not really supposed to be under the gun. It should be just to the left of the rifle and yes the magazine will bump into your left arm. The M1A and Mini 14 are exactly the same as the AR in that respect.
A lot depends on body type, but when people have issues with the prone position, it's typically that they are on their stomach, their shoulders are squared up to the target line and they are on their elbows. Not saying this is your issue, but it's what I see often.
I have not shot a KD Appleseed, but if I was going to do that I would use an AR as they are the most accurate & ergonomic rifles (even more so with a collapsible stock) I own.
Here are some images showing proper body positioning. Hope these help.
Prone 1.png
Prone 3.png
Prone 4.png
Prone 5.png
While the core teaching of Appleseed in the marksmanship department is functional, fundamental marksmanship in that a rack grade rifle, any time, anywhere; a rifleman can score effective level hits in the rifleman's quarter mile is true, one needs to pay attention to what is a rack grade rifle and remember that the 4 MOA standard is the shooter and the rifle as a combined system.
A 5 MOA rifle combined with a shooter who can shoot a benchrest-like 0 MOA on his end will yield a 80% hit rate in our 4 MOA target, assuming an even distribution, thus qualifying.
A 2 MOA rifle, which is what I would consider rack grade, would allow 2.5 MOA from the shooter for qualifying, and 2 MOA for perfect.
I would submit that the first one is less fun than the second one. The simple answer to what is your KD rifle of choice, for me, is a rifle that you find fun. It is a rifle with which you can qualify, and a rifle with which you can realize improvement. It is a rifle that has a sighting system that is repeatable with meaningful adjustability and with which you can execute the rifleman's challenges of target identification, range estimation, and see some flora for wind estimation. Most importantly, it is a rifle with which you can feel effective, as it will get you out to the range, both on your own, and with Appleseed shoots, more than a rifle that you both do not like and do not like your results. Lastly, it is a rifle which will give you meaningful data. It is easier to track improvement from 4 MOA groups to 2 MOA groups than it is to improve from 8 MOA to 4 MOA (provided you are the same shooter, and simply shooting a better rifle) as you will have to provide a refrigerator box to find your shots in the latter configuration (while shooting at range).
I find there is a sweet spot for a KD rifle that is effective, but not too effective with high price or fragility. I own a Mosin-Nagant. I will try to qualify with it, but I will also bring another rifle. Were I to go with the Mosin as my only rifle as a student to a KD for the first time, I would be frustrated. On the other hand, I don't need a PRC rifle either.
"You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD."
YUP!
Good ammo (that you gun likes), practice, good rifle. Everything don't need to be expensive or fancy.
A 20in standard model Palmetto State Ar is what I shoot the most, scope x4 Monstrum with adj AO (100$), Irons stock A2 GI with a shim and a smaller peep for my 65year old eyes (believe it's a White Oak 75$). Ammo 62gr Wolf HP or 75 gr Hornady Steel Match.
Go to the range with a plan and shoot your plan. Make sure you are giving your shooting 100% of your concentration. Stop when your concentration slips. Take a break or go home. Don't fall into the I'll just shoot up this last x amount of ammo. Your brain will remember the last 25 rounds of crap you threw down range not the 200 great round you did before.
H
If your aversion to ARs is the pistol grip and stock, have you seen the FightLight SCR lowers/rifles? They seem super expensie but it's a niche market.
Haven't tried one, so can't speak to the reliability of that buffer system, but it seems neat.
A couple other things have come to my mind in the past few months.
1. The magazine itself. For any kind of prone shooting other than "mag-podding", my long arms and I use twenty-rounders (and similarly sized rimfire mags, see my profile photo), but a flush-fit ten-rounder's floorplate could be a usable support-hand position for whomever it fits, especially combined with SCR-style lowers where the trigger is often rearwards of milspec.
2. LOP. To get correct (NTCH) turkey-neck on my ARs, I use an A2 stock or a fully-extended M4-style stock. I know you need less LOP than I do - so you do collapse your stock down a few clicks, right? If your nose isn't touching the charging handle then you definitely have room to make this adjustment (and adjust your scope to the correct position).
I love (and prefer) the M1 Garand. As long as your eyesight is good enough to bring the front sight blade into focus, and your target line has adequate backers so that you can distinguish the silhouette from the background, I'd take the M1 Garand anytime. And .30-06 will have fewer issues than a .308 conversion.
