I recently took a defensive carbine class offered by some local instructors. I came into the class thinking I knew what I was doing, given that I'd already earned a rifleman patch and knew about NPOA etc. I quickly realized I had a lot to learn. It was a very different experience than anything I'd been through before.
Some key differences in technique:
- Trigger control: in the DC class we had to place multiple shots downrange rapidly. There was no wait to release the trigger after firing a shot. To keep on target they taught us to outmuscle the rifle.
- Slings were only for retaining the rifle, and not a shooting aid.
- While shooting prone, your body is aligned directly towards the target instead of at an angle. The rifle rests on the ground on the magazine rather than on a support hand. I believe this was to reduce your profile and minimize exposed body surface in a defensive situation.
- We used a battlefield zero, with the sights considered acceptable zeroed within an MOA or so of target center.
- There was a different attitude towards safety. In the class we would move around a lot and engage targets at different locations and distances. We kept the rifles loaded and chambered, and we would toggle safety off while sights were on target, and then back on when we lowered the rifles, reloaded, or moved. We were careful not to flag others, though.
These were the similarities between the programs:
- Importance of NPOA, sight alignment, and sight picture
- Consideration for what distance you zero your sights at, bullet drop, and HOB
I'm not sure if you've ever found yourself in a situation where you're surrounded by people who don't speak any English, but that was the closest analogy I can compare being in the class to. It felt like having to learn a new language. There was a fundamental difference in methodology and mindset that dictated a different way of using my rifle than I'd done before. Now when I pick up a rifle, there's two different ways I can operate it. I guess my question for the group is how do you which to use and when? In other words, when should I speak "Marksmanish" and when should I speak "Carbinese?"
I have taken a couple defensive carbine classes in the last couple of years, so I can relate to your experience. The most recent was about a year ago, and the instructor was constantly harping on my trigger technique, which is pretty good by Appleseed standards.
As to the "language" issue, it's not that hard. If you are at an Appleseed event, or a CMP or NRA match, go with what we teach at Appleseed. If you're shooting 3-gun or some patrol carbine type match your classic marksmanship skills will slow you down and probably hurt your score. Although, the first defensive carbine class I ever took, we were engaging targets at a distance in the dark with weapon-mounted lights. When I got tired of missing I went into a classic offhand position and cleared the targets. The instructor gave me an attaboy for "doing what it takes to get a hit". So there are exceptions.
Thanks for the insights, EZ3!
I think it's important to know the "context" for the class. Defensive classes tend to fall into "military/leo" or home defense. Mil/LEO is normally geared toward CQB situations (close quarter battle), so short to medium range and the user is assumed to be wearing armor and prone is used sparingly. This all results in different stances and a different recommended methods to use the trigger (similar to defensive pistol). Home defense use of a carbine might assume engagement ranges from contact to 25 yds. It's unlikely to "defensively" engage a target at 100 yds for example. This use of the carbine might emphasize retention, maneuvering around obstacles and fighting inside of shooting range (i.e. butting/spearing with the rifle.) In both of these sorts of uses, rapid trigger reset and rate of fire may be much more important that 4 MOA accuracy and the Rifleman's Quarter Mile. I would be surprised to see prone emphasized in a home defense carbine class.
I always think the marksmanship skills from Appleseed as being more akin to those that might be used by a sniper, hunter or high power competitor. Those situations will normally optimize accuracy/precision and you'll often see the recommendation to follow through by holding the trigger back. This is also a good type of class to perfect the fundamentals. There are many defensive shooters who haven't had the time to master the fundamentals are limited in their progress as a shooter. The prone position which is in line behind the rifle is normally "supported" prone which may mean shooting off a bag, tripod or magazine. This in line position will help the recoil to be straight up and down on a rifle shot without the benefit of a sling. (It also decreases exposure to others trying to shoot at you :) )
Anyway, those are some of the considerations/differences. There are others. It's nice when your instructor is familiar with different "contexts" and can explain the whys for the different techniques we all teach. Another reason for a Rifleman to always seek to improve their skills.
Sometimes a teacher . . . always a student.
Hmm, I can feel your mixed emotions, so let me provide a philosophical framework. A paradigm shift implies a global change in philosophy or skill set. That's too gross of a movement. I think of these different disciplines as a spectrum. On one end we have marksmanship purists like you and I, on the other, run-and-gun CQB/tactical scenario training. The middle is filled with infinite combinations thereof. You identified similarities between two different programs, but I see them as commonalities applicable across the entire spectrum of shooting. The six steps to firing a shot, knowing your rifle, having DOPE, understanding ballistics, etc. are rifleman skills regardless of whether you're carrying a tactical carbine or a wooden battle rifle.
If given the choice, I would like to shoot prone because it's most stable and I have the highest probability of making a good shot. However, sometimes we have to shoot using our other positions. Similarly, I would always choose to shoot from flat terrain, in a perfect position, and slung-up with plenty of time, but a tactical/different scenario might not allow us to execute our purist ideals. Rather, with a mastery of fundamentals, we can adapt marksmanship to less than ideal situations. Like seated, kneeling, and standing, the situation may be less desirable, but doable nonetheless. I consider 3-4 position slow and rapid rifle marksmanship to be the epitome of marksmanship; it is the basis for all other shooting. Part of this framework is the understanding that everything else is a (less desirable, IMO) variation.
