One day...hopefully in the far away future...CMP will be completely sold out of ammo. And they won't get anymore, EVER!!
:'(
What then? What's the next best thing for an M1 to chew on and spit out? Is there anything made for the garand that isn't match?
J
Today, buy HXP from CMP. It's the best bang for the buck.
Save the Brass.
In the future, reload the saved HXP brass. (but start buying components today when you find them at good prices. )
Federal 'American Eagle' in the red and dark-blue boxes. 150 grain full metal jacket. Save your brass of course.
Do NOT feed your M1 commercial hunting ammo if you can help it, especially the heavier bullets (180 and up). The powder burn speed in much of this stuff is a bit slow for the M1's gas system and creates too high a pressure at the gas port hole and beats up the rifle. You just don't know what's used in most ammo.
So who sells that stuff? How much do they want for it?
I think I saw some "Hot shot" 30.06 the other day. Not sure if it was even brass cased.
J
I once fired three rounds of commercial (I think Winchester) 30-06 150 grain in my Garand - somebody gave them to me and I just wanted to "make some brass". On the third round the extractor came out of the bolt, followed by the ejector and ejector spring.
DON'T SHOOT COMMERCIAL 30-06 HUNTING AMMO IN A GARAND. I was very lucky - usually something like this bends the op rod.
M2 Ball (150 grain) is loaded to +/-2800 fps. Commercial 150 grain hunting-type 30-06 is loaded to 2940 fps.
Or buy one of the adjustable gas plugs (I have Schuster) in mine but I can't remember the name of the other company that makes them. The adjustable gas plug allows you to vent off excess gas at the gas cylinder so your rifle won't be damaged by the wrong powder burn rate or heavier bullets.
Then, when you reload that brass specifically for your M1 you can install the standard GI gas plug.
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16377&cat=0&page=1
Federal is now cataloging a Garand specific load. Same stuff they've been making for the CMP Garand matches at Camp Perry. Should be showing up in some stores soon.
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=federal+ammunition&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.federalcartridge.com%2F
AE3006M1 30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm) 150 / 9.72 Full Metal Jacket American Eagle®
I have heard that Hornady is supplying the ammo in a 168 version for the Garand match at the Nationals this summer.
My dad has fired Remington commercial ammo in his Garand since the mid 60's. Regular green box 180gr. Sometimes PSP sometimes RN whatever was on sale. Granted this has probably been less than 500 rounds in all those years as the Garand was his only centerfire rifle. It is the only centerfire rifle I have ever seen him hunt with.
Don't shoot any of the new high-energy loadings or reloads with slow burning powder and you will be fine. Stick to bullets weighing from 140-175gr and you will be fine. It's a battle rifle......
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 01, 2009, 01:21:47 PM
It's a battle rifle......
...with a maximum chamber pressure limit of 50,000 PSI.
While I would be leery of shooting factory 180 grain loads in my M1 I did dig up some interesting info. I can't vouch for this info as it came off the internet ;D
http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm
This link has a page of what is said to be SAAMI pressure limits for various cartridges. It lists the 30.06 at 50,000 max. If the commercial ammo makers stick to the SAAMI spec. and this table is correct it seems the heavier bullet loads (chamber pressure wise) should be okay in an M1. Therefor the issue would be gas system pressures. No way of telling what the commercial hunting ammo gas system pressures might be.
One interesting thing is the SAAMI max pressure listed for the .308 Winchester (62,000 psi). While that's well above the GI 30.06 ammo pressure levels the commercial M1A's are rated to handle .308 ammo and I can't imagine my commercial receivered M1A from Springfield Armory, Inc. having a tougher receiver than my old WW2 M1's from (the real) Springfield Armory. Again, gas system pressure would be important here, too.
The say one of the ways to get a little info on your loads gas system pressure is to compare where the empties go. If the rifle throws surplus brass and commercial ammo brass to about the same spot and same distance on the clock (seems 1:30 or 2:00 o'clock is about right isn't it?) then the gas system pressures may be comparable.
The M1 has a long and somewhat fragile operating rod as compared to the M14/M1A and is easy to bend if the ammo is wrong for the rifle.
Then again what's the possibility that an M1 with a worn gas cylinder or operating rod gas button might work fine with commercial ammo with a high gas system pressure but have issues with surplus ammo?
I think I'll just stick with my adjustable gas plug and trust it when I load up some 180 grain bullets for the old M1.
Have a good day.
Quote from: Nevada Smith on July 01, 2009, 05:58:41 PM
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 01, 2009, 01:21:47 PM
It's a battle rifle......
...with a maximum chamber pressure limit of 50,000 PSI.
It's the gas port pressure that matters most. That is what will take out the op-rod.
