Im doing a RFKD in October. Ive completed ~5 or 6 25m events with irons on my 10/22. Id like to try irons for the KD as well but I dont know that Ill have the range of adjustment required with tech sights. I reach out to them and there response is below.
"The TSR200 rear sight has approximately 35MOA elevation adjustment on the rear sight, and approximately 20MOA elevation adjustment on the front sight. The rear sight will have approx. 45MOA of windage adjustment.
This is assuming the 10/22 has the standard barrel length of 18-1/2"."
I can tell the way my irons are setup now im not dead center with windage, so I would be limited in one direction. Im guessing because of my head position on the stock. but also dont want to have to play with both front and rear sights to get the amount of adjustment I need.
I do have the viridian scope that came with the 22 and if it is recommended I use that, is that sufficient for a RFKD or should i upgrade a bit? I see theyre for sale on the appleseed website, but didnt know if anyone has any issues with them and would recommend to get the most out of the KD upgrading it.
Thanks
Hi Irons2
I am almost as interested in the answers to this as you are. There are a lot of absolutes in RFKD and some variables. Its those variables that get all the interesting answers. So lets dig in.
First there are two types of RFKD that Appleseed runs. We do both 100 yard and 200 yard. Check the event you are going it. If it is a 100yard event, then you are good to go. I did it years ago with tech sights and was fine. You can even do hold overs at that distance. If its a 200yd event well maybe.......
Here come those variables I was talking about. First can you see clearly at that distance? Personally, I can't focus well enough on my front site to make those shots anymore. 53 and the eyes are shot.
Lets assume you can see that far. Holdovers are very hard at that distance and in some cases just not possible. Nothing to hold on but a tree. So you have to adjust the sights. With a 50 Yard zero you will need to come up between 20 and 30 MOA. Again, lots a variables, ammo speed, barrel length, but plan for 20 to 30 MOA. Most normal 22 sights wont come up that far and you have to use a combination of adjustments and holdovers. Again variables if you have a really good scope with lots of adjustment then you don't have to do a holdover.
There you go. If you can adjust up 20 to 30 MOA from a 50 yard zero your sights should be good. If not you may have to adjust other ways.
Steve
As ScubaSteve said, is it a 100 yard or 200 yard RFKD, and where is it taking place? What ammo do you plan on using and how high are your Tech sights over bore? Is your barrel the typical 18 1/2" in length?
Assuming you can see the target with iron sights (I can't even at 100 yards), then it should be possible to make the adjustments using only the rear sight. Choosing the zero will also be an issue. Of course, adjustments with a scope are a lot easier and faster.
Not a simple question, as there are a lot of moving parts here. Give us some detail and we can refine the answer a bit.
Jonesboro IN Deer Creek Conservation Club of Grant County. Looking at a satellite image it looks like theres a potential for 200 yd when I measured it out, but I havent reached out to confirm.
Not sure on height over bore for the tech sights but they are just standard. Yes its the 18-1/2" barrel.
Ammo i used at my last event was cci copper plated round nose 40 gr 1200 fps. Honestly I feel like writing them a letter because I didnt have one malfunction and others had a pile of misfires on their mats ^:)^ .
My eyes arent horrible, but even at the 25m event the 400m targets were just a red haze ball, no definition whatsoever. I have some full size targets, maybe ill go out and hang one and just pace it off and see how it looks. That could give me an answer right there.
I dont want to get into holdovers. If im zero'd at 50 I would then need to adjust to the limits to figure out how much adjustment I have available and hope that the conditions are within that. Like I said when I just look at my rear sight I can tell if theres a stiff left wind Ill run out of adjustment quick as its almost to the left limit now.
Any idea on the capabilities of the viridian since it sounds like thats the way im heading?
Quote from: Irons2 on April 30, 2024, 02:32:49 PMJonesboro IN Deer Creek Conservation Club of Grant County. Looking at a satellite image it looks like theres a potential for 200 yd when I measured it out, but I havent reached out to confirm.
Not sure on height over bore for the tech sights but they are just standard. Yes its the 18-1/2" barrel.
Ammo i used at my last event was cci copper plated round nose 40 gr 1200 fps. Honestly I feel like writing them a letter because I didnt have one malfunction and others had a pile of misfires on their mats ^:)^ .
My eyes arent horrible, but even at the 25m event the 400m targets were just a red haze ball, no definition whatsoever. I have some full size targets, maybe ill go out and hang one and just pace it off and see how it looks. That could give me an answer right there.
