NOTE>> this post was moved from general discussion to here in reloading<<<
I actually read this article while in Denver Int. Airport on the way home from vacation so I didn't buy the mag but got enough interest to make a post about this. I am posting this as a new topic here instead of a add-on direction change of the LTR discussion.
I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo. They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity. Anyone have any experience with this? I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.
It was a really good article, thorough and point proving so I just wanted to kinda start a discussion about this really. Any takers?
Ax
seems to me most (all?) match .22lr is subsonic
As I recall it's the transition from Super to Sub sonic that causes the 'trouble' however in a 4moa game I doubt most would notice the difference.
FWIW I really like the Rem SubSonic hollow points
I think the article was presenting the arguement that is the bullet stayed below the speed of sound that is did not experience the effects of transitioning from sub to super -sonic effects. The arguement was the better groups they were getting with each brand of ammo that was subsonic than the standard velocity ammo. And, hey, I am all for it if I get better groups and better performance. Especially when I am going to the Evansville Appleseed this October and gearing for a rifleman's badge!
The reason I posted this was to see whether anyone had any actual experience with this, or had even given it a thought? Since many are building (like myself) or already have a LTR and are transitioning to .22LR for serious practise, It was my thoughts that this would be another step in the process of the evolving LTR here on/in the RWVA of learning and producing rifleman results.
Anyone with experience please fess up as I am out of .22LR as of yesterday and about to purchase a decent amount off .22 very soon.
Ax
Serious competition shooters worry about this stuff. A lot of supersonic target ammo is going subsonic just before it reaches the target. The cure is to shoot subsonic ammo but you need to test it in your rifle to see what kind of groups you get. If you are a A class international shooter and have a spot on the Olympic Team you need to worry about things like this. If you paid less than $2000 for your 22 rifle. Don't even think about it. Just buy what functions well in your rifle.
Doug in Virginia
OK, a few points here.
First, the problem is going from super-sonic to sub-sonic. If was the other way to, the World Record group would NOT be held by a high velocity cartridge. The current record 100 meter 5 shot group in one particular Bench Rest class is 0.061", and was shot by a friend and local shooter in 1981. That's pretty SMALL. I can pretty much tell you beyond any doubt, he was using a 6mm PPC, and he and his brother aren't known for shooting LIGHT loads. Besides, there really isn't a true transition from sub-sonic to super-sonic, as that happens in the barrel.
Secondly, you will NEED to review the ballistics for your particular ammo to see if it is above or below super-sonic at 25 meters. That's only 82 feet, and it is likely that the velocity of standard ammo is still super-sonic at that distance, if it even was at the muzzle. I'll get to some info at the end of this.
Thirdly, the speed of sound is 1128 ft per second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound)
Fourthly, what really matters is results, and there are more factors than velocity transition that will affect accuracy. Quality control during manufacture is one at the top of the list You should try small amounts of each ammo to see which is more accurate in YOUR rifle. Then, go with that info.
Lastly, some food for thought:
CCI Standard Velocity ammo, 1070 fps mv, 977 fps at 50 yards.
CCI Green Tag Target amm is the same velocities as above.
CCI MiniMag HV ammo, 1235 fps mv, 1092 at 50 yards.
CCI 22 CB Long ammo, 710 fps mv, 656 at 50 yards.
Winchester Super-X 40 gr RN ammo, 1255 fps mv, 1017 at 100 yards.
Winchester Super-X 37 gr HP ammo, 1280 fps mv, 1015 at 100 yards.
Winchester Xpert 46 gr HP ammo, 1220 fps mv, 956 at 100 yards.
Winchester Super-X 40 gr RN, standard velocity ammo, 1150 fps mv, 976 at 100 yards.
Federal Premium Gold Medal, 1080 fps mv, 994 at 50 yards.
Federal Premium Gold Medal, 1200 fps mv, 1075 at 50 yards.
Federal Premium Copper Plated HP, 1260 fps mv, 1104 at 50 yards.
I could go on, but, see a pattern here?
That Federal ammo that starts out about 1200 fps and above, stays super-sonic at 25 meters plus some.
That and better quality control might make it more accurate.
I see Doug just weighed in, and I agree with most of that. I actually have a .22 rifle that cost less than $2K that can make use of the better ammo.
I'll close with a morsel of thought. Don't try to equipment shop to improve your groups, until you've fixed the "nut behind the buttplate". Get yourself up to speed first, before trying to tweak your equipment excessively. Yes, if you have a 10/22, make the recommended modifications to it, but, remember, what you're REALLY doing is putting it back to the way they made them 40 years ago (except the sights, of course). That's right, my Remington 513T doesn't need the trigger lightened, the mag release lengthened or any of that. Even if it was a non-target model, the mag release and trigger would be OK as is.
My 10/22 will shoot 5/8" groups at 25 yds. (prone) with Remington Golden Bullets and my poor eyesight.