I've been shooting the M1 since the early 1990s when I got my first one from the DCM. My "shooter" is on its third barrel (you can expect a Garand barrel to maintain pretty good accuracy for several thousand rounds. I waited a bit long the first time (~7k rounds) before replacing mine due to expanding groups. 5k rounds is probably a better estimate of barrel life.
If you do get an M1 Garand, here are my recommendations for reference books:
I think every Garand owner should have the owner's guide, at a minimum:
M1 Garand Owner's Guide (https://www.amazon.com/M1-Garand-Owners-Guide/dp/1888722037)
Baumgardner's book is out of print but well worth finding a copy, as it has tips and tricks to make the M1 more accurate. Several of these are pretty simple and don't require any special tools:
Precision Shooting with the M1 Garand (https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Shooting-Garand-Roy-Baumgardner/dp/193122014X)
The shop manual has very detailed information on parts, dimensions, and tolerances as well as proper function, and is very helpful in troubleshooting. It also has detailed information on regulating the sights. This book includes the M14/M1A as well as the Garand:
U.S. .30 Caliber Service Rifles Shop Manual (https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Caliber-Operated-Service-Rifles/dp/B0006F5XOW)
There are many others, mainly collector-oriented references that enrich your understanding of the rifle's history. But the above are the references I recommend specifically for a "shooter".
Note: The Duff and Kuhnhausen books are also available for the M1 Carbine.
Note on Photo: June 6, 2021 (D-Day!) - my first Rifleman score after back surgery (all my Rifleman scores have been with the M1). I use this target as a teaching aid for NPOA. Guess which silhouette in Stage 4 I failed to reacquire and confirm NPOA? Cost me 24 points, and thus a possible distinguished score.
Before I turned 40: Colt SP1 circa 1977 production.
After I turned 40: Colt A4 w/Leupold Mk5 HD or a Colt 6940 w/ACOG
I put together a rifle using an Anderson lower and upper with Anderson parts kits from the LGS. Used a 20" Anderson barrel, Samson hand guard, A2 stock, Leupold Freedom 1.5-4x20, and USGI sling. Shooting PMC X-Tac 5.56 55gr, because that is what it liked best of the factory ammo I tested, and it worked. I shot 43/50 hits count at our KD in August. My kid medaled at the CMP New England games in September with it in the Service Rifle GSMM event, Modern Military Unlimited. He shot 276/300 (needed 275) and I wound up with a 274 with two misses standing because I am an idiot.
Using the 1.5-4x20 set at 4x at 400 yards at the KD was a challenge for me, I would have liked more magnification. I picked up a 20" Green Mountain (Conway, NH) barrel on sale this past summer and over the winter will get a lower, upper and bcg from Matrix Arms (Claremont, NH) and another Samson (Keene, NH) handguard for a new KD rifle. Will likely add a Vortex Diamondback 3-9x40 or 4-12x40 and the Magpul SL stock.
IMG_8590.jpg
Quote from: codyClemonade on October 09, 2024, 08:47:17 AMIf your aversion to ARs is the pistol grip and stock, have you seen the FightLight SCR lowers/rifles? They seem super expensie but it's a niche market.
Haven't tried one, so can't speak to the reliability of that buffer system, but it seems neat.
I'm interested in exploring this option when it's time for me to graduate from rimfire and get a new rifle. I'm in CA, so I'm thinking this might be a good featureless option.
M25 Enhanced Battle Rifle
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7416/11694519535_6026dcfeaf_b.jpg)
Quote from: Nightpoison on May 05, 2024, 08:00:33 PMQuote from: Herme on May 05, 2024, 02:03:22 PMJust curious for the dislike of AR with a sling? I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use? Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.
My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.
I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.
Have you considered any of the modern ranch-type rifles based on AR-type actions? I started a thread on the topic with a few different models I have questions about. My main reason is most AR features are banned here, so pistol grips are out, but these designs might also help with your ergonomics issues. Here is the thread. https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=68849.0
Back to the original thread question posed:
224 valkyrie with 88g hand loads, 24" barrel. Aka, the laser beam. Slightly different holds needed with BSZ vrs 556. 100% no need to twiddle knobs. This would be my go to. Secondary would be 6.5 grendel. I'm old and don't want to tote around a heavy AR10 all day.......
I've been haunting the M14 forum lately looking at M21/M25 builds.
Quote from: DEH on November 08, 2024, 07:36:45 PMM25 Enhanced Battle Rifle
(https://i.imgur.com/6XMBuJ1.jpeg)
Thanks for the link, while they are an interesting option, they do not look good. Haha. Anyone sell the receiver/stock separate? I wouldn't be opposed to building one out with my own parts if that is even an option.