I dont want to get into holdovers. If im zero'd at 50 I would then need to adjust to the limits to figure out how much adjustment I have available and hope that the conditions are within that. Like I said when I just look at my rear sight I can tell if theres a stiff left wind Ill run out of adjustment quick as its almost to the left limit now.
Any idea on the capabilities of the viridian since it sounds like thats the way im heading?
I will be at that event and look forward to seeing you. We have a 25M event there this weekend. I will be planning out what the range looks like for the RFKD. I am hoping we can get enough width to do 200. The range does support 200-yard distances. I will be figuring out what the firing line will look like to make that happen. Regardless of what I learn this weekend, plan on it being a 200yd RFKD.
I was at a RKD a few years back that was 200 yards and we had a family of 3 shooters with tech sights. When we moved from 100 yards to 150 yards. All 3 ran out of elevation for dialing. The Shoot Boss was Master Instructor Morpheus and he quickly IAOed. He had the shooters do the math. Then he posted a target that many inches above the first one. So, they kept the 100 yard setting and aimed at a target that was actually above their target and the rounds dropped on in. Then we did it again at 200 yards. So, they had 3 targets stacked on top of each other that was about as tall as me, but all the rounds went into the bottom target. It was brilliant. The man is a genius.
I like simple and easy. I'd just mount the scope - especially if you had problems seeing the 400yd target at 25m.
Quote from: scuzzy on April 30, 2024, 03:54:33 PMI like simple and easy. I'd just mount the scope - especially if you had problems seeing the 400yd target at 25m.
I agree 100%. Morpheus's idea was a great in the field remedy for a Shoot Boss, but I'd recommend to just go to a scope.
https://store.rwvaappleseed.com/scopes.html (https://store.rwvaappleseed.com/scopes.html)
Quote from: Geek on April 30, 2024, 02:57:20 PMQuote from: Irons2 on April 30, 2024, 02:32:49 PMJonesboro IN Deer Creek Conservation Club of Grant County. Looking at a satellite image it looks like theres a potential for 200 yd when I measured it out, but I havent reached out to confirm.
Not sure on height over bore for the tech sights but they are just standard. Yes its the 18-1/2" barrel.
Ammo i used at my last event was cci copper plated round nose 40 gr 1200 fps. Honestly I feel like writing them a letter because I didnt have one malfunction and others had a pile of misfires on their mats ^:)^ .
My eyes arent horrible, but even at the 25m event the 400m targets were just a red haze ball, no definition whatsoever. I have some full size targets, maybe ill go out and hang one and just pace it off and see how it looks. That could give me an answer right there.
I dont want to get into holdovers. If im zero'd at 50 I would then need to adjust to the limits to figure out how much adjustment I have available and hope that the conditions are within that. Like I said when I just look at my rear sight I can tell if theres a stiff left wind Ill run out of adjustment quick as its almost to the left limit now.
Any idea on the capabilities of the viridian since it sounds like thats the way im heading?
I will be at that event and look forward to seeing you. We have a 25M event there this weekend. I will be planning out what the range looks like for the RFKD. I am hoping we can get enough width to do 200. The range does support 200-yard distances. I will be figuring out what the firing line will look like to make that happen. Regardless of what I learn this weekend, plan on it being a 200yd RFKD.
Im looking forward to it. This will be my first KD. See you there.
Scope it is.Thanks fellas.
Ok then. Their NRL22 range is 200 yards, and as Geek said, let's assume it is a 200 yard Rimfire KD. A typical height over bore with Tech sights is between 1" and 1 1/4". (For a more exact height over bore, look at this page: https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/tips--tricks/tech-tips/tech-tip-sight-height-calculators/.) We'll assume 1 1/8".
The 200 yard Rimfire KD target is 12 5/8" wide, and 9 1/4" tall, half the size of a full-size KD target. That sounds big, but at 200 yards, it should look like the bottom row (Stage 4) of an AQT. And at 50, 100 and 150 yards, it looks like Stages 1, 2, and 3, respectively, on the AQT. Only you can decide if you can see well enough to give that a try.