The rifle is stock except for Tech Sights and the 1 & 1/4" web sling. Factory white wood stock, factory trigger and internals, factory barrel, etc.
5/8" is plenty good enough for an AQT. Like VA Shooter (he's got more shooting experience than I'll ever have) says, buy what shoots best in your rifle that's worth the groups you get. If you can shoot 1" groups with $12 a brick .22 ammo why buy $21 a brick .22 ammo to shoot 5/8" groups when the score's not different? Buy more ammo, practice more and improve your skills.
My experience is that most of the "match" quality guns and ammo are bought by people who really doen't see (on paper at the range) the benefit of what they spent their money on. Don't try to buy better scores, earn 'em through practice, perserverance and more practice. If you do that, one day you'll be good enough you'll be able to use that "match" quality rifle and ammo that costs so much money.
Now we are talking! Now that is information I can use. Thanks, that is what I was hoping to get, information. I plan using just like was posted, all factory except the sights and sling.
A service rifle with a match trigger? How many "rack grade main battle rifles" have a target trigger? I've only fired one 10/22 so I don't know if mines better or worse than average I just know that it's my belief that a part of "learning" your rifle will get you to the point where you really won't notice that trigger much one way or the other. The slack (loose slop at the beginning of the trigger squeeze) shouldn't matter because you only take it up once or twice during a stage (preparing for that first shot of the magazine). Creep (that worse distance the trigger moves between the end of slack and the "bang") can be harder to deal with if its bad enough but I believe practice with that (poor??) trigger will still improve your shooting. The beauty of that .22 is the cheap practice and lots of it! 500 rnds. of practice for the cost of 20 rnds. of .308. The greatest deal on earth! Get to an Appleseed, get those basics, go home, practice (a lot, its cheap, remember) and before you know it you'll be shooting rifleman scores with such regularity that you'll be looking for the next challege - becoming an instructor and teach what you learned to others.
Most rifles shoot better than the guy carrying them.
Quote from: ax238 on August 07, 2007, 05:55:50 PM
NOTE>> this post was moved from general discussion to here in reloading<<<
I actually read this article while in Denver Int. Airport on the way home from vacation so I didn't buy the mag but got enough interest to make a post about this. I am posting this as a new topic here instead of a add-on direction change of the LTR discussion.
I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo. They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity. Anyone have any experience with this? I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.
It was a really good article, thorough and point proving so I just wanted to kinda start a discussion about this really. Any takers?
Ax
I have done a lot of experimenting with different 22 rifles and ammunition. I haven't done an exact count but currently have in excess of a dozen different brands/types of 22 ammo.
My opinion is that the "heat" comment between subsonic, standard, Hi Velocity, or Hyper Velocity in 22 LR is a non issue.
The more powder you burn (the faster you push the bullet) the more noise you are going to make. The speed of sound in air at 70 degrees F is about 1128 fps. Below this speed in general I describe the sound as POW. Above this speed I describe it as BANG!
Relating group size, the two most important factors are the quality of the bullet and the quality of the barrel and crown.
A good quality barrel will shoot what the average shooter considers "great" groups with almost any bullet.
A poor quality barrel is usually very picky about which bullet will group descent.
My two sons & two grandsons visit frequently and to assure I have enough guns I have several Ruger 10/22's.
Two of these prefer CCI Standard (a subsonic round at a velocity of 1070 fps) and will shoot 10 round groups at 100 yards that average less than 2".
One will average 5" groups at 100 yards with the same CCI Standard but will average 2 ½" with CCI mini mag.
Another will not shoot less than 4" groups with anything other than some variation of Ely, Ely Standard being the best (brown box and also sub sonic at 1050 fps). With the Ely standard it will shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yards all day long that are 2" or less.
I have used Remington Subsonic HP and Ely Subsonic HP for pest control in my Remington 541. The only testing I have done has been at 50 yards with this combination. Groups average about 1" with either in the Remington 541. They are not magic, but are quieter than High Speed HP ammo.
Just because one ammo groups well in my gun or in a gun testers gun of the same make as yours DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL GROUP WELL IN YOURS.
Hope this helps.
In my 22s, standard velocity rounds (subsonic) are in general more accurate than the high velocity rounds.
The one that stands out in my boy's rifle is the CCI blue label standard velocity. The one that stands out in my K22 Outdoorsmans Masterpiece is the CCI CB (WAY subsonic). The one that stood out in my rifle was the CCI green label standard velocity.
I did have a pistol that loved hypervelocity rounds, but I think it was the exception to the rule that proves it LOL!
I bought a bunch of Remington subsonic ammo, thinking it would be as good as the CCI but for less money - none of my sticks preferred it, so I don't believe it's as much the 'subsonic is better than high velocity' as it is 'use what your stick likes the best'. Even so, since it just so happens that mine like subsonic ammo better, I think that's a trend - and why I said 'in general'.
