Project Appleseed

Hey all,

So I've been grinding away at off hand service rifle for the last 8 or so months.  Matches start soon, very excited.  Lot of dryfire, plus weekly trips to the range.  Had to get a 22 upper when ammo disappeared.  It's gotten better, especially after one of the high power shooters at the range gave me a few pointers and told me to get a jacket.  I have a lot of problems I'm still working through, and for the most part I know generally what I'm doing wrong, it's just taking me awhile to work through it.

One thing I am stumped on is horizontal drift either in the middle of a string, or between consecutive strings. So one example from yesterday's dryfire, here's the first group of the day (yes I know there's a lot of vertical spread, like I said, I have problems haha):

https://i.imgur.com/WN3fCm6.png (super small picture - and bear with me on the X there, it is pulled right due to the initial sighters of the day while adjusting my Scatt, the real center of the group is a bit left of the centerline)

The immediately consecutive group has the same bad vertical spread, but it's shifted 2-3MoA to the right (except for the two shots on the left where... stuff happened I dunno):

https://imgur.com/pNggUSW (also very small picture)

I don't know.  My feet do not move between strings, I keep them firmly in the same spot for 40 or 50 shots in a row. I can't tell if it's:

• my arm relaxing, not being straight up and down enough, causing it to drift to the side?
• leaning?
• twisting at the waist?
• something else?

Anyways, I can keep >>90% of shots inside the 5 ring now.  I'm still pretty happy so far with my slow and steady progress, but any pointers specifically on horizontal drift would be appreciated.

Actually I'll take any and all tips - if you have other ideas about the vertical stringing I'm all ears too (though I have a lot of things I know I need to work on there, so I'm less "stuck", more just... bad lol).

Thanks in advance!

Moy,

Without seeing your exact position, how you get into it, and how you 'settle' into your NPOA, it is very difficult to properly diagnose what's going on with your target; that said, I'm going to give it my best shot, in the hopes that the advice given will steer you, and possibly others, into getting better groups from the off-hand position.

Finding your Natural Point of Aim in the standing position is a far greater challenge than in other positions; the fact of the matter is that every major muscle group in your body is at some level of tension when standing with a rifle, and this is all the more true when you are forced to not use a sling, such as in NRA High Power or CMP matches.

When you index your body to the target line, you should start at about a 90° angle; your feet should be parallel to each other, also 90° to the target, spread just wider than shoulder width apart.
Your knees should be slightly bent.  Your hips should be 90° to the target.  Your shoulders should be square to your hips, and neither forward or aft of your hips- NO LEANING.
Stand tall from the waist up.  Your head should be fully erect.  Turn your head to face the target, with both eyes open.  Are you able to comfortably view the target with both eyes?  If not, rotate your whole body, using your support side foot as the pivot point, and try again.

Once you've gotten your body in a position from which you can readily engage the target, it is time to add the rifle.  There are many different approaches to mounting the rifle to your shoulder, but the most critical aspect is that you need to bring the rifle's sights up to meet your previously-established line of sight to the target.  DO NOT bring your head down to the rifle, bring your rifle up to your eyes.  Take a moment to look through the sights of the rifle- are you on YOUR target?  If so, close your eyes, while otherwise maintaining position.  Twist at your hips, first to your support side, then towards your trigger side, then back to the 'middle'.  Take a breath in, then let it out, coming to your natural respiratory pause.  Open your eyes.  Where your sights are pointed is your Natural Point of Aim.  Make adjustments to your position as necessary until you can repeatedly close your eyes, twist at the hips, then open your eyes and be on target. 

A point of note.  It is not unusual for an 'eyes closed' respiratory pause to leave you low on the target.  If you are otherwise centered on the target, but consistently low at your respiratory pause, all is not lost.  At this point you merely need to use your slow, steady exhale to establish the vertical hold on target. 

Now that you've established your NPOA, the rest is fairly simple; you merely need to fire every shot in the string precisely like you did the previous shot- to the point where you should dismount the rifle from your shoulder, relax as much as humanly possible, then bring the rifle up and engage the target *in one smooth motion*.  From the time your rifle is pressed into your shoulder pocket and goes horizontal, to the time the rifle goes BANG, should be no longer than 2-3 seconds.   Standing there, forcing the sights on to target, is a losing proposition.  Either your position is correct, and your sights will naturally go to the target, or its wrong, and you'll be fighting yourself to get the sights to go where they need to.  There is no middle ground. 