Quote from: Fulcrum on November 20, 2024, 04:42:17 PMQuote from: Nightpoison on May 05, 2024, 08:00:33 PMQuote from: Herme on May 05, 2024, 02:03:22 PMJust curious for the dislike of AR with a sling? I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use? Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.
My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.
I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.
Have you considered any of the modern ranch-type rifles based on AR-type actions? I started a thread on the topic with a few different models I have questions about. My main reason is most AR features are banned here, so pistol grips are out, but these designs might also help with your ergonomics issues. Here is the thread. https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=68849.0
One other option I've been looking at is the mini14, but with an Accuracy Systems upgrade. It seems like a lot of happy customers and they offer a number of conversions; 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 5.56 NATO, 6.5 Grendel, 6MM ARC, 22ARC, 22 NOSLER
I would prob go with a 223 Wylde or the 224 Valkyrie.
Quote from: Nightpoison on November 21, 2024, 08:41:45 AMThanks for the link, while they are an interesting option, they do not look good. Haha. Anyone sell the receiver/stock separate? I wouldn't be opposed to building one out with my own parts if that is even an option.
The only one that sells the lower receiver and stock on its own and is compatible with most AR uppers is FightLite. They sell the SCR lower/stock alone, and you can add whatever upper you like. You can also swap out the stock for any Remington 1100 stock with some work. Here's a link to the lowers: https://fightlite.com/lowers/scr-rifle-lowers
To me, this is one of the most attractive options of the 4 I mentioned in my other thread, because of the compatibility with other parts, and you could really build it out the way you want. Of the other 3, where the whole system is proprietary, the CMMG seems the best, based on reviews.
Here's a video review of the SCR where the guy actually swaps out the included upper receiver for others he owns in other calibers and shoots various ammo types. So it really demonstrates that capability. Kind of cool. He does it mostly bench rest style, so it doesn't show how the ergonomics work with sling shooting, and maybe there are concerns about that.
I will be attending a KD at Puyear TN in October, I plan to run my M1A,with an AR 15 BUG.
USA Defense AR-15 ,with 1911 eagle grips in 6.5 Grendel.
Also a What Would Stoner Do ,retro M-16 build in 22 ARC with a 3-9 Mil-Dot scope and an extra 22LR conversion.
My first successful KD was with an M1A, and I still love it. If your eyesight will support it, it's a great option. The Garand is, of course, very similar. I think the only extra challenge with the Garand is that it doesn't have the shoulder brace, so recoil may be a bit more challenging. That said, plenty of people have done it.
There are pros and cons to any platform. I've worked a number of KD events and just speaking at a very high level - the AR-15 type rifle tends to be a little flatter shooting for most people, although this has a lot to do with the height over bore. The .308 type rifles are generally not as bothered by the wind as much, which may or may not be a consideration.
Just my $0.02
I guess an update is in order. I attended my first KD a few weeks back. Ended up 46/50, earning my patch.
All I had was my AR build. Wasn't comfortable, but it got the job done.
^:)^
Well ,the KD is upon us. Got my M1A back from Springfield. Replaced the mainspring guide with a SADLAK NM and the spring as well. Shimmed the gas block about .030. Did a little bedding on the stock. Replaced the rear sight aperture with an .052 NM and bedded its rails to remove any slop. Polished the trigger and hammer engagements and got the pull to about 4.5 lbs. I think its about as good as a STANDARD MODEL is going to get. WE SHALL SEE.....looking forward to Saturday, if your coming to Puryear, I ll see ya there. :snipersmi :F ^:)^
Good Luck this weekend. It appears you've done quite a bit of work to that M1A. I've seen some videos on youtube on how to accurize a standard M1A. The videos make it look easy. How easy/difficult was it?
I'm looking forward to your report on this!
Out of curiosity, what load/ammo do you plan on using?
Gus
Not hard at all if it runs like it should. THe Main spring guide comes off when you field strip it so replacing it is just putting the other one it. same with the main spring. Shimming the gas block was simple enough. I measured the gap with feeler gauges and stacked shims close to that and then adjusted after initial fit, then put it all back together. THe difference was huge, it took all the slop out of the front of the stock where it goes over the stock ferrule. This way the gun is not "floating" around in the stock. the plastic stock has no actual stock liner, so i built it up with some glass bedding. The totality was a significant increase in the overall accuracy. Well worth the work and not much money. The trigger work was just polishing the contact points with a soft stone and some jewelers rouge and lapping compound.