That having been said, since CCI is more expensive, I typically run either Federal or Winchester bulk ammo through the sticks. It's not as accurate, but more than plenty accurate for field position use. Think of it this way..... $10 will buy 550 rounds of Federal, or 200 rounds of CCI - and I can't shoot the difference reliably from field positions.
On the mythical sonic transition, that's bunk. Look at Bisley, England. If anyone believes a 303 is supersonic at 1600 yards, I've got a bridge to sell them. Certainly you gain significant improvement in long range accuracy from maintaining a velocity greater than the speed of sound, but the myth that a bullet loses stability when slowing to subsonic velocities is proven to be bunk.
FWIW, a friend of mine is a big Sharps shooter. He, and one of his buddies, took a sniper course with their sticks - 45 caliber Sharps. I asked the instructor how they did, and he was impressed with the long-range accuracy of those sticks, and in particular the fact that they were so accurate at 1K. Since those 45 caliber round-nosed slugs were moving out with a muzzle velocity of about 1800 fps, I'm betting they were more than plenty subsonic at 1K. Even so, he did comment on the authoritative whack they'd sound from the iron maidens - no question about a hit or not LOL!
Years ago I read an article that said right at the time of the introduction of smokeless powder (around the late 1880's, early 1990's) the best black powder rifle marksmen of that day could put 10 shots into a 12" circle at 1000 yds. The mid range trajectory for some of these rounds was right at 55 feet.
Yup, it's slow. Yup, it takes a long time to get there. Yup, that big bullet packs a wallop, even that slow.
for most back-yard situations i find sub-sonic rounds {namely the 22.CB} from CCI out of a 28 inch or longer barrel are not only extremely accurate at short to mid range, but they generally make no audible noise other than the sound of the guns action working, and the impact of the round as it hits the target. and as far as their effect on any game-animal they always seem to drop as if hit in the head with a steel pipe. in my experience i would not hesitate to call the sub-sonic 22.LR cartridge the 12ga slug of the small game world!
Yep, as Nickle noted, the reason for subsonic .22lr and Black Powder loads (like the old .45-70 Gov't) being more accurate is that they don't go back down to subsonic speeds from supersonic speeds.
That's the part that messes with a bullet's flight. And the reason that even though M14 and M1 sights go to 1000m/yd and then some, with standard 147gr (7.62) or 150gr (.30-06) ammunition, you won't get the the 3-4 MOA at 1k that you could expect at a "mere" 500 or 600 yds.
Also the reason that 800yd match shooters load the heaviest bullets they can and push them as fast as they can go, hence .300WM with 190gr+ BTHPs running at near-on 3000fps MV to get to 1000 yards. Those bullets will retain their velocity pretty darn well, and they start with as much velocity over the speed of sound that can be safely attained, for a wider margin of accurate range.
Here is my standard advice for choosing .22 ammo:
Start with the cheapest ammo you can find and work your way up the price list. When you find an ammo that YOU think is delivering accuracy worth the price you're paying for it, you've found YOUR ammo!
You can pay 2c a shot for .22 ammo or you can pay 10c a shot or more for it. You probably won't find that the 10c a shot stuff shoots groups one-fifth the size of the 2c a shot stuff.
BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!
Quote from: Snake45 on December 18, 2007, 09:00:56 AM
BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!
That is often the case. However they won't
always do it. Low cost can be correlated to low quality control. Thus periodically you'll have more fliers than with a significantly higher priced target or match ammo.
This is the dirty little secret that few talk about when bragging on how well their cheap .22 ammo shoots.
If you can live with these little surprises, then things are great. When you can't (ie match shooters, etc.), then you buy higher quality ammo that also shows the accuracy that you need. Then you'll get consistent, predictable, good performance.
.22s are so much fun, yet quite enigmatic....
Quote from: Atlas Shrug on December 18, 2007, 12:10:56 PM
Quote from: Snake45 on December 18, 2007, 09:00:56 AM
BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!
That is often the case. However they won't always do it. Low cost can be correlated to low quality control. Thus periodically you'll have more fliers than with a significantly higher priced target or match ammo.
Well, I've been testing and periodically re-testing these five kinds of ammo since 2004, and I've actually found each to be very consistent as far as what you can expect in accuracy. If a particular gun/ammo combination is going to throw flyers, there will be a fairly consistent number of them lot to lot.
I've only noticed two exceptions to this. I got hold of one lot of Federal Walmart Bulks that was notably
more accurate than every other lot of it I've ever shot. And I had one lot of Winchester Dynapoints (purchased from an internet wholesaler and not a local retailer) that was slightly but measurably less accurate in certain of my very accurate rifles than all the rest of them I've tested.