When practicing standing, it is a terrible idea to shoot dozens of rounds in succession.  Each round fired needs to be fired as if it is the first round in a string.  If that first round doesn't impact the 5 ring, STOP.  Make the rifle safe and step away from the line.  Evaluate why you missed, then start over.  Once you've gotten to the point where you can reliably walk up to the firing line and engage the 5 ring with your first shot, THEN it is time to start adding more shots to the shot string. 


It's relatively easy to achieve 35/50 on stage 1 of the AQT.  Consistently getting 45+ is another matter altogether.  If you follow the practice as outlined above, consistently getting 40/50 will be a walk in the park. 

When shooting at Appleseed, rather than considering that you're shooting that 100 yard D-Silhouette 10 times in two minutes, consider that you've got 10 D-Silhouettes to engage with one round a piece, and ONLY two minutes to do it in. 

Excellent advice above. The horizontal dispersion means you are not in NPOA. Some people need a more open stance (facing more toward the target), some need a very closed stance. Check NPOA just as in the other positions - get sights on the x-ring, then close your eyes and breathe, then open them and check. If the sights are no longer on the x-ring, you were muscling the rifle and need to adjust your position. Note that the angle of the feet relative to the body should be fixed in a natural way, so use a shuffle-step to move POI left or right. Then check NPOA again.

High-power is different from AS in that you have so much time between shots to rest. In Appleseed, too many students try to hold the rifle on target for too long without resting. You can see their wobble increase as they go. I advise students that after no more than two shots, lower the rifle so that the support arm is resting on the ribcage and breathe twice to freshen the muscles.

It also helps, especially during the winter months, to strengthen the upper body with weightlifting. The stronger you are, the less effort it takes to hold the rifle in position, and the less the effort, the easier it is to hold still.

Thank you Gent's,

Agreed!

Jerry

Even after all these years of practice I still have problems with standing offhand.

All the techniques discussed above are quite good.

What helps me is trying to relax best as I can.

Beer can story: Before Appleseed I used to get together with friends and just do lots of shooting. One of the things we'd do is setup beer cans (empty of course) and shoot them at 50 yards. It was a piece of cake for me. However if it's an AQT at 25m then I start to tense up. Hey - don't want to miss. And the harder I try the worse the outcome. The more I relax the better I shoot. After all those AQTs aren't shooting back right?

Other thing I do is setup my NPOA a little below where the X is. Exhale. Then bring the sights up into the X and then squeeze when the sights are on target.

For some reason if I am imparting a bit of movement into the rifle it's steadier. However if I try and hold the rifle dead steady on the target it wobbles.

Relaxing can be easier said than done - at least for me. Having an AQT always makes me a bit more tense since it's for score. I've joked that I need to get some labels in the shape of a beer can that say 'Budweiser' and put them on the X. Then I'd hardly ever miss.

So relax. Remember BRASS? Breath, Relax, Aim, Squeeeeeeze, Shoot.

Typically when I see standing Shots that are drifting low, it is a symptom of fatigue which leads to bad trigger squeeze.  The remedy is to take a break between each shot (or 2) to ensure the shots are in the black!

Here is my standing routine.  It includes exercises I learned from competitive shooters.  Some will consider it heresy, as it's not something we teach on the line.  However, it will build the skills and muscle memory to consistently clean Stage 1 of the AQT with a centerfire rifle.



The purpose of these drills is to increase strength, stamina, and balance in the standing position.  If you apply yourself, you will become very consistent in the position.  The effort you put into these drills will determine what you get out of them.  Ideally, do these drills six days per week.  There are two exercises in this program.  First is a holding drill.  Second is a series of balance drills.  Alternate the holding drill one day and the balance drills the next.

The key to effective standing is to use bone support and gravity to your advantage.  Shots drifting low is a position/NPOA problem.  If the rifle feels heavy, the sling is improperly tensioned or the position is poorly built.

Stack weight vertically.  Knees over feet.  Hips over knees.  Shoulders over hips.  Support hand at the balance point of the rifle.  Anything that throws you off center (leaning back, kicking your hip out, etc) is a disadvantage because you are now fighting gravity.  In that fight, you'll lose every time.  It's science, yo. 

Have the discipline to get into the hasty sling properly every time, should you choose to use one.

Safety:  Check to make sure your rifle is clear.  Then check again.  (It'll be a tough sell to the jury when you claim you shot a family member or neighbor on accident.)

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Part 1:  Holding Drill
This drill is done on the attached circles target from a distance of about 8 yards.  The goal is to start at the largest circle and master a hold in that circle.   Once the hold is mastered, move to the next smaller circle.  Progress will be quick in the beginning and then become more challenging.

