I popped in to see my instructor / friend / guru guy this week. He was a former police chief, an instructor for state law enforcement academies, National Guard, and a private teaching company, and a skilled competitor.
I mentioned to him that I took Appleseed, but now needed to upgrade my 10/22 with a trigger, new stock, etc, etc.
He gave me that wry look that usually showed up when he was going to teach me a lesson.
"When I was in the military, we shot competitively to hone our skills, and to put soldiers in a position where every shot had to count, and where they had to shoot under pressure.
We never brought tricked out guns to these shoots. We shot whatever gun was handed to us by the armory on site. We had to adapt to strange guns, and still find a way to succeed.
Sure it's easier to have a gun set up for Appleseed, but I don't think that's being a true rifleman. Being a true rifleman means taking any gun, and being able to shoot to qualify. "
I think he made a very good point. It's easy to shoot Rifleman with a tricked out gun. It's much harder when you have to take any gun, and meet the standards.
Something to think about.
Maybe Appleseed needs to make a patch for people to shoot stock guns in a qual. Not sure how you'd define this, as my 10/22 does have a larger mag release, and a mod to the bolt staying open.
:yeahthat:
post deleted as i re-read it and it didn't contribute anything beneficial
I, too, have rarely seen a poor shooter with a great rifle "easily" score Rifleman, but have seen plenty of great shooters with a stock rifle do so.
Indian, not the arrow.
Every now and then, a shooter swears that their ammo is bad, or their firearm (pistol / rifle) isn't shooting right - even after checking to ensure that all sights are secured, etc.
When that happens I've found that one of the fastest ways to resolve this . . . discussion . . . is to have an instructor fire the firearm.
It's usually not the firearm.
> Show up
> Take a loaner rifle
> Shoot bulk ammo
> Earn Rifleman
Maybe we could get a "Rack Grade" tab lol
Quote from: Emmett518 on August 04, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
"When I was in the military, we shot competitively to hone our skills, and to put soldiers in a position where every shot had to count, and where they had to shoot under pressure.
We never brought tricked out guns to these shoots. We shot whatever gun was handed to us by the armory on site. We had to adapt to strange guns, and still find a way to succeed.
Watching the news from Camp Perry this week, I wish that was the case still. My friend and I were just talking about how "service rifle competition" should mean you show up at 0800 to the National Guard Armory to draw whatever rifle they have and whatever ammo they have to shoot the competition. No pet loads, no fancy sights; just whatever the GIs are using (you know, in the "service").
Modifications to Appleseed rifles: I agree should be minimal. I have a "pet" AR that I have set up the way I want, and a .22LR "M16-A22" trainer that I have purposely set up as stock as possible (except for ambidextrous mag release and safety… why not? Also using m&p 15-22 mags and a special bolt catch so the manual of arms is 1:1 with a 5.56 issue rifle). Unfortunately I've loaned out the rifle a couple times before attempting to shoot Rifleman with it myself. I found out why the Army doesn't teach use of the sling anymore. And why you absolutely need to (well, I at least SHOULD) use the sling for the AQT. ARs need a free float handguard (my friend also found this out with his non floated at the time Armalite heavy barrel competition rifle at a highpower match).
My Marlin 60 is fine with just a set of Techsights.
My M1 is in as-issued configuration (unless you wanna get picky about .308 barrels)
My first three patches were on a stock rifle with scope (I have bad eyes), CCI std ammo. Then I "fit " the rifle to me. Still CCI ammo.
Decorations are nice and will take them as I get them. But patches are the candle on the cake; Learn to shoot a
Stock rifle, then fit the rifle if needed. A rifleman will prevail.
If we are about patches then maybe a Appleseed competition of sorts I think we have a competition team.
Just don't shoot a loaner until you zero it. :D
I'm not a patch driven person but I understand the reason alot of people are. I don't know how to quantify a rack grade standard. On the one hand we had liberty training rifles - marlin 795s with tech sights, those seem to have dried up and been overtaken by ruger 10/22's but still the standard has always been tech sights and a gi sling. Now we have some sort of ar platform from tippmann. And we have a optics package through vortex on our store. So is the " officially" unofficial liberty training rifle going to become a tipmann .22 with a vortex 1-4? Or is that considered custom because it didn't come from the factory like that? Most rifles don't come with irons these days so what's the determining factor on optics/irons as a standard?
I don't think that shooting with a rifle set up as a liberty training rifle is a particularly special thing. I have 2 loaners with tech sights 2 loaners with optics.. both have qualified multiple rifleman. And I don't think it really warrants a special patch for doing so. If you qual you already get a super dope patch in gods favorite color. Do you really need a different patch for qualifying with a different rifle? But to counter my own point its fun to try out different rifles at events. Just this past weekend after I qualified with my .22lr I brought out my ak and tried it out. So maybe having different patches would force shooters to try different rifles and adapt instead of just dumping money into ruger add ons.