Ammo, I Normally run nothing but my own handloads, but I didnt have enough loaded for this event so I ordered some Saltec Swiss Precision ammo. Tested it out and it runs well and is very accurate. Not what i like but it will do. I am still bringing a box of 100 handloaded precision rounds for the 400 yard. Ive used these rounds out to 750 with great results.
I think you'll have a great time at the KD. Most of the participants will be running AR-15s I'm guessing, so, be prepared for a lot of questions about your M1A!
Good Luck and I'm looking forward to hearing all about your weekend.
If I may offer a couple bits of advice:
1. Write down all your DOPE. Especially if you are going to use different ammo for the 400 yard target.
2. Wind calls. Your .308 is much better in the wind than, say, 55 gr 5.56 ammo. But if wind is full value at 15-20 mph, it'll drift your .30 cal bullets out of the black. Please review and heed Fred's Simplified Wind Rule: "If the wind is strong enough you are concerned about it, hold into the wind 3 MOA at 300 yards and 5 MOA at 500 yards" Of course this also means 4 MOA at 400.
In Liberty,
Gus
LOL.....with my old man eyes, I may end up on an AR 15 myself, taking a scoped AR as BUG. but i am making every effort to successfully shoot it with the M1A! :snipersmi
Well Gus, I ran the M1A day one and hit Morgans shingle. By the end of the day, it was clear that I wouldnt be successful with the iron sights and my vision so today i caved and ran my AR, Out the three AQTs today I scored a 41 and a 43 so overall it was great but I would like to have done with the M1A. Maybe after LASIK....... :DH: ^:)^
Nice!
I'm glad you gave it a go with the M1A.
And congratulations on a couple of fine scores!
In Liberty,
Gus
I'm tempted to run a FAL. I have an ARS build (West German Parts kit on an Imbel Receiver) that is about 1.5MOA with Gold Medal Match ammo. However it only cycles Gold Medal Match ammo.
IDe love o run one with an FAL, if its finicky bout ammo, you might try the SALTECH swiss match, SGAmmo has it and its pretty awesome, the only down side is its only 147 grain.
I know this is an older thread recently brought back. Now that I'm thinking 25M rimfire this has me thinking KD too. But I really don't like recoil. So as much as I would LOVE to have a Garand that is off the recoil chart for me. I'd have to stick with something in a .2xx caliber. Is a semi-auto required? preferred? helpful? I'd also like to have an old school fixed stock AR with the carry handle and wood furniture. Anyway, for someone totally, yes, totally clueless, recommendations of rifle, sighting system, ammo, stuff I don't know enough to even ask? :)
If recoil is an issue, idE run an AR Platform, I ran the last one day one with M1A and while i loved running it, IT was clear by the end of the day I wasnt going to qual with iron sights, my old man eyes are just not up to it, so day two i ran an AR with a scope. I think a semi auto is to your advantage, im not saying you cant do it with a bolt gun or something else, but with the mag changes/reloads and the position changes throughout the course of fire, the semi autos save a lot of time and seconds count on the timed events.
Best sources for an AR and best choices to look into?
The AR is so over the top, BEST is a matter of opinion. if you want one that will shoot well and work for this event without going broke, IDe say PSA is the best option. IF you want something a little MORE< ide buy a kit from M&A parts and build it on any decent quality lower. IF you want OVER THE TOP< go buy a DANIEL DEFENSE>
Magazines? Are shorter magazines more user friendly, especially if prone? How many rounds are needed for a KD? Is policing brass allowed to have once fired for reloading? What's a good but not most expensive on the shelf ammo? I'd be saving up and getting a "store bought" rifle and ammo to start with. I was born with two left thumbs so I don't build my own. ::)
I prefer 20 round mags as for me the 30 round mags are too long. Brass collection is range dependent but usually allowed.
I've shot KD successfully with reloads, Eastern European steel cased, Wolf steel cased. I would recommend commonly available M193 or any commercial .223 55 or 62 grain. No need to go fancy.
Your other question can be answered here:
https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/
A little down the page are the downloadable guides for known distance, etc.
Once you've shot your 25m event, you'll have a better idea what you need in a centerfire rifle. The strings of fire are exactly the same, just at actual distances instead of simulated.
So yes, 10rd magazines will be better, particularly in prone. 20s aren't too bad, though, and may be easier to find. At least two. Having one that's a different size than the others will help when it comes to stages 2 and 3.
Policing brass is common. Unless the range has some rule against it (rare, but not impossible) the desire of shooters to collect their brass is generally taken into consideration at some point. I know I save mine.