IMHO, almost any .22 rifle/ammo combination is "accurate enough" for quality practice, unless you are a
very, very good shooter. I shoot a lot from standing (because I think if you can improve your standing, your other positions will follow) and can tell you that I can shoot a series of targets with one of my "most accurate" rifle/ammo combos, and a series with a combo that is only good for groups about twice as large, and if I showed you both series of targets, you'd be very hard pressed to tell which had been shot with which gun.
if u are looking for high accuracy at a generally low expense per round, i think that all of u guys have the right caliber but are using the wrong bullet.
if your looking for a good relatively steady velocity along with accuracy and fair price, i personally prefer the 22 Win Mag {AKA. 22WMR for u that don't know}
I have found it to be the PERFECT round to just reach out and touch something. be it either targets, coyotes, or foxes. the end result is always the same,- a nice little hole placed right where i want it.
The problem with .22 WMR is that it requires a whole 'nuther rifle. :D
Lots of folks already have a .22LR, so that's why the discussion of such.
I hold that for the kind of shooting we do at Appleseeds, any cheap, fairly acurate, reliable ammo will suffice. My LTR uses the cheap stuff and will do 4MOA day in and day out, and that's better than I can shoot, day in and day out. :(
not sure what 22 mag ammo costs these days but i'll bet it's not too much cheaper than .223 reloads.
I know an old guy that's killed hundreds of squirrels over the years with .22 shorts. A shot to the head puts 'em away. He's told me more than once that on the rare occasion that he misses the squirrels usually keep gnawing on that hickory nut and he gets 'em with the second shot.
Don't know what shorts cost these days or how hard they are to come by. And until someone can explain why that old guy's Savage M29 doesn't have a burnt out spot in the chamber from shooting shorts in it I'll not believe the old wives tale about shorts ruining a LR chamber. In fact the rifle states (on the barrel) that it is good for shorts, longs and long rifles.
.22 WMR (AKA .22 Magnum) ammo isn't real cheap, and is going to dry up sooner or later.
I'm not saying it isn't good. Too many deer jackers up my way prefer it, because it gets the job done, and is fairly quiet (enough to not raise interest).
For a small game hunting round, it's good. More open areas of the country call for a centerfire, but only because the distances are further. A coyote shot up my way is from 100 to 300 yards (or more). The .22 Mag will work at 100, but before 300, it's going to run out of steam. More urban states, like Southern New England, different story, the ranges are much shorter. This is where the .22 Mag pays off, for a hunting round.
As to Appleseed use, check the price of .22 LR (bulk packs) versus .22 Mag versus .223. You are going to need to plan on 500 rounds for an Appleseed. $10 is HARD to beat for 2 days worth of ammo.
.22 Shorts is another issue. The irony is that .22 LR ammo can be bought CHEAPER than .22 Short ammo. That's simply due to .22 LR being available in bulk boxes.
Getting back to the original question that started this thread,,,
I've tried two or three brands of subsonic ammo. Most expierience is w/ Remington,,,I've found all that I've tried quite accurate. Are they in general better than higher velocity stuff ? I don't think so. The last couple years I've been hunting w/ CCI Velocitors and found them as accurate as anything I've tried in the 22s' I usually shoot. The Winchester PowerPoints shoot very well, as did their old SuperSilhouette.
For bulk 22, the CCI Blazer has always performed well.
Like the man said,,,at these prices, you can afford to try any number of different offerings and see what makes a winning combination. Then their is always the anomaly of a particulatly good or bad lot.
Warning: comments from a recovering BR shooter ;D
While I agree (mostly) that you can't buy your AQT score, I do think you can help yourself on the way by making sure your rifle/ammo/trigger combination works well. I was scoring low 200s at my first AS with 10/22 with a pretty mediocre barrel. After that I spent a bit of time dry firing and getting into position, but I also bought a reasonably good barrel ( just a Volquartsen, not a Hart or Krieger) and bedded my barrel for 3 inches (OK it was bedded with a thin piece of cardboard in front of the action block but it works). I also spent a little time at the bench (I know that is an evil word on this sight but can be very useful to eliminate variables) picking ammo. Tried several types from Walley world Federal fodder up to Eley Tenex. I found a modestly priced Aguila standard velocity that shot very well and posted one 5 shot group of 0.080" at 25 yards and averaged about 0.120". This is what I used to qualify with. I tried both of the Remington subsonic and the Aguila SuperSniper heavy bullet rounds to be moderately accurate but no where near the better Match rounds.
I was going to make Rifleman come hell or high water so wanted any advantage I could get. What did this do for me? Well, it gave me the confidence that my rifle and ammo were doing what they were supposed to do and any misplaced shots were purely the guy pulling the trigger. I pasted that target on the side of my ammo can to remind me the whole weekend that it was me, not the rifle. The benefits were probably 99% psychological, but don't underestimate the benefits of confidence in your ammo choice.
I don't see much difference in ammo and most barrels at 82 feet. I was shooting prone groups in a ragged .40 hole with bulk Golden Bullet ammo and a stock 10/22 barrel. If you get out to 50-200 yards, you might see a bigger difference. Personally, I'd rather spend $200 on another 10/22 and build up another LTR to bring more people to the shoots. The whole idea of Appleseed is that you can make rifleman with a rack grade rifle. I can understand the psychological difference of adding more accuracy parts to the rifle, but the same advantage can be made by practicing dry fire enough to build that confidence.