Now I am in favor of adding a patch for running a bolt gun or levergun because that's a challenge.
I dunno i guess ill say what I always say and ask the shooters what they want. For instance most of my shooters have said they want 3in velcro rifleman patches for hats and things. When I ran it up the chain it came back that it probably wouldn't happen due to cost. But a possibility of offering it for purchase in our store was certainly a possibility.
So maybe that's a option for you. Come up with a patch concept with a rack grade rifle on it and see if there's demand enough to put it in the store. It might not be a qualifying patch but it could be a fun morale patch or topic starter for people.
Quote from: 509gman on August 05, 2022, 02:16:31 AM
I found out why the Army doesn't teach use of the sling anymore.
Would you mind expanding on this? Not sure what you mean.
The zero changes every time I sling up on a non free floated AR. At least with a government profile barrel (and given my friend's experience, with an HBAR too tho perhaps to a lesser degree) even subtle changes in pressure from the sling will make a group that was centered on the last string go way off to one quadrant in the next. Yes, this happened even with no alteration of the length of the sling or apparent hand placement. Shooting without a sling was slightly better (groups stayed centered)until I got tired after shooting all day (group spread increased).
If someone else has done "just fine" on an AQT with a stock AR, good for you. I've seen students struggle with my rifle as well as endured my own travails, I don't want to keep passing on this misery. If that's "babying the students" so be it. I don't have this problem with my other rifles.
Are you saying that I'm going to have trouble keeping zero with a build like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/20-chf-a2-premium-rifle-kit.html
Quote from: 300berg on August 05, 2022, 05:05:39 PM
Are you saying that I'm going to have trouble keeping zero with a build like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/20-chf-a2-premium-rifle-kit.html
You'll be just fine.
There is a mistaken belief that shooting with a sling flexes the barrel enough for a zero to shift.
On a properly assembled rifle, it's not the tension the sling provides which causes the zero to shift. A shooter holding the rifle and the rifle itself form a
system that manages recoil. When you move from the bench to the mat with a sling, the
system changes. Your grip in both hands changes and how the rifle is shouldered changes. Add a rest on that bench and that's yet another variable. If you make a major change in the
system, there's going to be a significant shift in zero. That before any shooter error is involved.
Barrel deflection from employing a sling is insignificant for a 4 MOA shooter with a properly assembled rifle. However, slight zero shifts from moving from bench to position or position to position are quite common.
Free float handguards offer advantages, but I am not convinced that avoiding barrel flex is one of them - except in a shooter's mind. Since shooting is 90% mental anyway, if it gives you confidence - go for it.
Thank you, that detail rounds out some of my experience quite a lot.
I certainly noticed a zero change from bench to sling, and I really like the "system" mentality you describe.
Just from thinking back to an occasion where I had sling+prone zeroed, lent the rifle to a friend who tightened the
sling, when I shot it next I just went with it, which was
over tight to the point of discomfort.
I believe I noticed 2 MoA downward shift. Could that much shift be due to over tightness?
Probably it was operator error, but curious on improving the craft.
Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on August 05, 2022, 08:29:54 PM
Quote from: 300berg on August 05, 2022, 05:05:39 PM
Are you saying that I'm going to have trouble keeping zero with a build like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/20-chf-a2-premium-rifle-kit.html
You'll be just fine.
There is a mistaken belief that shooting with a sling flexes the barrel enough for a zero to shift.
On a properly assembled rifle, it's not the tension the sling provides which causes the zero to shift. A shooter holding the rifle and the rifle itself form a system that manages recoil. When you move from the bench to the mat with a sling, the system changes. Your grip in both hands changes and how the rifle is shouldered changes. Add a rest on that bench and that's yet another variable. If you make a major change in the system, there's going to be a significant shift in zero. That before any shooter error is involved.
Barrel deflection from employing a sling is insignificant for a 4 MOA shooter with a properly assembled rifle. However, slight zero shifts from moving from bench to position or position to position are quite common.
Free float handguards offer advantages, but I am not convinced that avoiding barrel flex is one of them - except in a shooter's mind. Since shooting is 90% mental anyway, if it gives you confidence - go for it.
In my experience, the Army didn't teach use of a sling AT ALL.
I frequently tell people that Appleseed teaches the way I wish the Army had.
QuoteBeing a true rifleman means taking any gun, and being able to shoot to qualify.
Yep. Just put the holes where they belong from standing, seated, and prone positions. Any functioning rifle will do.
Can you guys imagine the Bedford militia getting all bent out of shape because Isaac Davis and the Acton minutemen showed up running some operator-level Sh*t?
Just be Riflemen. The contest is between you and your rifle and your target, not your neighbor and whatever they're running.