I do recommend a magnified optic of some kind. I don't know about you but I don't see as well as I used to. 6 or 8x is plenty for most folks.
No fancy ammunition required. I've qualified with 55gr 223 Remington and I've qualified with 75gr fancy stuff. As long as it's not garbage (like reloads done by someone who doesn't know what they're doing) you should be able to perform with just about anything. Make sure you get enough of the same brand, and lot if possible, to get you through the weekend. 300-ish rounds for a two-day event.
The whole idea is to use standard equipment and solid skills.
To paraphrase Maximum Ordinate, Rack grade rifle + standard commercial ammo + rock solid fundamentals = hits on target out to 500 yards
As TNPatriot pointed out, a Palmetto State Armory AR platform is plenty good enough for most people's needs. They're a perfectly viable option, especially for a person's first AR, at a very reasonable price point. That company was founded with one primary purpose in mind: to help put affordable AR-15s in the hands of every law-abiding American. That's a worthy goal. Keep an eye on the Palmetto State Armory Deals (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=69081.0) thread on our Deals and Steals board. And please, use the links provided. The program gets a modest kickback from purchases using those links.
My lat shoot i used 20 in the beginning but they were too light and wouldnt drop free. IT was costing me time so I switched to 30 metal mags so they would drop free. It doenst seem like much, but on a timed event it can cost you rounds and thats points off your score. After that event I installed a BAD lever because loading in prone I had to come out of position to hit the ping pong paddle. Now, with the BAD lever I dont have to reach over the weapon or change position to drop the bolt. All of those little things add up on time.
Quote from: LDB415 on January 01, 2026, 11:36:49 AMI know this is an older thread recently brought back. Now that I'm thinking 25M rimfire this has me thinking KD too. But I really don't like recoil. So as much as I would LOVE to have a Garand that is off the recoil chart for me. I'd have to stick with something in a .2xx caliber. Is a semi-auto required? preferred? helpful? I'd also like to have an old school fixed stock AR with the carry handle and wood furniture. Anyway, for someone totally, yes, totally clueless, recommendations of rifle, sighting system, ammo, stuff I don't know enough to even ask? :)
I've seen your many posts with questions about your .22LR rifle for your first 25n event and now questions about centerfire rifles for a KD. I love your enthusiasm and all of the questions! It's great you are asking, and I asked a lot of questions before my first event too.
One thing I tend to do though when I first start something new is to dive in, and before I've done the first step, I'm already thinking about the next step, and the next, and the next... I've made some mistakes that way by getting ahead of myself and buying things before I have the experience to make a better decision. I've had regrets, because with a limited budget, I can't really afford to buy things I don't need just because I got excited and over-enthusiastic.
How soon is your 25m event? And have you purchased everything you need for that? You might want to attend that event, get your rimfire setup dialed in, see how it works and if you want to make any changes, see if there are any lessons learned, and get that experience under your belt before actually buying a centerfire rifle and optics, etc. for a future KD. There may even be shooters there with their centerfire rifles, and you can take a look and ask questions about their setups. Also, a full 400yd KD is not necessarily the next step after a 25m event. If there is one in your area, you can also attend a 200yd Rimfire Known Distance (RKD) using the same rimfire rifle you are setting up for your 25m event. I'm looking forward to doing that myself.
Anyway, I'm just throwing it out there for your consideration. Have a great time with your Appleseed events and setting up your rifle(s)!
Yes, all good points and pretty accurate. I tend to jump in feet first. But I do plan to wait a while on the "getting" phase. Not so much, obviously, on the "inquiring" phase. And disliking heat about as much as recoil my April 25M may be my last outdoor adventure until late October or November when some events look interesting. I'm also hoping Hempstead schedules more in the interim as it's definitely more conveniently located.
That sounds like a great plan to me. I love asking questions too.
I already have purchased a rifle I will use for a 400yd KD, even though there are none scheduled locally, I'm not sure when I'll have the opportunity, and I'd like to do the 200yd Rimfire KD first. So I'm a little ahead of myself! But the timing of my purchase was more related to availability of the gun, which doesn't come into stock very often, and not that I felt like I was ready to use it at a KD. I bought it because it was finally in stock. And the type of rifle I bought might not be an ideal KD rifle, but I had other considerations, and this gun is not just for shooting a KD.