So how should you choose? I guess based on your knowledge (which it sounds like you gained some at this course) and the situation. Scenario: can you lay prone, sit, or kneel, if no, then stand. Do you have something to rest on, if yes, go to standing supported. In my mind, you were learning variations in positions to fill knowledge gaps throughout the middle of the spectrum. If you're always applying the fundamentals while you're problem solving variations in position, support, equipment, etc., then you can't go wrong. I think we have a leg-up on folks who enter the spectrum somewhere other than 3P rifle marksmanship because we are fluent in language of marksmanship, which transcends all shooting disciplines. When you feel like you're in a different world, shooting pistol, or shooting 100-yard snap shots using a two point sling and carbine, find the common ground like you did; "NPOA, sight alignment, sight picture".
I applaud you for trying something new and expanding your skillset. I am curious from all your reflection if you have a greater understanding of what Appleseed teaches after trying to apply the basics to another segment of the spectrum? Was there anything you learned, like a position you tried or engagement you fired, that truly could not be considered a variation of the purist fundamentals?
Other things to consider.
At Appleseed we shoot side-on, for stability and recoil absorption.
A "Tactical" course are going to teach you to be square on, to keep as much of you covered by your plate carrier as possible, the sides aren't hardened/plated.
Single point sling for better maneuverability.
As already stated, basically slapping the trigger to get shots downrange as rapidly as you can hit a 12" x 18" target.
I somewhat disparagingly refer to these courses as 'how to use a rifle at pistol distances'. That said, the skills taught in the typical carbine course absolutely have a place in the Rifleman's tool kit. Not all skills are useful in all situations; not all rifles are useful in all situations. (imagine room clearing with a Barret M82?!) It is incumbent upon the Rifleman to determine what tools & skills are most useful in any given situation.
The skills that we teach at Appleseed are meant to instill a baseline skillset that will enable our students to make consistent hits on man-sized targets from 100 to 500 yards, from field positions, without the use of any artificial support; these are specific skills, for a specific scenario. The skills taught at a defensive carbine course are similarly specific to the scenario in which they are intended to be employed. There is little crossover in skills, as there is little crossover in scenarios. Being proficient in one, does not necessarily preclude being proficient in another...
One of the first things we ask our students to do, is to leave what they have previously learned in their vehicles. Bring an empty cup, and we will fill it to overflowing. You should do this with EVERY course you take. Learn what is being taught, excel at it, then employ those skills as the situation dictates.
Quote from: Captain on January 14, 2022, 11:16:07 PM
I think it's important to know the "context" for the class. * * *
I always think the marksmanship skills from Appleseed as being more akin to those that might be used by a sniper, hunter or high power competitor. Those situations will normally optimize accuracy/precision and you'll often see the recommendation to follow through by holding the trigger back. This is also a good type of class to perfect the fundamentals. There are many defensive shooters who haven't had the time to master the fundamentals are limited in their progress as a shooter. The prone position which is in line behind the rifle is normally "supported" prone which may mean shooting off a bag, tripod or magazine. This in line position will help the recoil to be straight up and down on a rifle shot without the benefit of a sling. (It also decreases exposure to others trying to shoot at you :) )
Anyway, those are some of the considerations/differences. There are others. It's nice when your instructor is familiar with different "contexts" and can explain the whys for the different techniques we all teach. Another reason for a Rifleman to always seek to improve their skills.
Sometimes a teacher . . . always a student.
I agree with this view. Appleseed doesn't teach active, moving-while-shooting strategies. For this reason, nothing one would learn -- strategically, tactically -- in a defensive carbine class would be something you'd want to bring to Appleseed as a teaching point.
The OP's mention that the carbine class emphasized "muscling the gun," I suppose that's super-shorthand, but it sounds like the teacher isn't very good at marksmanship if that's truly his view on how to keep the muzzle as steady as possible in repeat fire. "Muscling," especially if suggested to male students, will yield terrible results. It may be applicable to some female students since women, as opposed to men, instinctively try to be soft & finesse-oriented in their athletic movement approach. But you'd want to be sure you're talking about supple strength and not brute force or gross movements.
Sling as retention and not shooting support is, I think, because the training paradigm is for patrolling and not strategically chosen positional shooting. Improvised monopod off the magazine buttplate is the functional make-up call for not using sling as support. I wonder if military training suggests and provides small polyfill rest bags to let the mag buttplate sit more steadily on irregular surfaces. Small package, big dividends.
As said above, it's riflery at pistol distances. Do we teach the same methods at 100 as at 400 and further? Not precisely, so it's worth considering that other things can be done at 25 yards.
We have a local PRC group that thinks they're the cat's...rump, and I am tempted to accuratize a Garand and go show them how it's done.