CCI provides their muzzle velocities out of a 24" vise mounted test barrel, so your actual velocity will be higher (around 5 fps/inch - 1227 fps). Using your CCI copper plate ammo, and assuming the average temperature, etc. for Jonesboro in October (yes, I am a nerd about these things), the following would be good working assumptions:
Zero 50yd Drop/MOA 100y D/MOA 125y D/MOA 150y D/MOA 200y D/MOA
27 yd (25m) 0.5"/ 1.0 7.3"/ 6.9 13.8"/ 10.6 22.8"/ 14.5 48.5"/ 23.2
50 yard 0.0"/ 0.0 6.2"/ 5.9 12.5"/ 9.5 21.2"/ 13.5 46.4"/ 22.1
100 yard +3.1"/ +5.9 0.0"/ 0.0 4.8"/ 3.6 11.9"/ 7.6 34.0"/ 16.2
150 yard +7.1"/ +13.5 +7.9"/ +7.6 +5.2"/ +3.9 0.0"/ 0.0 18.1"/ 8.7
I don't use iron sights, but you will note that you can keep the MOA adjustments well below the 35 you have in your rear sight. However, once you zero, the real question is how much adjustment do you have left? As you will note, a lot depends on the zero you choose.
But after all that, I would agree with scuzzy - mount the scope. It is so much faster and easier.
As far as the Viridian scope goes, I've never used that model. All the ones I see in the Appleseed shop are Vortex Crossfire II's, not Viridian. You should be able to look up the amount of MOA adjustment available in the Viridian scope manual and then you could tell if it would be adequate.
Everyone note before you rake me over the coals - I find this stuff fascinating and had a great deal of fun figuring it out. Ballistics calculators are my friend!
One comment.
You said you have the viridian scope that came with the rifle. Yes I agree with all the instructors, Mount that on the rifle and go zero it.
Having said that once you zero it I would bet you a coke that you won't have enough dial left to dial all the way up to the 200 yard target. Usually, the scopes that come with rifles are not all that high end and don't have a huge amount of travel. Don't worry greatly if you cant dial all the way to 200. Thats what Appleseed instructors are for. They will help you.
If you truly just need to make it work you can buy a 20MOA rail. I would mount the scope and check it before buying one but if you need another 20MOA a rail will do that for you for around $40.00. That should get you where you need to go with almost any scope.
Steve
Here is the viridian. They dont specify MOA range. Reached out and they should be sending it.
https://viridianweapontech.com/eon-rifle-scope-3-9x40-with-rings
Heres the scope i was eyeballing upgrading to. almost 4x the adjustment range of the irons
Impact per click 0.52 in/100yd
Impact per click 0.50 MOA
Elevation range 126 in/100yd
Elevation range 120 MOA
Windage range 126 in/100yd
Windage range 120 MOA
Found a friend with a Viridian 4-12x42. It has 50 MOA elevation adjustment, so you might want to see how much yours has. Turn it one way until it won't turn any more, and then see how many MOA you get when you turn it the other way until it stops. You will have about 1/2 that in adjustment up and down, assuming a zero MOA rail.
Who makes the scope you are looking at? Typically scopes that adjust in 0.5 MOA clicks are not of the same quality as those that adjust in 0.25 MOA clicks (but there are exceptions). And with 120 MOA of adjustment, that's huge, and usually very expensive.
Quote from: Yates on April 30, 2024, 05:35:09 PMWho makes the scope you are looking at? Typically scopes that adjust in 0.5 MOA clicks are not of the same quality as those that adjust in 0.25 MOA clicks (but there are exceptions). And with 120 MOA of adjustment, that's huge, and usually very expensive.
https://meopta.store/products/meopro-optika6-1-6x24-rd-ffp?_pos=6&_fid=3da5d88f6&_ss=c
Also liked the fact of the zero stop on this one
I've never used a Meopta scope, but the reviews are pretty good. Most seem to like the glass a lot. It is illuminated and has a zero stop, which is a plus, but it lacks parallax adjustment, which in my book is a negative. The turrets seem rather high for a small scope, but that's personal preference. I would try and get my hands on one to "feel" it out before I bought if possible.
Full disclaimer - I'm very partial to Vortex and Athlon, with their "no ask" life-time warranties. Click on Support - Warranty Info on the Meopta website. Nothing comes up.
Yeah I have another meopta scope and couldnt be happier with the "in hand quality check". Main things I liked about this was compact (other than the turrets), first focal plane, zero capability, and simple reticle. I'm okay paying a little more for meopta based on my other scope. I'm different than most guys in that I transfer scopes between guns rather than having one on each gun. This will fit the bill for a lower end scope as the other I have is much higher power. Feel like each time I need to set a gun up for something it forces me to tinker and dial in if I have to transfer a scope or adjust sights.
Now looking more into parallax adjustment, coming from the irons world, how critical is to have the target in complete focus and can you get that with first focal plane? I was thinking first focal would be more critical in ranging being sure the integrity of the reticle is maintained regardless of magnification. Have to apologize for the basic questions. This will be my first true deep dive into scope function.