I'm surprised that no one more experienced than I has chimed in yet.
Every .22 rifle is an individual, both in terms of accuracy and reliability, in regards to brands and/or velocity levels of ammo.
I have one rifle that shoots Winchester Power Points (HV and a pretty blunt HP bullet) more accurately than anything SV, and feeds them fine, and others that shoot SV straighter and feed plain RN better.
At 25m, shooting a QD-AQT target, the accuracy differences are probably important only at the margins of barely shooting 210 or barely coming up short, but reliability is a big factor.
Quote from: ax238 on August 09, 2007, 04:51:36 PM
I think the article was presenting the arguement that is the bullet stayed below the speed of sound that is did not experience the effects of transitioning from sub to super -sonic effects. The arguement was the better groups they were getting with each brand of ammo that was subsonic than the standard velocity ammo. And, hey, I am all for it if I get better groups and better performance. Especially when I am going to the Evansville Appleseed this October and gearing for a rifleman's badge!
With my admittedly low experience level, I must agree with previous posters that at 25m you probability will not notice a difference super or sub sonic ammo. The difference will be from wpn to wpn and the ammo that each one "likes". Just try several and use what your 10/22 likes. If the sub gives accuracy & reliable cycling go for it. Just think all, that testing gives you more trigger time. ;D
With my 10/22, although several brands of ammo give acceptable accuracy they will not reliability cycle the action since it was new from box. I've scrubbed, scoured and cleaned everything, the rifle has approx 4000 rds through it and still only "likes" CCI Mini Mag which works very well, and is more $ (still cheaper than .223).
Two shooters at our Riley, IN shoot ran into the same problem (stove pipes) using Federal & Remington bulk pack. Handed each a box of Mini Mag and problem gone. Need more research!
usafe
For me it is ALL about reliability. I haven't found an ammo yet which will not shoot far better than 4MOA out of my 10/22s. Personally, I found an ammo which my rifle likes. I now shoot Federal Automatch (~$14 for 350) when I want the ultimate in reliability. I shot an entire AS weekend without a misfire and it continues to be the most reliable ammo for me while I have been practicing since.....
it's all about the maxi-mags
my 10/22's LOVE the "MAXI-MAG" ammo from CCI
I bought a 10/22, put a set of tech sights and a GI sling on it, bought a couple of boxes of Remington Golden Bullets, the 550 round bonus pack, and managed to shoot a couple of rifleman scores on the second day of my first Appleseed. That was the first formal rifle instruction I've ever had and I attribute those rifleman scores solely to the instruction and encouragement I received from both the instructors and my neighbors on the firing line. Just try it the Appleseed way. Sometimes the hardest, really the hardest thing is to let go of all those bad habits one builds up over the years and the way we think we know how to shoot. If you don't think your rifle will consistently group, put it on a bench (anathema, I know) and shoot a group with it. Then you can see if it's the rifle or the loose screw behind it. Good luck and have fun on the journey!
I shoot mostly subsonics, but for a different reason.
For blasting ammo most anything will work, for a match I use good ammo.
What the extra expense gets you is consistency. Consistency in rim thickness, priming compound, bullet, velocity, etc. But none of that matters if your rifle doesn't like the ammo. It will just be consitently inaccurate.
I have never had a misfire with Eley, Lapua, RWS, S&K or Aguila. I can't say that about Winchester, CCI, Remington or Federal. I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of .22, I use the cheap stuff for blasting and even some practice. When I travel 2000+ miles to shoot in a match more often than not it will be Eley Tenex in my gun. It's not always the most accurate but it always goes bang. The $15/50 price tag is insignificant compared to the cost of the trip and the match fees.
That being said I've shot rifleman with a CZ452 and 2 different 10/22's all shooting CCI Blazer bulk pack ammo. Once your shooting becomes limited by the accuracy of your ammo then you can experiment with finding the best ammo for your rifle. Understand, once you find that ammo, buy all you can with the same lot number because once it's gone you may need to start all over.
CCI Mini-Mag and SubSonic both give excellent reliability in both my 795 and 10/22. The SubSonic is the only one I will use when scores are being tallied though it just gives a much better group with far fewer fliers. Practice though remains CCI MM its just good ammo.
and now, Rich shows up to throw a monkey-wrench-type question into the whole discussion.....
standard-velocity .22LR, as mentioned in that other post on "page 1" vary between just-barely-supersonic up to about 1300-ish, using bullets between 40gr (slower) and down as light as 36gr (faster).....standard twistrate for .22LR seems to be 1:16
the subsonics use about a 60gr bullet in a shorter casing
Here's the question.....For those of us that are shooting Cienerized AR's with (old) twistrates of 1:12, or (newer) rates of 1:9, assuming proper torquespec on the nut behind the buttstock, might the heavier, slower 60gr bullet behave better with the faster twist?......or would we expect the low velocity to not work right, in a barrel that was intended for a projo of approximately the same weight (55-62gr) @ 3000-3200fps?