The Navy modified many M1's to fire 7.62x51 by use of a chamber insert with no other mods done to the rifle. The 7.62x51 operates at higher than 50,000 psi chamber pressure. Unless you are using the newer high energy ammunition there is very little chance of damaging an M1 from shooting 180gr factory loads.
Shooting 180gr bullets over a max charge of a slow burning powder is a different story.
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 01, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
The Navy modified many M1's to fire 7.62x51 by use of a chamber insert with no other mods done to the rifle. The 7.62x51 operates at higher than 50,000 psi chamber pressure.
7.62x51 NATO has a maximum chamber pressure of 50,000. Commercial .308 has a maximum of 62,000. The problem with running 180 grain bullets in the M1 Garand is that the gas port pressure will be higher. As you mentioned, chamber pressure is not as critical as gas port pressure. Gas port pressure is what the op rod sees. You need some way to bleed the gas off if you are going to run 180 grain commercial ammo.
Why would you be feeding your M1 heavy hunting rounds when you can feed it 150gr ball ammo for much cheaper and have better accuracy????
The ticket is to buy a Schuster vented gas plug.
They run $35-40 and can be adjusted to handle any 06 ammo in your M1.
Sometimes you have to use what's on hand and the Schuster will let you do that.
Sam,
Where can you get one. I've got a bunch of Hornaday 150 gr hunting ammo & a surplus of pigs. I've been afraid to take my mew CMP garand out after them.
Guy
Midway
Brownells
Creedmore
Champions Choice
google is your friend....
Quote from: Joe on July 02, 2009, 03:09:25 AM
google is your friend....
I fixed the links for you...... O0
http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/Default.aspx#garand%20gas%20plug____-_1-2-4_8-16-32
,
,
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=garand+gas+plug/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=garand_gas_plug
,
,
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16377
Quote from: fepowered on July 01, 2009, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 01, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
The Navy modified many M1's to fire 7.62x51 by use of a chamber insert with no other mods done to the rifle. The 7.62x51 operates at higher than 50,000 psi chamber pressure.
7.62x51 NATO has a maximum chamber pressure of 50,000. Commercial .308 has a maximum of 62,000. The problem with running 180 grain bullets in the M1 Garand is that the gas port pressure will be higher. As you mentioned, chamber pressure is not as critical as gas port pressure. Gas port pressure is what the op rod sees. You need some way to bleed the gas off if you are going to run 180 grain commercial ammo.
Why would you be feeding your M1 heavy hunting rounds when you can feed it 150gr ball ammo for much cheaper and have better accuracy????
The gas port pressure MAY be higher, depends on the burn rate of the powder used. 150gr bullets loaded with a slow powder can have a higher port pressure than 190gr bullets loaded with a faster powder.
Since it was common for the military to convert the M1 to 7.62 by either rebarreling or the use of a chamber insert and they fired commercial 308 Win Match ammo I don't see it as an issue. They also loaded their own ammo with 168, 180 and the USN even used 190gr bullets in their match ammo. Some of this ammo was loaded at near proof pressure levels. The M1 is not a Swiss watch, it's more like a sundial.
Some good info can be had from the CMP site. http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=66671 (http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=66671)
The reason we use 180gr commercial ammo is because it is not legal to hunt with FMJ. In the M1's I have used the commercial hunting ammo has been more accurate than ball ammo as well.
Shameless copy and paste from Fulton Armory:
Clint, what ammunition do you recommend for 7.62/.308 cal. M1s & M14/M1As and .30-'06 M1s?
We recommend 147-150 grain full metal jacket for standard fodder, and recommend and offer 168 and 175 grain Black Hills Match for accuracy. Our rifle accuracy guarantees are based on the appropriate Black Hills Match ammo.
Clint, what about hunting ammo? The last batch of hunting ammo I tried did not cycle the action quite right and I had a couple of malfunctions. Thanks, Pat.
Pat, we offer Black Hills Gold .30-'06 and .308 Winchester, with a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. You want the hard polycarbonate tip to keep from gumming up the rifle with lead shaved from soft point tips, and 165 gr is an ideal weight for the M1.
Clint McKee/Walt Kuleck
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 02, 2009, 01:48:45 PM
The gas port pressure MAY be higher,
It is obviously an individual choice regarding what kind of chance you are willing to take when feeding your M1. "MAY" should be enough of a chance for M1 shooters to be cautious. Using anecdotal evidence regarding match ammo from the 1970s is not good enough to say that present day 180 grain hunting ammo is all perfectly safe. Since no one on the board has the instruments to measure their gas port pressure, an adjustable plug is certainly less expensive than having to replace an op rod....... <:)
...and you should always keep in mind what direction that op rod is going to be moving if it breaks! :o
Used to be an older fella on the old RWVA forum that said one time while he was working on some hunting type loads for his M1 (heavy bullet and slow burning powders) he launched the whole gas cylinder down range several yards.