Appreciate the feedback.
Quote from: Yates on April 30, 2024, 04:19:37 PMOk then. Their NRL22 range is 200 yards, and as Geek said, let's assume it is a 200 yard Rimfire KD. A typical height over bore with Tech sights is between 1" and 1 1/4". (For a more exact height over bore, look at this page: https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/tips--tricks/tech-tips/tech-tip-sight-height-calculators/.) We'll assume 1 1/8".
The 200 yard Rimfire KD target is 12 5/8" wide, and 9 1/4" tall, half the size of a full-size KD target. That sounds big, but at 200 yards, it should look like the bottom row (Stage 4) of an AQT. And at 50, 100 and 150 yards, it looks like Stages 1, 2, and 3, respectively, on the AQT. Only you can decide if you can see well enough to give that a try.
CCI provides their muzzle velocities out of a 24" vise mounted test barrel, so your actual velocity will be higher (around 5 fps/inch - 1227 fps). Using your CCI copper plate ammo, and assuming the average temperature, etc. for Jonesboro in October (yes, I am a nerd about these things), the following would be good working assumptions:
Zero 50yd Drop/MOA 100y D/MOA 125y D/MOA 150y D/MOA 200y D/MOA
27 yd (25m) 0.5"/ 1.0 7.3"/ 6.9 13.8"/ 10.6 22.8"/ 14.5 48.5"/ 23.2
50 yard 0.0"/ 0.0 6.2"/ 5.9 12.5"/ 9.5 21.2"/ 13.5 46.4"/ 22.1
100 yard +3.1"/ +5.9 0.0"/ 0.0 4.8"/ 3.6 11.9"/ 7.6 34.0"/ 16.2
150 yard +7.1"/ +13.5 +7.9"/ +7.6 +5.2"/ +3.9 0.0"/ 0.0 18.1"/ 8.7
I don't use iron sights, but you will note that you can keep the MOA adjustments well below the 35 you have in your rear sight. However, once you zero, the real question is how much adjustment do you have left? As you will note, a lot depends on the zero you choose.
But after all that, I would agree with scuzzy - mount the scope. It is so much faster and easier.
As far as the Viridian scope goes, I've never used that model. All the ones I see in the Appleseed shop are Vortex Crossfire II's, not Viridian. You should be able to look up the amount of MOA adjustment available in the Viridian scope manual and then you could tell if it would be adequate.
Everyone note before you rake me over the coals - I find this stuff fascinating and had a great deal of fun figuring it out. Ballistics calculators are my friend!
I wonder, if we could backout dimensions for a 20 MOA wedge under the rear tech sight, if I could have my father in law machine a wedge to place under the rear sight with extended screws? Would this require me to zero in at 50 yds then figure out what my available range of adjustment remaining is (count clicks up down) then determine what additional angle i would need to stay in range of expected drop (based on calcs above). Maybe it is 20 MOA, maybe its 15 or 30?
At least to bring as a test. I could always bring a backup rifle with a scope, or just change on the fly if needed assuming I setup a 200 yd target and can see it (still to be determined).
Viridian adjustment range is 60 MOA
I've never done it with iron sights, but have with scope rings. And obviously a 20 MOA rail does the same thing for scopes. Somewhere I have the thickness needed and I'll try to find it for you. It definitely should be possible, and one may even be commercially available. You would then have 55 MOA available in the rear, and that should get there with a bit to spare. Note, however, that you have now raised your sights so you may have to make your cheek riser higher as well, though as I recall the difference is very small.
Your process should work, and I might even try it zeroed at 100 yards. I'll see if I can work out the math, but actually shooting it would obviously be the real test.
The Viridian sounds like it has enough range of adjustment. The glass may not be as good, but you wouldn't have to buy a new scope.
I just noticed that I didn't address your parallax question. At shorter distances under 100 yards, parallax really isn't much of an issue. But as you go out, it can become a problem with precision marksmanship. It's more than having the target in complete focus, the reticle actually moves as you adjust your cheek weld if the reticle and the target image are not on the same focal plane. It looks really weird and can be disconcerting at long range. These articles show and explain it far better than I can:
https://shootingmystery.com/parallax-adjustment/
https://www.targettamers.com/guides/rifle-scope-parallax-adjustments/
Parallax adjustment is available on first focal plane scopes too, and I would agree that having the reticle adjust with the magnification is important for precision (all mine are first focal plane).