(https://blog.gritrsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/rifle-drills-1.jpg)

Suit up with whatever gear you wear shooting.  Acquire your Natural Point of Aim*, shift it onto target, double check it.  Start your interval timer and do 10 sets:
a.   Mount the rifle properly in standing position using the sling of your choice.  It's important you practice mounting it the same way every time.  Consistency is King.
b.   Hold position for 45 seconds.
c.   Break position without moving your feet, rest for 15 seconds

For the first two weeks of the month, you will only be holding.  No trigger work during the exercise.  Focus on good position and balance.  During the last two weeks of the month, incorporate one dryfire shot per set.  Focus on perfect form and perfect 6 Steps execution.

Because you need to breathe, you will not hold on target for the entire 45 seconds.  Use that movement to practice coming down onto your target and breaking the shot.  Slow, steady, stable.

When you can keep your wobble in the circle during the time you're on target, you've mastered that circle.  Next practice session, move to the next smaller circle until you master it.

Ten sets should take you about 10 minutes.  As you build endurance and your hold gets smaller, consider increasing a couple sets each week until you can do twenty sets.

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Part 2:  Balance Drills 
These drills are done in the standing position.  The goal is to refine your fine motor skills and improve balance, resulting in a more stable standing position.  There are four stages to this drill:
1.   Balls of Feet
2.   Heels
3.   Standing on one foot
4.   Alternating ball/heel

You will do all four stages each exercise period.

To begin, suit up with full gear as you shoot, minus shoes (socks are optional).  Health note:  If you have low or weak arches, recommend you wear your shoes especially at the beginning. Otherwise, you may aggravate your arches and it will set you back.


Stage 1: Place a length of 2x4 flat on the floor.  Step onto the board with your feet at your normal shooting stance… using only the balls of your feet.  (Heels will be in the air, unsupported.)
a.   Mount the rifle in standing position while looking through the sights/scope.
b.   Hold position for 25 seconds.
c.   Break position and rest for 5 seconds.

During your rest, you may either step off the board or lean back and touch your heels to the ground.

Perform this for five sets.


Stage 2: Mount the rifle.  Step onto the board with your feet at your normal shooting stance… using only the heels of your feet.  (Balls of your feet will be in the air, unsupported.)
a.   Mount the rifle in standing position while looking through the sights/scope.
b.   Hold position for 25 seconds.
c.   Break position and rest for 5 seconds.

During your rest, you may either step off the board or lean forward and touch your toes to the ground. 

Perform this for five sets.


Stage 3: Step off the board.  Get into standing position and mount the rifle.  Stand with your feet approximately a hip width apart. 
a.   Lift your left foot and balance on the right.  Hold position for 25 seconds.
b.   Place your left foot down, rest for 5 seconds
c.   Lift your right foot and balance on the left.  Hold position for 25 seconds.
d.   Place your right foot down, rest for 5 seconds

Perform steps a-d for five sets.


Stage 4: Step onto the board with your feet at your normal shooting stance.  Mount the rifle.
a.   Step onto the board with the heel of your left foot and the ball of your right foot.  Hold position for 25 seconds.
b.   Break position, rest for 5 seconds. 
c.   During your break, swap feet.  Stand on the heel of your right foot and the ball of your left.  Hold position for 25 seconds.
d.   Break position, rest for 5 seconds. 

During your rest, you may either step off the board or place your elevated toe/heel to the ground. 

Perform this for five sets.

All four stages should take you about 17 minutes.  Persevere and you'll build good balance.


* To find your natural point of aim in standing:  Relax your body (especially shoulders), close your eyes, move the rifle back and forth in slowly decreasing horizontal arcs.  (NO FIGURE 8s!!!)  When it comes to a natural stop and you're at your respiratory pause, open your eyes.  If you're on target, great.  If not, shift from your trigger side foot until you are.  Then do it again to confirm.

Thanks all, these are great ideas!

I agree the underlying problem is definitely NPOA.  (Always is, isn't it?)

Everyone's ideas here give me a lot to work through, this is wonderful.

ItsanSKS is probably also right on the money - hard to tell without seeing.  If I figure out a good lighting, recording, and editing setup, I'll try to post videos side-by-side of me going through the motions, and the scatt trace at the same time.  That may be beyond me at the moment though.

I have a grand total of one video, the last time my wife came shooting, which was in mid August.  Actually it's so long ago, I'm not entirely sure it's worth sharing since a lot has changed, but here it is (10MB file warning): https://imgur.com/a/QvPzYYD.