Keep in mind there are sometimes (severe) consequences for stepping out of the beaten path.
In spite of everything said (and some by me) I intend to work up some heavy bullet/slow burning powder loads for my M1 Garand - but my rifle has a Schuster adjustable gas plug on it.
Have a good one, and be careful. We sure don't want anyone to get hurt, or to damage their rifles.
Quote from: Old Dog on July 02, 2009, 10:44:39 PM
Used to be an older fella on the old RWVA forum that said one time while he was working on some hunting type loads for his M1 (heavy bullet and slow burning powders) he launched the whole gas cylinder down range several yards.
Keep in mind there are sometimes (severe) consequences for stepping out of the beaten path.
In spite of everything said (and some by me) I intend to work up some heavy bullet/slow burning powder loads for my M1 Garand - but my rifle has a Schuster adjustable gas plug on it.
Have a good one, and be careful. We sure don't want anyone to get hurt, or to damage their rifles.
Shooting heavier bullets and commercial ammo out of an M1 is not off the beaten bath, merely a different fork in the trail.
I've seen an M1 in 35 Whelen and there is a company that converts them to 338 and 458 Win Mag as well. The M1 even was sporterized for a time with the gas cylinder flipped around and the front handguards removed. There really is very little that hasn't been tried before.
http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/garand/garand.html (http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/garand/garand.html)
Here's a quote from their website:
Well, for all those in doubt, here is a quote from Hatcher's notebook. "In trying to determine the ultimate strength of the gun, Mr. Garand built up progressively higher proof loads in increments of 5,000 lbs. pressure, from the regular proof load of 70,000 lbs. to the extreme figure of 120,000 lbs. per square inch. At this later figure, cracked left lugs on the bolt began to be encountered. A gun in which the bolt had the left lug cracked by one of these excessive high pressure overloads was then fired an endurance test of 5,000 rounds of service ammunition, using the cracked bolt, which showed no further deterioration. The US M1 rifle thus has perhaps the strongest action of any military shoulder rifle in existence at this time." Do you still doubt?
If any of you know a decent machinist, and don't mind hand-cycling your M1 ( like for hunting, not for Appleseeds ), have him fashion a nice stainless-steel cylinder-shaped plug that:
a. fits inside the space between the op-rod's piston-face and the cylinder-plug
b. obstructs the gas ports, and,
c. is easily removable.
Voila! back yonder @ the chamber, you've got the approximate strength of a bolt-action, anyway, and, since you've prevented nearly ANY gas travel thru the port, you can run any bullet-weight/burn-rate combo that you find in the legitimate reloading manuals, so long as you stay under 50K chamber pressure.
Or, for the poor-boy's solution, you could probably also just get a "spare" gas-plug, drill some vents, and keep expanding diameters until you get zero-stroke travel
Joe & Fepowered
Thanks for the info on the adjustable plug. Got one ordered. Midway even has em on sale. Whole lot cheaper than an op rod.
Guy
although I posted some "thinking outta da box" a couple hours ago, the Visa card was calling me....2 valves from Midway (1 for me/1 for Geddy's Cousin), and 500 (backordered)Armscor .224/62grFMJ from Midway.
I like Midway.
I have an article , from a back issue of "American Rifleman", on match loads for the Garand. It includes 'heavy bullets', 180 & 190 grns. In addition to the 'medium speed' powders it also includes loads for IMR4350 for these bullets,,,with the admonition that this powder not be used w/ lighter bullets.
A few years ago a fellow new to reloading was up at the club lamenting that be bent the op-rod on his Garand. I asked about the offending load ; 150's w/ 4350. I suggested that powder was too slow for that weight bullet. He had heard that from a couple other fellows as well. Rather than burden him w/ details I suggested he simply stay orthodox. :~
IMR 4350 isn't a good powder for any bullet weight in an M1. Somewhere in a box of "mementos of my learning years" I have the original M14 op rod off my early M1A. I cracked it, had it welded up and cracked it again. I was using IMR 4350, Federal Bench Rest primers and Sierra 180 grn. Match Kings. I don't load for velocity, I load for accuracy and the primers on those loads did not show signs of high pressure. Chamber pressure with the IMR 4350 was fine, gas port pressures made a mess out of my op rod.
The M1 Op rod is longer, thinner, more fragile than an M14 op rod. I wouldn't mess with the slow burning powders without installing an adjustable gas plug and then working the adjustment in to vent off the excess pressure from IMR 4350, IMR 4831, Win 760, etc.
The Schuster adjustable gas plugs are on sale at Midway for about $30. My gunshow experiences says you'd be lucky to find replacement M1 op rod for less than $150.
Your rifle, your money.
I've used only Hodgdon 4895 for my M2 simulator softpoint hunt rounds---147 or 150gr @ 2800-ish w/no port-pressure problems