Quote from: T. WOLF on August 06, 2022, 03:11:27 AM
...Isaac Davis and the Acton minutemen showed up running some operator-level Sh*t?
That sounds awesome. :---
I want to see that movie.
In my ‘less than two years in Appleseed' opinion, we don't need no (more) steenkin' patches.
The only patch that matters is the Rifleman patch. And once you get a hat you don't need a patch, it's implied that you earned it.
Do I WANT a Distinguished/250 rocker? You bet! It's a challenge I aspire to.
Do I WANT to hit the shingle? Absolutely.
Pistoleer patch? I'd like to collect one of those, too.
I doubt I will ever wear any of the patches I have or may earn in the future. It just seems like a way to inflate one's ego, and I was under the impression we try to avoid that pitfall.
Quote from: T. WOLF on August 06, 2022, 03:11:27 AM
QuoteBeing a true rifleman means taking any gun, and being able to shoot to qualify.
Yep. Just put the holes where they belong from standing, seated, and prone positions. Any functioning rifle will do.
Can you guys imagine the Bedford militia getting all bent out of shape because Isaac Davis and the Acton minutemen showed up running some operator-level Sh*t?
Just be Riflemen. The contest is between you and your rifle and your target, not your neighbor and whatever they're running.
This is it exactly. Talking about someone's "tricked-out gun" as if the rifle operates without someone taking it in hand, settling it into one's shoulder, ensuring a solid firing hand grip, finessing the support hand grip to not induce wobbble/sway, using the sling propertly (if at all), and smoothly pressing the trigger.
I've shot AQT Rifleman scores with a T/CR 22 and Holosun 403G, using a 3x magnifier for the last stage. I've shot it with an AR-15 pattern running a dedicated .22LR upper, and the same optic setup -- but no sling. Over the next two weeks, I plan to shoot the same AR rifle with Magpul poly sights to see how that goes. I'm also going to shoot it with a Steiner P4Xi 1-4x LPVO and see how well I do at 1x versus using magnification on the final stage.
If I were 30 years younger with the vision of my self at that age, I'd stodgily insist on using irons. For the fundamentals, at the very least. But my self at that age had no idea what his vision would be like 30 years later. Once you lose distance acuity scopes become almost essential, no matter how weak your vision Rx. Once you need readers, good luck making sense of front sight vs target and back again when switching targets.
I'm not saying it can't be done, as many riflemen around the world, previously and now, have competed in difficult distance marksmanship competitions with purely iron sights.
But it makes no sense to handicap anyone if in the world outside Appleseed AQT shooting, people have access to a variety of optic solutions for their vision and their preferences... as long as those who decide to run electronic optics only are aware that they are without a sighting system if the electronics side goes down.
Pencil barrelled ARs will be pulled hard left at range by slings on the barrel. Either that, or mine's a Communist and goes left of its own accord.
Rifleman is designed for rack grade rifles. We turn a blind eye to race guns as you are really cheating yourself and you are in competition with no one but yourself. I am against any sort of designation for this because one should never make a rule that can't be easily regulated and enforced, as in I do not want to be in the business of inspecting guns for stock parts.
Not broke, don't fix.
::) so many possibilities....
(https://limn.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/UTI1851821_t837.jpg)
So many merit badges, yet he doesn't get that the knots are for adults and the sash and the oval badge are for youth. Also, the medals are not hung on the pocket flap. Nor does one wear the Life Badge pin after one has earned Eagle, nor any of the other pins which are on his collars. The JLT patch goes UNDER the troop numerals, not above.
I haven't been active in the BSA this century, and even I am bothered by this staging. My sash has 21 merit badges, because that's what you needed for Eagle, and I have that as well.
Side story, I was home after high school but before college and was 19 at the time. I had nothing to do that summer, so I volunteered as staff at my local scout camp where I had worked before, and attended before that. 18-20 is an odd period for the Scouts, you are not a youth, but you are not an adult in the program. Adults wear the knots seen above the pocket on He Of Many Patches above. Youth wear the rank patch, which you can see behind his tricolor Eagle Medal. 18-20 can wear either. Since I was unaffiliated with a troop, and I had earned Eagle, I thought it would be proper to rock that red, white, blue, and silver Eagle patch on my uniforms that summer and so I did. I had one Scoutmaster be adamant and angry with me about it, claiming I was wrong and wanting me to cut it off right there, but, no issue beyond that.
Changes that I do suggest in a rifle? Anything that makes it run better. Improve the mag release? Heck yeah. Ambidextrous options especially for a lefty? I'm in! Sights that can be easily zeroed? Ditto. Special triggers and other hooplah? Not so much. Those are not needed to make rifleman but a reliable rifle is.
As a patch chaser myself and having scored my first rifleman score with a stock 10/22 with a cheap scope. A stock rifleman patch would be an "easy" patch for me to get and add to my collection. ;D Below are my additional two cents that I haven't seen posted yet.