I've never done this with iron sights, but I don't know why the math wouldn't be the same as with scopes. What we want is something that will make the rear sight 20 MOA higher than the front sight.
So think of our IMC circle - the sight radius of the rifle (distance between the front and rear sights) is the radius and we want to know the arc distance created by a 20 MOA angle. The circumference of a circle is 2*pi*R, so the length of an arc in a 1 degree angle would be:
2*pi*(Sight Radius) / 360. And divide that by 60 to get 1 MOA. An example:
(I don't know the sight radius of a 10/22 with Tech Sights, but I would guess around 22".)
2*pi*22"/360 = .383972 for 1 degree, or .0064 for 1 MOA.
You want 20 MOA so multiply by 20 = .128" for the shim thickness to get 20 MOA.
Your sight radius is probably different, but just substitute that in the formula above and that should get you very close.
Quote from: Yates on May 01, 2024, 04:46:16 PMI've never done this with iron sights, but I don't know why the math wouldn't be the same as with scopes. What we want is something that will make the rear sight 20 MOA higher than the front sight.
So think of our IMC circle - the sight radius of the rifle (distance between the front and rear sights) is the radius and we want to know the arc distance created by a 20 MOA angle. The circumference of a circle is 2*pi*R, so the length of an arc in a 1 degree angle would be:
2*pi*(Sight Radius) / 360. And divide that by 60 to get 1 MOA. An example:
(I don't know the sight radius of a 10/22 with Tech Sights, but I would guess around 22".)
2*pi*22"/360 = .383972 for 1 degree, or .0064 for 1 MOA.
You want 20 MOA so multiply by 20 = .128" for the shim thickness to get 20 MOA.
Your sight radius is probably different, but just substitute that in the formula above and that should get you very close.
Well thanks for cranking out the math for me. So Ill get my gun set back up for irons, check to see if i can even see a full size target at 200 y, go to the range and see if i can zero at 100 (if not 50), determine how much adjustment I have remaining, use your above formula and expected drops to see where im at, back out a shim height for the rear sight and circle back to see where im at shooting at 100 yds. Might take me some time to get this all sorted out, but ill update when I have more info. Appreciate all the help and input.
My pleasure. As you can tell, I love this stuff. And don't forget that the 200 yard Rimfire KD target is 12 5/8" wide, and 9 1/4" tall, half the size of a full-size KD target. That sounds big, but at 200 yards, it should look like the bottom row (Stage 4) of an AQT. Let me know how it goes.
The problem with this, is the same as the problem with shooting an old style AR15-A1 at multiple distances. The sights are not really designed for keeping track of elevation adjustments. It's a hokey system that is fine for a combat rifle.
The easy way is to put a target at 25 yards, assuming you are already zeroed for that. Draw a vertical line up through the target. Measure up 6 inches from the center of mass of the target and mark that.
Now see if you can adjust your sights to put your group 6" high. If you can't, it's unlikely you will have enough elevation, unless you adjust your sight picture.
If you use a ballistics program like Applied Ballistics, they have drag curves for many brands of .22LR ammo. You just need to ask it how high you will hit at 25 yards, when you are zeroed at a longer distance.
With 1/4 minute sights, each click at 25 yards will equal .26 inches.
For me with SK Long Range Match it looks like this.
200 yards...........5.8" high @ 25yards (22.25 minutes up)
150 yards...........3.6" high @ 25yards (13.75 minutes up)
100 yards...........1.5" high @ 25yards (5.75 minutes up)
50 yards........... zero
25 yards........... zero
We have had multiple shooters qualify with iron sights at 200 yard events in Maryland. Two of us used bolt actions (I used a CZ-455 military trainer with graduated ladder sights, another guy used a Savage with globe sights). Several people tried to qualify with LTRs using Tech Sights. We did an interview with a couple of guys who worked out how to make it work with TSR200s in this post: https://www.mdshooters.com/threads/200-yard-rimfire-appleseed-liberty-training-rifle-challenge.261072/
While Bill and Jim didn't quite make it that shoot, Bill scored a 46 and a 41 the following year with the exact same set-up to earn his patch! He and I also both hit Morgan's shingle with irons at the 2022 event - that was fun.
I think it is a worthy goal. I don't have the best eye sight and have contact lenses. We all practiced a lot and did a lot of prep.
https://centextacticalgear.com/usgi-m203-grenade-launcher-rail-mounted-leaf-sight-picatinny-rail-grabber/
MAHA
Can someone walk me through the course of targets (time distance position etc.) with a RFKD?