And yes for clarification, this is for high power, so about 50-60 seconds per shot off hand, not the ~10 seconds per shot at Appleseed.  I'm hand feeding single rounds, so I couldn't take multiple shots in a row anyways even if I wanted to.  There's always a break between shots, setting the rifle down.  If I'm practicing somewhere and don't have anywhere to set it down, I'll cradle it in my arms.  Often (usually? 70%+ of the time?), I won't like my hold, and I'll set the rifle down multiple times on the same shot, without pulling the trigger at all.  50-60 seconds gives me enough time to go through two or three full cycles of everything without worrying about pace.

Also - no sling allowed (no sling allowed to support, sling has to be attached to the rifle, but can't be used).  Actually by now, I find the sling hurts me more than it helps me while standing, I don't know exactly why.  But anyways, it's not allowed by the rules, so I'm not spending time figuring out that particular mystery.

All these tips give me things to look out for during practice.  Thanks again all!

QuoteSafety:  Check to make sure your rifle is clear.  Then check again.  (It'll be a tough sell to the jury when you claim you shot a family member or neighbor on accident.)

Definitely!  Triple measure here:

1. I don't use a magazine, it's a single round feeder sled, so there's no possibility of putting ammo in it (it's just a solid block of plastic, can't hold bullets)
2. Rifle comes out and has a chamber flag when going to my practice spot, and I don't bring bullets with me.
3. I use a backstop in the form of a door and a washing machine behind it, about ~25 feet away.

Hot damn y'all

I read all of the replies a couple times earlier in the evening.  Then, just after replying above, I went and did some hold practicing while thinking about all of the advice, followed by a single ten shot group:

(https://i.imgur.com/LKtIvjB.png)

That 43.5mm is scaled, center to center including the "flyer".  Of course, since this is a dryfire practice camera, the "flyer" is 125% me just pulling a shot poorly; it literally can't be anything else - there's no wind, there's no bullet, and we didn't get a sudden earthquake in Seattle right before that shot, just me.  But, even with that shot, that's a 3MoA group, and the main chunk of 9 shots is closer to 2.3MoA or so.  So.... yup.  Nice!

Obviously can't take that to the bank just yet, for at least three big reasons:

1. I'm 95% sure that won't be fully repeatable since my average live fire group size is still about 5-6MoA, and it's unlikely I just got twice as good.
2. more importantly, you'll note that the 185mm average trace speed means the wobble is moving me edge-to-edge on the hold area over four times in the second before breaking the shot.  185mm is better than my average (~200mm?), so that's showing a more realistic amount of the improvement.  The stability of the hold needs to come way down, hopefully the suggested drills will help :)
3. many issues will arise at the 200 yard line with live fire, especially stepping up to 223

But man, that is encouraging.

Thanks again all!!  Will continue digesting this through my thick skull.

Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on February 11, 2021, 09:46:25 PM
Here is my standing routine.  It includes exercises I learned from competitive shooters.  Some will consider it heresy, as it's not something we teach on the line.  However, it will build the skills and muscle memory to consistently clean Stage 1 of the AQT with a centerfire rifle.

* To find your natural point of aim in standing:  Relax your body (especially shoulders), close your eyes, move the rifle back and forth in slowly decreasing horizontal arcs.  (NO FIGURE 8s!!!)  When it comes to a natural stop and you're at your respiratory pause, open your eyes.  If you're on target, great.  If not, shift from your trigger side foot until you are.  Then do it again to confirm.

So particular thanks again here for the reminder on the moving the rifle thing.  I'd totally forgotten about that over the last 6 months.  It doesn't work quite like I remember when there's no sling involved, but it does help me find the balance point better. It really highlights any leaning balance issues I have.

I did notice that I uh, ran out of adjustment range on moving my foot closer in to bring the target point up.  The buttstock height is limited since it's service rifle (no fancy 3p stock), so it can't get the back up as high as I'd like.  I totally could do it while dryfiring, but I need to keep the bottom tip wedged otherwise under 223 recoil it'll slip out.  I may need to experiment letting out more length of pull, or changing up where I rest the rifle (maybe even ball a fist and rest it on the delta ring?).

I have found my standing score improved by practicing on reduced size targets. For instance, post a 25M AQT at 50 yards or shoot 1" squares from offhand at 25M. When you shoot the 100 yard equivalent it will seem much much easier. "Aim small, miss small".

Hey all,

Over on the high power forums, someone posted this video from a German air rifle (only standing) coach on adjusting standing NPoA (he translates it literally from german, "point zero")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdXsSzRKXXw

Some of that won't work because the rifle isn't really adjustable.  Also this is pretty focused on slow pace single-shot standing, not appleseed pace.  But still, useful stuff.

