So after attending my first Appleseed a while back, I learned a good bit from the class. One of the issues that I found, however, was that I just can't seem to get the crossed leg sitting position to work for me. At the event, I simply shot in open leg sitting position, and did rather well in it.
However, I still want to learn and be proficient in both sitting positions. When in crossed leg sitting position, it seems I just can't become stable - I do have long arms and a long torso. It seems that my rifle is way too low when in the position, and I can't really relax and loosen the tension in my legs without everything falling apart. What adjustments might work so the position works for me? I did find that the crossed ankle position did work a good bit better for me - is that a valid substitute for the crossed leg sitting position?
Sometimes the cross leg position just will not work for some. Try first pointing your support knee toward the target to angle your body properly, then place the support foot on top. The key is to use a position that allows both elbows to be planted, either in front or behind the knees.
Quote from: 223chunker on December 24, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
I did find that the crossed ankle position did work a good bit better for me - is that a valid substitute for the crossed leg sitting position?
Gentle stretching or even yoga can make a huge difference in your shooting positions... and your day-to-day life.
If the crossed-ankle position works for you, GREAT!! O0 It is certainly a valid choice and is my personal preference. The sitting position is very dependent on your body geometry and flexibility. You'll likely find that the more you practice, the more you'll be able to do.
Merry Christmas!
Quote from: 223chunker on December 24, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
So after attending my first Appleseed a while back, I learned a good bit from the class. One of the issues that I found, however, was that I just can't seem to get the crossed leg sitting position to work for me. At the event, I simply shot in open leg sitting position, and did rather well in it.
However, I still want to learn and be proficient in both sitting positions. When in crossed leg sitting position, it seems I just can't become stable - I do have long arms and a long torso. It seems that my rifle is way too low when in the position, and I can't really relax and loosen the tension in my legs without everything falling apart. What adjustments might work so the position works for me? I did find that the crossed ankle position did work a good bit better for me - is that a valid substitute for the crossed leg sitting position?
Yoga. If finding a class isn't available, Tony Horton's P90x yoga routine is pretty decent. The advantage of a class is that ability to ask an instructor about modifications/progression/improvement about your exact situation (especially for those of us who are mobility/flexibility-challenged). Particularly true if the instructor has a more athletic background or is simply more interested in kinesiology.
I'm still not able to get into seated, but I'm a lot better off than I was years ago.
There are several ways to adjust your elevation in the cross-legged position. You can pull your legs in tighter, If able - you can spread your feet closer together or further apart, and also place your elbows in the pockets formed behind your knees, you can place your support leg in first, rather than your trigger-side leg -- and lastly, you might even try moving the butt of your rifle lower in your shoulder pocket and/or moving your support hand forward or back on the fore-stock of your rifle. All that being said, practice, practice, practice your position, with your unloaded rifle - ammo in another location. Get in your sling, etc. and practice your position and you will figure out what works with your body geometry.
I have found that the solution to a lot of problems getting a good sitting position can be solved by this:
After getting in position, consciously push your rear end back an inch or two. That seems to drop the body into a better angle on the rifle.
I don't know why that works so well, I think that, as Americans, we don't stretch enough and that first movement to the ground is usually not quite enough.
Also try to get your front elbow really buried solidly in front of the knee. It took me daily stretching routines to get to where that is "easy" to do.
Hat tip to FiremanBob for the rear end scootch trick. I've seen it help a lot of people over the years.
Try Your chosen Seated position, every night for a week or so while watching the News, or Your favorite Television show. stay in it for a few minutes at first, then for a longer amount as You loosen up.
All those suggestions plus one more, elbow pads. They will give just a little extra elevation on the front end. My daughter's volleyball knee pads worked well. They're all cotton and didn't slip, just like a GI sling.
Crossed leg is a very stable position, unless it doesn't work for you.
After a September Appleseed, I tried cross leg at a local 50' 3 position match in September and October.
Did okay. 87/100 September, 88/100 October, but had stability issues that I was "timing the wobble" put a couple in the 6 ring and one in the 5 ring.
November, I sat open leg 94/100, never broke the 8 ring, and was able to call the shots that didn't hit the 10.
My wife has had back surgery and literally cannot bend enough to cross leg and neslte her arms in the proper locations.
Find what works for your body, and use it. Adapt.
:pics:
Get someone to take some pictures of you in seated. I had to use cross ankle when I started as my back was so tight my point of aim in cross legged was about 3 feet in front of me. Now my seated is almost as stable as prone.
Pictures give you the ability to see what needs changed and keep track of your progress.