So a typical 25m you have your red coat, squares, more squares, practice aqt (transitions/timing), then an aqt. All obviously at 25m, but you start to introduce "distance" and timing with the aqts...I guess the red coats too.
For known distance, once you make adjustments you are only timed for that stage? Then allowed to make adjustments for the next? Is this in your prep time?
Also help me understand the scoring. a 46 and 41 are rifleman compared to a 25m 210, 230/240, and 250?
Im sure its somewhere and no need to reiterate it, but if someone can find a link for me to look through. Just wondering if we start on a squares at 25m for the first day that will kind of throw a wrench in the plans. Or if majority of shooting will be 50, 75, 100 yds on.
For the 200 yard rimfire, same as the AQT in terms of positions and timing but at 50 (standing), 100 (transition to seated), 150 (transition to prone), 200 (prone). We do Morgan's Shingle at 125 - one shot cold bore. 100 yard RKD would be 25, 50, 75, 100.
It is "Hits Count" in the black with 200 yards counting double (or shot twice). So scores are out of 50 because we are not looking at 4s and 5s. A 50 would be a 250 (but doesn't qualify for a 260 patch). You can earn Rifleman and Distinguished patches (irons or scope) if you shoot a qualifying score (in the manual).
You make sighting adjustments at the end of the string (before we make the line safe) or during prep. Just don't do both (it has happened...). For folks with irons, I have typically waited till I get a thumbs up from them because it can take longer than with scope. You should probably just adjust from the prior stage but some people go back to their 50 yard zero and up to the next stage - that take much longer and I think introduces more error but YMMV. However, if you get lost during the day, you may end up off paper at the further distances, so you need to concentrate and take a lot of notes.
The difference between zero at 25 and 50 with a 22 is actually quite small and predictable. We print a 50 yard square with 1 MOA grid to zero. We then do a vertical squares target to test tracking and sufficient elevation to 200 yards with different boxes for typical SV and HV ammo. Then we practice at each distance and collect DOPE. Then we shoot one or more RKD AQTs. This is just the shooting portion - there is instruction, history, and other stuff as well.
I did another write up on RKD with irons here: https://www.mdshooters.com/threads/200-yard-rimfire-iron-sights-challenge.239009/#post-5678072
My two cents buy a 20 MOA rail. I'm partial to EGW but Kidd and DIP are all about the same price.
As the gentleman from Maine pointed out tech sights are hard to keep track of where you are when making adjustments.
Pick your path and follow it. A Rifleman persists!
Step 1:
based on the dimensions given of 9-1/4" x 12-5/8" for RFKD target, i scaled that in half to hang at 100y. Those are the targets on the right. 6 o clock hold on top target (seemed just as fuzzy as stage 4 at a 25m event) and landed on target below that.
moved to the AQT on left, 6 o clock hold on stage 1. had a known flyer to the right.
i think this would be good enough to give irons a shot.
Step 2:
now I just to look into where im at with adjustments and figure out where ill need to be for KD.
Quote from: Irons2 on May 23, 2024, 02:23:10 PMStep 1:
based on the dimensions given of 9-1/4" x 12-5/8" for RFKD target, i scaled that in half to hang at 100y. Those are the targets on the right. 6 o clock hold on top target (seemed just as fuzzy as stage 4 at a 25m event) and landed on target below that.
moved to the AQT on left, 6 o clock hold on stage 1. had a known flyer to the right.
i think this would be good enough to give irons a shot.
Step 2:
now just to look into see where im at with adjustments and figure out where ill need to be for KD.
Interestingly enough, the Stage 1 target on an AQT is the same size as the 100 yd KD target, which is what you created. And it should have looked exactly like a stage 4 target. What you created was a 1/4 scale full distance target. So at 100 yards, it would look like stage 4, which is a representation of a full distance target @ 400 yds (1/4 scale at 1/4 the distance).
Thus at a 200 yard KD, the target is 1/2 scale of a full size target, but you are at 1/2 the distance. So it should look like stage 4 again. Of course, things get a bit more fuzzy with distance, but otherwise it should look the same. So I think you should be able to at least see the target, just as you did at 100 yards.
Now only ballistics and wind are in your way. It is certainly doable. (PS - watch dragging wood. There is definitely some horizontal stringing going on, or it could have been the wind.)