Also in that video you can see them balancing on a specialized board for balance practice; I looked it up it's ~$250 (!).  I think I'll take MO's idea of using a 2x4 instead lol.

$250 piece of wood what the heck

Old topic but the following may help some people.

One of the problems with the SCATT is that it can reinforce negative feedback.

For offhand: start the year dryfiring at a blank wall NO TARGET, NO SCATT. Your goal is to execute perfect dry fires, no movement of the sights when the shot breaks. You should likely start trying to get 10 perfect dry fires. This includes setting up your position.  In the beginning it might take 15 or 20 or 30 or more shots. Bring the gun down between shots, just as you would in a match. Some people  go so far as to set up all of their gear including scope and stool.

Next, you can begin dry firing using the scatt or a target point on the wall. The same advice goes here you are looking to make perfect shots. It should be much easier because of the work that you did on the blank wall. But don't use the SCATT to shoot simulated matches. The scores on the scatt don't matter. They never will. What does matter is the quality of your hold, the quality of trigger control, the stability of your position etc, etc.

Finally, live fire for score. This is the important thing that the SCATT doesn't do. Don't accept mediocrity. But don't beat yourself up over a bad day.

Bassham (Gold Medal 1976) calls this sort of training, in his case dry fire, group fire and then live fire for scope, progressive training.

Since you are interested in High Power, I am attaching some of the best offhand instruction I know. This is Dan Lowe, an Olympic Rifle shooter, Distinguished Rifleman, all round good guy,  and someone who can on demand shoot 10 after 10 after 10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28nqSeSfTY

Yup definitely agree about mostly ignoring scatt scores, though for high power they're close enough to reality most of the time because the targets are nice and big.  Scatt really shines in being able to verify movement that you thought you saw through the sights/scope, and diagnosing bad hold/triggering issues.

> Since you are interested in High Power, I am attaching some of the best offhand instruction I know. This is Dan Lowe, an Olympic Rifle shooter, Distinguished Rifleman, all round good guy,  and someone who can on demand shoot 10 after 10 after 10.

I re-watch Dan's video quite often, ever since it got posted on the high power forums.  I also pay him for coaching sometimes :P  Dan is an all-around awesome guy.

Though at this point my standing scores are okay enough (195-ish/200 average) that I need to make up points elsewhere.  I practiced nothing but standing for too long.

Where are you losing your points?

Mostly at 600

For awhile it was a combination of 600 and rapid, but I've made serious progress on rapids by myself in the last couple, 391/400 over the last two.  Especially rapid prone is cleaning up nicely.  Rapid sitting I still have a really bad habit of not correctly settling into NPoA after mag change, but I know what I'm doing wrong there.

At 600 though.... it is not as pretty.  I still sometimes shoot under 180 :S  I know of at least a couple problems I'm working on (trigger control especially), but not enough to make up the whole difference there.

For rapids, taking the time to get the NPA and then making sure that you take good shots is important. Just remember that the best cadence and/or the fastest finish don't get you points. I remember shooting a 99 in sitting one day and having a team coach tell me that perhaps if I hadn't finished in 47 seconds I would have shot 100. He was right. Taking the time to get and confirm the NPA and then making sure that the sight or crosshair is where it needs to be does get you points. Realistically you want to a 99 or 100 at 200 and the same at 300. Some time ago, I discovered that I shot better rapids when I had to transition than when I did not. The reason was that I was much more picky about getting NPA and checking it in prep time when I had to transition.

At 600 issues can be trigger control, they can also be accepting less than perfect. When you have NPA and get to respiratory pause there should be virtually no movement of the sight. I say virtually because I see a heartbeat sometimes. I discovered that even if a heartbeat looks 8 ring, you can shoot 10's and x's. Don't accept ok at 600, don't give in to just trying to get it over with when its a bad day, make 20 good shots. I say these things because I have been guilty of them.

What is your goal with high-power? Is it a Distinguished badge, P100, national championship? Having a goal is a major motivator to putting in the work. And it is work. Good luck.

For now a goal is high master.  I did the whole traveling for tournaments earlier in life (not shooting), now I'm pretty content to just stay local.

Goal will never be national champion haha.  Generally I just like getting better.

Mostly I just like the community though, lot of really nice people.

I just did a bunch of reduced distance sitting strings last weekend - 97, 98, 99, 100, 100, 100.  It's like I forget what to do for the first string, and then kick myself and don't do that anymore.