Or should I get some subsonics and go to the range to tell you what I found out? >:D
Try some and see how hour rifle does.
My CAR15 only has a 10.5" barrel with a 1 in 9" twist and it shoots both Rem. Golden Bullets and Federal bulk pack just fine at 25 meters.
Your rifle might shoot different ammo better.
However, for me, the idea of the .22 conversion it was to shoot something cheaper than .223 ammo, the cheaper the better if it gets the job done. Spending big bucks for target quality or specialty ammo just isn't "in my picture". But I might try it if I couldn't find anything else that shot accurately.
haven't found any yet :(
If they have debunked the sonic transition its the first Ive heard of it. Physics is physics an object moving though a sound barrier is buffeted lighter objects are affected more than heavier so a 40 gr bullet is going to suffer more so than a 120gr. Subsonic is more consistent if nothing else so far fewer fliers. When you want the highest score possible you do what you can be that working on form or the rifle or the ammo.
My situation requires I do all I can since for me there is no prone or kneeling, its aggravating knowing I once could score rifleman any time I wished and now struggle just to do respectably. If something works for a shooter fine let em do so since when you are behind the rifle nothing else matters but you and the target. Confidence is as much a factor as anything so build it any way that you can.
I'm not convinced on the benefit of subsonic ammo for 25M, especially with a 4 MOA target.
At 25M the bullet is still supersonic when it reaches the target, so it never trasitions the sound barrier down range; it only had to go supersonic in the barrel.
I get an occasional flyer, but the vast majority of misses are me, not the ammo.
Sure my 22LR bulk doesn't group as tight as centerfire, but it is more than good enough for 4MOA targets.
Quote from: Old Dog on December 18, 2007, 03:38:12 PM
Don't know what shorts cost these days or how hard they are to come by. And until someone can explain why that old guy's Savage M29 doesn't have a burnt out spot in the chamber from shooting shorts in it I'll not believe the old wives tale about shorts ruining a LR chamber. In fact the rifle states (on the barrel) that it is good for shorts, longs and long rifles.
I agree with this. I have an old Winchester model '06 pump action 22 that will shoot 22 short, 22 long and 22LR. It's as accurate with any of these. With the 10's of thousands of rounds that have been shot through this gun over the years it is hard to believe how accurate it still is. The only issue I have found in shooting a lot of the short ammo and then going to longer is there is sometimes a build up of spent powder in the chamber that can cause the longer brass to stick. Regular cleaning takes care of this issue.
A long time ago, my Daddy told me to not shoot shorts regularly as they would scrape a little lead off entering the barrel and they would eventually make it hard to chamber a .22 lr. So I didn't.
It seems logical that could happen, and it'd also be possible to clean it out with a little piece of metal harder than lead if you knew you needed to do it.
CCI Blazer, Fed #510 and 510b as well as Federal Automatch is all about the same ammo. Shoots < 1moa in all rifles I have tried it in.
I used to care a lot more about this exact topic. I spent a lot of time and money searching out and buying (sometimes exotic) .22LR ammo in my quest for accuracy. But Benchrest shooting and Appleseed qualifying are two different disciplines. For Appleseed qualifications (and just plain fun shooting) find out whatever works in your rifle and buy that... and it doesn't have to be expensive. By "works," I mean you can count on it to reliably go boom (and cycle the action if you have an autoloader) every time you pull the trigger. At the 25m distance we're talking about, with a 4moa target, you can get it done without breaking the bank, or even going into the subsonics (which are getting harder to find lately with all the rage being on high velocity, super-high velocity, ultra-high velocity, maximum velocity, blah, blah, blah). Just buy ten different brands of inexpensive .22LR ammo, head to the range, try 'em out, watch for reliability and grouping patterns, and you'll probably come up with three or so that you'll feel confident with taking with you to an Appleseed. And what your rifle #1 will like as its favorite load will not be the favorite load of your rifle #2, which will be different still from your buddy's rifle. They can be picky, but once you find their favorite fodder, buy up and have fun.
I had been wondering this myself. I shot my Appleseeds with a CZ452 (bolt action) in .22WMR using CCI TMJ 40 Gr. There were no issues of reliablity or accuracy. Then I changed to a S&W M&P-15 with a converter. Federal 38 Gr Hollow Points (local cheap stuff) had so many fliers that I gave up trying. I had shots appear 2 inches off target! I do not yet know if anything shoots well from it. I had hoped to benefit from an autoloader that I already owned but the 1 in 9" twist does not like those. I will bench my new rifle aquisitions and make sure they like the ammo. I suspect they will out shoot me, but it is better to find out before I start losing points. I may look into subsonics but I expect the High Velocity load will work out.