Yeah I noticed the side to side of the impacts. Literally on lunch break got there, threw everything out, waited for the line to go cold, ran down, hung the target, came back, ripped 5 off, borrowed someones spotting scope, sent 5 more, threw everything in the truck and left. I would expect it to tighten up a bit, but it couldve been the wind I guess.
I did get to introduce appleseed to a couple older gentlemen who were there though. They had a lot of questions when i laid my mat down between the shooting benches, didnt have a scope, and put the sling around my arm. They asked if i was shooting nationals. Told them I was trying to get an event at the shooting club in the near future.
I forgot to drop an update for the distance. While at the range for the 5/4-5 25M event, I checked out the options for RFKD. We WILL be shooting 200y for the Jonesboro, IN Oct 12-13 event.
I get wanting to use irons, because "DA** IT! I'm not that old!", but...
Except for rings, this'd get you set up nicely at not a bad price really.
Nice Vortex scope at a good price. (https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-4-12x40-ao-rifle-scope.html)
20 MOA EGW Rail. (https://www.opticsplanet.com/egw-ruger-10-22-picatinny-rail-scope-mount.html?_iv_code=KK-T8-RUG10-46102&_iv_cant=20-moa-1)
Quote from: Irons2 on April 30, 2024, 01:09:32 PMIm doing a RFKD in October. Ive completed ~5 or 6 25m events with irons on my 10/22. Id like to try irons for the KD as well but I dont know that Ill have the range of adjustment required with tech sights. I reach out to them and there response is below.
"The TSR200 rear sight has approximately 35MOA elevation adjustment on the rear sight, and approximately 20MOA elevation adjustment on the front sight. The rear sight will have approx. 45MOA of windage adjustment.
This is assuming the 10/22 has the standard barrel length of 18-1/2"."
I can tell the way my irons are setup now im not dead center with windage, so I would be limited in one direction. Im guessing because of my head position on the stock. but also dont want to have to play with both front and rear sights to get the amount of adjustment I need.
I do have the viridian scope that came with the 22 and if it is recommended I use that, is that sufficient for a RFKD or should i upgrade a bit? I see theyre for sale on the appleseed website, but didnt know if anyone has any issues with them and would recommend to get the most out of the KD upgrading it.
Thanks
Irons2,
I did a lot of rimfire KD shooting this year in Idaho where I had the luxury of time and space. To be sure this was all unofficial, I was by myself and was able to take my time, make adjustments and stay relaxed. I did follow the time rules for Standing, sitting, rapid prone and slow prone. Because of this thread I wanted to see for myself how doable this was.
In short, it is very doable to score well with an open sight (Tech Sights) 10/22. I did a side by side comparison of two of my Liberty Training rifles. A 18.5" Basic Ruger 10/22 with the TSR100 rear sight and a 22" 10/22 with the TSR200 rear sight.
For what it's worth I'm 61 years old and recently got a new pair of glasses! I am still able to see iron/open sights quite well.
I had two targets going at the same time. I did a 100 yard KD first and scored 44/50 with the Basic 10/22 and 45/50 with the 22" 10/22. I went with CCI Mini Mag RN for both rifles. Both rifles like it and it's about 175 fps faster than CCI Standard Velocity. I have a lot of confidence in CCI ammo. All my 10/22s like it and it seldom malfunctions in a clean, lubricated rifle. For all my KDs I fired 50 rounds.
Since I had good come ups for 50 and 100 yards, the 200 yard KDs progressed quickly. At 150 yards everything was fine for both rifles. I prefer the six o'clock hold.
And then, at 200, the TSR100 equipped 18.5" 10/22 front sight ran out of elevation-it was bottomed out-and my group at 200 was about a foot low. My work around was to hold at the top of the target frame and let the bullets drop into the black. It almost worked. I guess the front sight obscured the target and I missed several a bit left and right. Scored a 39/50.
The TSR200 was just fine. With the front sight bottomed out, I had plenty of elevation on the rear sight to stay with my six o'clock hold. But, just so you know, by the time I got to 200 yards, the TSR200 only had another few clicks in it! On the first attempt with the 22" I scored a 41/50. On my second attempt with the 22" I put it all together and managed a 50/50. There was one shot in the upper left that only nicked the black, but, a nick it is. I fairly floated back to the camper that day! It was very unofficial, but it made me happy just the same.
Another thing about the TSR200: On mine, I had to hold the rear aperture with my left thumb and forefinger when using the elevation adjustment tool with my right hand. In this way the adjustment would actually raise the rear aperture in height. Otherwise mechanism was simply spinning around and not elevating. I don't know if all TSR200 sights do this, but mine does.