If you look at the patches released, they are all a motivating way to improve your marksmanship. Once earned they are a showoff item to get the AS name out there. "Hey buddy, look what I earned last weekend at an Appleseed!" Thus, promoting and motivating more people to come and hear our message.
Having a patch that says you bought a certain type of rifle and scored rifleman with it, I do not see how that would advance the mission. It also could lead to a slippery slope of disparaging other's rifles that are not "patch" worthy. :'(
So as much as I love earning patches I do not see where a stock rifleman patch would benefit Appleseed.
Just to add nothing of particular value to the thread... I think an "Iron Sights" bar would be cool. Maybe too an "Iron Sights Distinguished" bar. And of course, "Shot in Speedos" bar.
Quote from: BurnettAnd of course, "Shot in Speedos" bar.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/111df1eab097df846532700726c31f7d/tenor.gif)
And suddenly the thread takes an abrupt left turn.
Quote from: JMynes on October 12, 2022, 11:43:06 AM
And suddenly the thread takes an abrupt left turn.
:yeahthat:
So, what I'm sensing is a desire to have a theme event with women in 2 pieces and men in speedos.
An "Appleseed, where History and Heritage meet Marksmanship in Bikinis and Banana Hammocks" kind of thing.
What are you getting at? :))
Quote from: Mrs. Smith on October 11, 2022, 11:51:31 PM
Quote from: BurnettAnd of course, "Shot in Speedos" bar.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/111df1eab097df846532700726c31f7d/tenor.gif)
I love the idea of a "bolt gun rocker" especially since some of the stages have short times.
While I agree with the distinguished and the 250 and the KD and the Winterseed, and the Purple Yotnottin Rifleman badge for women, I think it needs to end there. The Morgan's Rifleman patch is a nice addition, because it doesn't do anything to the Rifleman qualification. Pistolseed as well; it doesn't do anything to the Rifleman qualification.
Appleseed is a fundamentals shooting program, and a fundamentals being an American program. I think it is a detriment to the unity of the group of Riflemen to have further things to chase, on a group level, after that. Pursuing perfection for one's own self is a good thing, but you're still a Rifleman, same as the guy who just shot a 210 and got dunked. After you've done the 25m course, and the KD course, the idea is to keep practicing and getting better. Really, the idea is that you should be able to shoot score with any rack grade rifle; it kind of cheapens the Rifleman patch to have a "Bolt Gun" or "Tube Fed Lever" rocker to go with it since it's implied you should be able to do it anyway as you're a Rifleman.
I know some here believe adding new patches could be an incentive for past attendees to want to come back to another Appleseed for a chance to get the new patch (as in: "collect them all"). While this may be true for some, for others it could have the effect of reinforcing their mistaken belief that Appleseed is just a kids program, kinda' like Boy Scouts.
If we are going to go down the new patch category rabbit hole, then we need to step back and ponder what the program is really about. So I propose a "250" patch for someone that has written/called their congressman/senator 250 times.
A distinguished patch for someone who has lawfully shown up and lawfully protested at a school board meeting.
A long distance patch for someone who volunteers to drive a couple of hours to be a poll watcher.
A known distance patch for someone who goes around their neighborhood and campaigns for a political candidate that supports liberty initiatives
Maybe a rocker for "Ambi". If you normally shoot righty, you must score shooting lefty. So not favorite side and not favorite eye.
Quote from: GentlemanArcher on October 21, 2022, 09:35:50 AM
Maybe a rocker for "Ambi". If you normally shoot righty, you must score shooting lefty. So not favorite side and not favorite eye.
I don't think we need anymore patches. I think Ambidextrous shooting is an awesome skill to have, but I think of it more of a personal accomplishment than something that deserves a patch. Additionally, that is the only patch that I can think of that could not be attained under Adaptive Appleseed conditions. For example, someone who is differently able and cannot see out of his/her non-dominant eye would find it nearly impossible to qualify (in fact, it would be unsafe). In my opinion, if a patch is in unachievable by the differently abled under Adaptive Appleseed, it probably shouldn't exist.
I don't think we need another patch.
An Appleseed speedo with a D-target printed strategically?
I might need one of those.
SPEEDO ROCKER mock-up:
(https://i.imgur.com/2OrDiGYm.jpg)
No. No. NO. NO NO NO NO NO!
Your fingers are typing "No. No. NO. NO NO NO NO NO!", but your hearts are screaming "Yes. Yes. YES. YES YES YES YES YES!"
:sos:
Quote from: Burnett on October 22, 2022, 04:58:25 PM
Your fingers are typing "No. No. NO. NO NO NO NO NO!", but your hearts are screaming "Yes. Yes. YES. YES YES YES YES YES!"