I'd really love to meet the person that shoots better than his rifle/ammo in prone unsupported at 82 ft. Buy the cheapest stuff that doesn't jam.
My $0.02 worth, but as as 30+ year re-loader and pistol & rile shooter, the paper doesn't care if the bullet is traveling 650 ft/sec or 3,200 ft/sec- it's whatever gets the bullet to travel consistently to its destination. Very few times did I go above the starting levels when reloading, they did their part of the job.
Re: subsonic, if you can afford it, and it does the job, it's the best choice. There's less recoil, muzzle climb, and muzzle flash- it helps you do your part.
Tom
Quote from: dart67eb on October 14, 2010, 11:34:37 AM
I'd really love to meet the person that shoots better than his rifle/ammo in prone unsupported at 82 ft. Buy the cheapest stuff that doesn't jam.
I shoot Aguila Subsonics, I have never had a misfire with them. I can't say the same about bulk pack, or even regular Remington, Federal, Winchester, CCI, etc.
I can tell the difference in ammo at 82 ft, CCI and Wolf is OK but not as good as the Aguila.
When shooting competition I would shoot Eley Tenex, not because it was the most accurate in my gun, but because it went bang every time and that was more important.
Quote from: clodhopper on August 25, 2007, 01:43:46 AM
Most rifles shoot better than the guy carrying them.
you used the word guy not me :D
I think that would depend on who was on the trigger at a AS with a 99$ gun and standard velocity bulk ammo i shot better then 500$ CZ's and 15$ box of 50 rounds of subsonic ammo. But that was at a AS how would my 99$ setup hold up to the same CZ's at a 100yd mini palma or silhouette. I think that a good gun like a CZ 452 American and something around 1050 fps may be best. So i guess the question is what are you going to shoot?
A 99 dollar rifle in the hands of a person with some training and cool confidence (quite often a woman) will beat a 2500 dollar rifle in the hands of a hot head who thinks he is to smart to learn anything (quite often a man like me).
More expensive rifles have nicer triggers and better finish.
The sights are very important, a 500 dollar CZ has adequate iron sights, If you have good vision.
For real fine shooting you need to be able to see the target.
If you want to shoot good spend 500 dollars on a scope (crutch) and a trigger job.
The badge of rifleman is more about being able to operate the rifle compently through transitions, mag changes, distractions under pressure like hot brass thrown on you and a short barreled .308 next to you and limted time.
Not so much about being able to hit a gnat in the zit on his a**.
For appleseed 25 yard shooting, inexpensive bulk pack ammo that has the ability to function your rifle is good enough.
And that is what I use
For what its worth
I have watched Riflemen after a few shoots take used non reloadable brass case's (7.62x54 ,,7.62x39,8mm etc,,) set it at the 25 meter line and race each other to hit all there targets and then the other guys,,,What did they use for ammo and Rifles ? cheap old LTR's and Cheap bulk pack ammo.
Watched one of those same Riflemen print a 1.7 moa group @ 1000 yards with an G.I m-1 garand and cheap m-2 ball ammo just a mc style shooters jacket and a web sling and an old work glove.
Wade
Although most are saying that the subsonic rounds are better in accuracy I disagree. I used CCI Stinger rounds in my bolt action Savage Mark II. I tested CCI Hyper velocity, Federal High, and Remington subs. The CCI did best. The bullet travels much faster giving it less air time for the wind to change its direction even a fraction of an inch. Also when the bullet is moving down the barrel at an accelerated rate the rifling in the barrel spins it at a faster rate. History tells us that the rifling and the increse in velocity gave better accuracy. Just some food for thought.
Doug :---
Quote from: Bolt Gunner on May 29, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
Although most are saying that the subsonic rounds are better in accuracy I disagree. I used CCI Stinger rounds in my bolt action Savage Mark II. I tested CCI Hyper velocity, Federal High, and Remington subs. The CCI did best. The bullet travels much faster giving it less air time for the wind to change its direction even a fraction of an inch. Also when the bullet is moving down the barrel at an accelerated rate the rifling in the barrel spins it at a faster rate. History tells us that the rifling and the increse in velocity gave better accuracy. Just some food for thought.
Doug :---
The problem is that you didn't test any real Match ammo in that Savage. There is a reason why some shooters pay $10, $12, $14 or more per 50 rnd box of ammo that is subsonic. That reason is the extreme consistency of that ammunition.
For Appleseed Stingers or Blazer or often even bulk pack ammo works fine. But you need to test it in your rifle and make that decision yourself. My oldest 10/22 loves Eley Club and the old Remington CMP white box match ammo. It is a bad day if all shots aren't touching in the center of a square or the 400 yard target. My silhouette rifle likes the Eley as well. On the other hand I have a bolt rifle that likes faster ammo, and a conversion that seems partial to heavier bullets such as the Aquila 60gr.