So, and this is my opinion, the TSR200 rear sight and CCI Mini-Mags are the way to go when shooting a rimfire KD with open sighted Liberty training rifle.
BTW, my 'firing line' was my truck bed! The Snake River Plain of southern Idaho had a lot of moisture in the spring and how the grass did grow. I needed to get above that so, the truck bed served me well!
Good Luck in your October KD!!!
In Liberty,
Gus
Thanks for the info gus. As you said sounds like it should be doable. I talked my rifleman buddy into switching to irons for the rfkd and we went out this morning to try it out at 100y. He laughed when he saw the sight picture at first but ended up having decent groups after a few magazines. Same with me. I'm confident my eye sight and irons won't be the issue, we should do well.
Looking forward to a new set of instructions and challenges.
Desert_diver can weigh in on this, having successfully completed a 200y RKD this very weekend with an iron sighted bolt action rifle.
Irons2,
It's definitely a challenge to shoot irons at a 200 yd RKD, but it is not impossible. Gus's comment about using a 6 o'clock hold is good advice. I used a COT hold, which made getting the right sight picture difficult. My front sight post is 6 MOA, just the width of the target at 200 yds - anything wider would have been quite difficult
Your fundamentals (NPOA, 6 Steps, and SHFs) have to be great. I got humbled on a few of the AQTs, which was excellent motivation.
I recommend the challenge.
Thanks,
Desert_Diver
Irons2,
One additional thought. Depending on the backer color, the paper Morgan's Shingle could be very difficult to see. Take every opportunity to study the target line prior to shooting the shingle so you have a sense of where to look.
Desert_Diver
Another thing I forgot to try before is a hood over the front and rear sights. Ive had to do this before at 25m events in low or bright light conditions and it helped tremendously. When we shot just this past weekend it was overcast and I was having trouble focusing. Tried to up the size of the rear aperture from #4 to #6 to see if that would help but it didnt.
Quote from: desert_diver on October 01, 2024, 12:16:10 AMIrons2,
One additional thought. Depending on the backer color, the paper Morgan's Shingle could be very difficult to see. Take every opportunity to study the target line prior to shooting the shingle so you have a sense of where to look.
Desert_Diver
Thanks for the heads up, thats a good point. My buddy and I had questions on what everything will look like and trying to think of things to bring to prepare. Much appreciated.
Update:
Had a blast at the RFKD this past weekend. The shingle was no joke with no backer but I managed to hit it. We had little to no wind impact as it tended to be blowing from behind us. My highest AQT score was 36/50. Unfortunately on that one I did have a jam which cost me 4 rounds on stage 2 :slap: . The following AQTs I only got worse and Im not totally sure why. I would follow my DOPE but it would be off by a few MOA and typically off the target and not scoring. Two times I had this happen. One time I figured I was aiming low but the data was good so Ill maintain my DOPE. Onto the next stage and still low (like I missed a few clicks...but man I was paying attention when I adjusted). The second time I said I must have missed a couple clicks like last time so Ill adjust back to what should be zero on what I just shot and then continue my come up to the next stage.....still low. I managed to bring it back to a 31 for the last AQT. But Im going to cycle through the adjustments and distances a few times up and down and see if it happens again and see if I can figure out why.
Learned a lot. I have a paragraph of prep to do before the next RFKD. Reminds me of my first 25m, once I figured out what it was and what I was doing I prepped for a month before my next event and rifleman'd my first AQT. I feel Ill do much better my next time around.
Appreciate all the input and I did have plenty of adjustment in my sights. I never even touched the front one.
- After thinking about it more, we would get dope in prone but I would shoot the AQT in seated. Do you think that could make a difference? Sight picture "should" be the same, but even off by a hair translated to 100y would be a couple MOA. I dont know, any suggestions?
Sounds like you did a great job - congrats! In my experience, at 100 yards you will see a difference in the zero prone versus seated. About 1 MOA lower in my case, but of course your mileage may vary. Take it out to the range and see.
Quote from: Irons2 on October 01, 2024, 02:42:08 PMAnother thing I forgot to try before is a hood over the front and rear sights. Ive had to do this before at 25m events in low or bright light conditions and it helped tremendously. When we shot just this past weekend it was overcast and I was having trouble focusing. Tried to up the size of the rear aperture from #4 to #6 to see if that would help but it didnt.
I use rear sight inserts to adjust the amount of light & let me focus on the front sight clearly. I also like to size the hole in the rear sight so it's slightly bigger than the front globe to help with sight alignment.