I bought a Fightlite SCR. It's a rifle that takes AR15 uppers, but the lower has a traditional rifle stock. The reason I chose it is I'm in a state with restrictions on semi-autos with removable box magazines, and they have to be "featureless". That means no adjustable buttstocks, which it sounds like you prefer. But it also means no AR-style pistol grips, so people comply by adding fin grips or other odd grips to their ARs. Even though an AR is probably the recommended KD rifle, I don't like the weird accommodations on the grips that I would have to do to make it legal. Instead, I went with this traditional rifle stock as my solution. We will see how it works. Like I said, this is not just for KDs, but I can't afford a bunch of rifles, so it will be what I use if I attend one. Shoot what you have!
I'm not in a position to recommend this rifle for a KD, because I've only barely test fired it, and I haven't fully set it up yet or tried any Appleseed techniques. But here's a link to help explain what it is. https://fightlite.com/scr-16-fdmt
Quote from: Fulcrum on January 02, 2026, 06:10:30 PMThat sounds like a great plan to me. I love asking questions too.
I already have purchased a rifle I will use for a 400yd KD, even though there are none scheduled locally, I'm not sure when I'll have the opportunity, and I'd like to do the 200yd Rimfire KD first. So I'm a little ahead of myself! But the timing of my purchase was more related to availability of the gun, which doesn't come into stock very often, and not that I felt like I was ready to use it at a KD. I bought it because it was finally in stock. And the type of rifle I bought might not be an ideal KD rifle, but I had other considerations, and this gun is not just for shooting a KD.
I bought a Fightlite SCR. It's a rifle that takes AR15 uppers, but the lower has a traditional rifle stock. The reason I chose it is I'm in a state with restrictions on semi-autos with removable box magazines, and they have to be "featureless". That means no adjustable buttstocks, which it sounds like you prefer. But it also means no AR-style pistol grips, so people comply by adding fin grips or other odd grips to their ARs. Even though an AR is probably the recommended KD rifle, I don't like the weird accommodations on the grips that I would have to do to make it legal. Instead, I went with this traditional rifle stock as my solution. We will see how it works. Like I said, this is not just for KDs, but I can't afford a bunch of rifles, so it will be what I use if I attend one. Shoot what you have!
I'm not in a position to recommend this rifle for a KD, because I've only barely test fired it, and I haven't fully set it up yet or tried any Appleseed techniques. But here's a link to help explain what it is. https://fightlite.com/scr-16-fdmt
That's an interesting rifle! I've never seen or heard of it until now. It's definitely unique and fills the needs and requirements you are governed by.
I'm wondering if (m)any Ruger Mini-14's are used for KD as that's a rifle I'd like to have but can't justify yet. I especially like the 50th anniversary model with all wood furniture. But I think they're known for less ideal accuracy so probably not the best choice to have a chance at a patch. I'm looking forward to hearing updates when you've given your new rifle a workout. Congrats on getting something you've been wanting.
Quote from: LDB415 on January 02, 2026, 06:39:19 PMThat's an interesting rifle! I've never seen or heard of it until now. It's definitely unique and fills the needs and requirements you are governed by.
I'm wondering if (m)any Ruger Mini-14's are used for KD as that's a rifle I'd like to have but can't justify yet. I especially like the 50th anniversary model with all wood furniture. But I think they're known for less ideal accuracy so probably not the best choice to have a chance at a patch. I'm looking forward to hearing updates when you've given your new rifle a workout. Congrats on getting something you've been wanting.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to getting it set up and trying it out more thoroughly. The SCR is in a class of rifles that some refer to as "ranch rifles", and they are one way that people in "ban states" can have a compliant semi-auto rifle with a removable box magazine by having a traditional stock. Others are the CMMG BR4, Sig MCX Regulator, Foxtrot Mike Ranch Rifle, and a few others. I've never heard of anyone using any of these for an Appleseed, so in interested in seeing how well it works and will definitely report back.
The Mini-14 is the original ranch rifle and is the rifle the others I mentioned take the term from. I have talked to a few people about the Mini-14, and they pretty much say it's a fun rifle and has a nice Garand-style nostalgia, but it's not great for Appleseed. It's not accurate enough. One of the people at one of the 25m events brought his Mini-14, and he did qualify using it, but he said he had spent more money upgrading it than the rifle had cost originally, and it was a labor of love, not a practical thing to do. He did not recommend going the route with the intention of qualifying.
I figured that from further reading. That's ok. I can get a good level AR plus scope for no more than a Mini-14 bare. That's the sensible route to go.
It will be interesting seeing what you think of your new rifle. I'll admit I'm thankful to be in a pink state though.