Build a dummy rifle or make your rifle safe and spend as much time practicing positions as you can. Also practice the transitions as that is where a lot of time is gained or lost.
Another vote for yoga. I used my Nintendo Wii Fit to help limber up. Any stretching really. We used to always stretch before football practice as a kid so I break some of those out too.
More than anything else though I spent a long time just practicing to transition quickly into the seated position. Dry-fire isn't just about squeeeeeeezing the trigger. That is definitely part of it, but it is one part of one of the pieces to the tripod of marksmanship (6 Steps, NPOA, and Steady Hold Factors). Dry Fire is also about practicing all the sling configurations, different positions, reloading, and so on. If you have a particular thing you need to work on, like getting into cross-legged position than dry-fire that. Similarly, I was taking too long so I dry-fired just getting into position quickly. Many hours and many days in my basement with my AR in my shooting jacket just transitioning, loading and firing one good dry-fire shot over and over. The more I did it though, the easier it was to get into and quicker I could acquire target.
I train weekly, and also found that the cross-legged position just did not work well for me.
I have a 34" inseam, and 34/35 sleeve.
One of the guys that I train with had me push my feet farther away from my body instead of feet tight to the crotch.
It was remarkably stable.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/333864569_1248169235909382_4586697037015403625_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=2riX22b9BhQAX9I2UMo&tn=Cy3MjOCl9yo5C7rs&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDpg8PMixUA32DPw-4EMONTEY0rVvc0Y-8-RNcUaaJJxA&oe=64051017)
Quote from: JustKim on December 24, 2022, 10:23:39 PMYou can pull your legs in tighter
^^ This, this and this. Three times "this", because it is that critical.
The lower legs must be fully atop one another to provide elevation and maximum non-muscular stability in the cross-legged position.
I am about the most inflexible person I know. A lifetime of injuries have left their mark. Particularly, I have lower back and hip joint limited range of motion. The crossed-leg seated position was difficult for me to use but I knew it was too important to be able to use and instruct this position. My chiropractor suggested a series of targeted stretches and exercises that improved my flexibility over a few months. I can now get into position (even quickly) and shoot satisfactorily. That routine of stretches and exercises (I call it rifleman yoga) made a huge difference on and off the shooting range.
To get more elevation, try scrunching up legs tighter, that will prop up higher the support knee. Also, the support hand can slide fore and aft on the stock to lower/raise the rifle. Angle body in relation to the target so the support arm is as close to vertical as you can get it. Most of all, PERSIST. You will improve, it maybe even become easier, but only with time and effort (dry practice at home regularly).
Now that I'm an IIT, I've been reading through all the instructor manuals and other good teaching tools available. :1luvu The thing that was an A-HA! moment for me was the fact that the trigger side leg should come in first and the support side leg second :wb: I naturally cross my legs the opposite way, and do not recall this procedural tip being mentioned at my previous AS clinics. I ended up working it out with crossed ankles and sometimes open legged depending on how my hips were feeling. Now I want to try the "clarified" cross-leg and see how it works!!
I have managed to get fairly proficient at sitting but I know I'm not doing like the instructor. I think its because in general I have flexible hips and and ankles which cause my legs to be way flatter than other people. Putting my knees up means I'm using a lot of muscle which leads to fatigue and crappy shots. I still cross my legs with the the trigger leg underneath but from there I tighten the hell out of my sling and have learned to hunker down into a relatively stable position. I'm sure my back must be significantly less upright than others. NPOA definitely takes a bit longer as shifting around is more difficult but I'm able to get a nice vertical sweep during breathing. I save a bit of time on the stage by actually keeping my legs crossed and rolling on my ankles to stand, that way I can just drop down and start.
RoryBellows, Although it is desirable to get NPOA during prep time, then stand in position without moving your feet, this is not recommended. Experience learned over years of Appleseed shoots recognizes a safety hazard that could happen, imbalance and awkwardness during the transition. It is better to use your support hand to assist in dropping into position (also during standing) and find NPOA. This seems like it takes more time in finding NPOA but even doing it as you describe, you would have to check NPOA anyway, probably making slight adjustments to be right on. In my experience, having done the transitions and finding NPOA with so many repetitions, I find myself dropping very close into my NPOA, needing only a slight adjustment or two before starting the string of fire. The greatest time is saved from experience doing it many times. Perfect to dry practice at home to improve your skill at the range. In that dry practice, you can also perfect smooth and fast mag changes, another time saver. And finally, use Rifleman cadence (since you have NPOA) to get shots off quickly without sloppy rushing. Persist in this journey.