Testing ammunition and knowing what your rifle prefers is just part of the process of "learning your rifle." Plus, it get's you out shooting and that's always good. Just remember, what works well for someone else may not work well for you.
Now about the rifling, the rate of twist is the rate of twist. If the velocity of your bullet exceeds the rate of twist, it will stop engaging the rifling. In general this is bad. Most .22's are rifles with 1 in 16 twist. This will stabilize the 40 gr bullet well across a range of velocities. A faster bullet will have less drop due to velocity. But it would be good to remember that most .22lr match ammo is subsonic and it is subsonic for a reason. The reason is accuracy in match guns.
Test your rifle and your ammo. Know what they are capable of, practice and shoot to your potential.
Mike
I have 3 varieties of subsonic .22s (Fiocchi, Remington and PMC Moderator) as I have a suppressed Ruger MKIII pistol and you are defeating the purpose of the suppressor if you ammo makes a supersonic "crack." That being said, I have experimented with the subsonics at 25m when shooting practice AQTs. I haven't shot a lot, as I reserve the more expensive subsonics for the suppressed pistol. I've found them to shoot pretty good groups, but the POI is about an inch lower due to the lower velocity and it makes it hard to "hold over" for stage 4 if you aren't willing to tweak the sights.
22lr ammo at our default range: Subsonic vs Standard (if it is standard velocity CCI then it runs at 1070 fps which brings to subsonic).
22lr ammo at Sonic speed experiences a little bit of a tumble at 50 yards. Within 25 yards the only thing subsonic will get you is reduced recoil so your follow up shot, sight picture, is easier to keep aligned.
If you go to far down the FPS scale, say below 1000 fps then you may run the risk of a mechanical failure on a semiautomatic ie.. a fail to eject and empty shell.
22 subs can reach a ways and be well under 4 MOA.
Here is a KD session with a rifleman student running a M16 with suppressed 300 Blackout going up against the Shoot Boss using a suppressed cricket and running remington subtonics (some of the least consistent subs out there).
The cricket kept up and into the 3 MOA targets at 220 yards and made some 2MOA hits when the shooter was able to stop laughing.
Suppressed 300 Blackout M16 vs Suppressed 22 Cricket at 200 Yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJMatOOnvc)
Looks like the same or similar article on the topic from "Fields and Stream" about the Pro and Con of Subsonic Ammo.
" smallbore competitors know, subsonic .22 LRs are more accurate than supersonic .22s because they exhibit 37 percent less wind deflection due to the disproportional increase of air resistance near the sound barrier. "
https://www.fieldandstream.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-subsonic-cartridges/
Most of the Arkansas Appleseeders, who have some level of instructor hat, shoot CCI ammo at the Appleseed events in our state. Some shoot 40 gr MiniMags (1200 fps). Some shoot Standard Velocity (1070 fps). In the instructor corps, there is also occasional Aguila SuperExtra. We, that shoot CCI Standard Velocity, insist that the groups are smaller. The higher power stuff is more reliable in a stock Ruger 10/22. Suffering a stovepipe during a transition stage of the AQT will ruin your day.
The chamfered bolt modification will eliminate the reliability issues with CCI Standard Velocity, or at least get it to where the problem is no more common than when shooting MiniMags with a stock bolt.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251031
If you don't want to go through the trouble, a JWH bolt has the same adjustment.
I don't know if it was here or over on rimefirecentral.com. If it was here, I can't find it right now.
Anyway, somebody did an experiment that included lots of different rifles and lots of different ammo. They found that CCI standard velocity worked best in Ruger barrels, and Wolf worked best in Valquartsen barrels. My daughter's rifle has a Valquartsen barrel with a recessed crown. So I bought some Wolf Match Target. They definitely grouped better than CCI SV in her rifle.
I can shoot 3/8" groups with my rifle and at 25 yards using CCI SV. There is no reason to pay more and feed my rifle with Wolf ammo.
I fired 50 rounds of CCI standard velocity yesterday morning.
Air temp in the 20's, with a nice breeze.
Kept the ammo and mag in a pocket to keep it warm.
The firing was standing, slow fire. Lowering the rifle off my shoulder each shot in preparation for a schutzen style match.
The ten shot strings of fire were separated by 10 minutes or so of mag warming in my pocket.
The SV ammo was noticeably weaker sounding with slow bolt velocity. Compared to mini mags.
The rifle did function until about the eighth round on each mag.
My theory is when the temperature of the ammo got to a certain point, the ammo just did not have enough energy work the action.
CCI standard velocity ammo is also generously coated with soft wax bullet lube, not good in the local shooting environment populated by wind and dust. Made worse with all the instructors, and shooters tromping around, checking safe, prepping mags, instruction, and going down range.
I shot my 233 score with Gemtech subs. I did not use a suppressor. Shot straight out of a Ruger 10/22. I love Gemtech. Clean and accurate.