Hello, getting ready still for Appleseed rifle clinic in Carroll, Ohio and trying to be as ready as possible.
Currently learning/practicing the prone position with only the internet as my teacher. I'm linking two videos of me practicing from different angles. I was wondering if you could give me any feedback. I think I have the general idea. I need to do more stretching/yoga stuff since my back and neck are pretty stiff (I have lots of bad discs which doesn't help). I'm not using the sling currently. I mainly want to be able to do the correct position fairly comfortably before the clinic in two weeks.
A couple of things I'm wondering if I'm doing right are: Am I low enough to the ground? The height I'm at in the video seems the most comfortable. Am I too close to the charging rod handle? My nose almost touches it. The stock is fully extended. I feel like to get back any farther the stock ends up too low.
https://youtu.be/jhDgRu7IG_A (https://youtu.be/jhDgRu7IG_A)
https://youtu.be/907fh8-gdQY (https://youtu.be/907fh8-gdQY)
Try pulling elbows in under the rifle. Looks like your aiming point is low. Use your electrical outlets (the center screw) as your aiming point. Check your point of aim by getting your NPOA, then closing your eye, breathe in/out, open you eye and check your NPOA. Shift around the support elbow to reestablish NPOA on target. Close eye, breathe, open eye and adjust. Until you open your eye and the sight alignment and picture on on target.
Hi Freestate!
Awesome videos, you are putting in good preparation for the event! Below are some tips that might be helpful:
I like to mount the sling attachment on the bottom of the handguard and as far towards the muzzle end as possible.
I like to get my support hand as far up the handguard towards the muzzle end as possible.
With my support hand further up the handguard, I can get my support elbow under the rifle.
This also allows for about a 30% cant of my body to the rifle.
As far as height off the ground, that is really a personal preference. I've found the further the support hand is up the handguard, the flatter I become. So I go real flat on the ground. But play around different locations for the support hand (all the way up to the sling attachment & halfway up).
Also, unless you plan on using the Back-up front & rear sights as your primary sighting system, I like to keep them folded down as to maximize the field-of-view in the Red Dot scope. As I like to ensure the Red Dot is centered in the glass while centered on the target.
Have fun continuing to practice and at the Appleseed event!
First of all, thank you for your interest in attending an event. You've made at least one good decision for 2021; hopefully your new year will be full of good decisions.
Second, the camera angles you've provided are excellent. Those are almost exactly the angles from which an instructor is going to be observing your position at your upcoming Appleseed event.
Feedback on your position:
- Your support hand is too close to your body. Ideally, you want that hand all the way out at the forward sling swivel, so that it cannot move under recoil. Your ability to get your hand that far forward will be determined on your flexibility/comfort.
- At about the 4 second mark in 'angle 1', you move the rifle directly to the shoulder pocket, with your trigger elbow already planted on the ground. The fact that you are able to do this tells me that your position is incorrect. If you continue to do this, you will notice that recoil will tend to move the buttstock around in the shoulder pocket, and you will have to use too much pressure with your trigger hand to keep the stock firmly planted. At your Appleseed event, you will likely be offered a sling to use, if you don't have one already- USE IT.
The primary purpose of the sling is to force your body into the proper position, and to help stabilize it once there. The sling has its own learning curve, but trust me, it's worth it.
Again from angle 1, your getting into the position is nearly textbook perfect.
Step by step for getting into prone (once the sling is on, and adjusted properly)
- Go to your knees
- Stretch forward, and plant your trigger hand on the ground, while simultaneously using your support arm to keep the muzzle in a safe direction
- Plant your support elbow as far forward as you can
- Rest your hips on the ground
- Roll your body slightly towards your support side, while bringing your trigger knee up as high as you can get it.
- With your trigger hand, grasp the buttstock of your rifle and plant it firmly into your 'shoulder pocket' on your trigger side shoulder.
- Stretch your head forward on the rifle, establishing proper sight alignment
- Move your trigger hand from the buttstock to the grip of the rifle.
- Tuck your trigger elbow in close to your body, then roll back towards your trigger side, until your trigger elbow is firmly planted into the ground.
- Close your eyes.
- Take a natural breath in, then naturally exhale. During exhallation, mentally focus on RELAXING EVERY MUSCLE IN YOUR BODY.
- When you're relaxed, and at the natural bottom of your breath, hold your breath.
- Open your eyes
- Determine where your sights are, in relation to the target.
- To move your sights UP, shift your hips away from the target, while keeping your support elbow planted (vice versa to move your sights down)
- To move your sights LEFT, shift your hips RIGHT, while keeping your support elbow planted. (vice versa to move your sights right)
- Once your sights are *on target*, take a natural breath in. You will see your sights move below the target.
- FOCUS on the sights.
- Exhale your breath naturally, while maintaining front sight focus.
- When you reach the bottom of your breath, your front sight should be exactly on target. If it's not, adjust your position as previously described.
- Once your sights are exactly where you want them, and your exhale is at its natural stopping point, and your body is fully relaxed, you have achieved NATURAL POINT OF AIM.
Quote from: KSFlatlander on January 01, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
Try pulling elbows in under the rifle. Looks like your aiming point is low. Use your electrical outlets (the center screw) as your aiming point. Check your point of aim by getting your NPOA, then closing your eye, breathe in/out, open you eye and check your NPOA. Shift around the support elbow to reestablish NPOA on target. Close eye, breathe, open eye and adjust. Until you open your eye and the sight alignment and picture on on target.
Thanks!
Quote from: BillP_556 on January 01, 2021, 03:25:58 PM
Hi Freestate!
Awesome videos, you are putting in good preparation for the event! Below are some tips that might be helpful:
I like to mount the sling attachment on the bottom of the handguard and as far towards the muzzle end as possible.
I like to get my support hand as far up the handguard towards the muzzle end as possible.
With my support hand further up the handguard, I can get my support elbow under the rifle.
This also allows for about a 30% cant of my body to the rifle.
Thanks! I'll move my sling attachment there. Still trying to get a feel for the sling and how to use it as support, especially getting it adjust correctly.
Quote from: BillP_556 on January 01, 2021, 03:25:58 PM
As far as height off the ground, that is really a personal preference. I've found the further the support hand is up the handguard, the flatter I become. So I go real flat on the ground. But play around different locations for the support hand (all the way up to the sling attachment & halfway up).
OK I'll give that a shot. Some of the other stuff I was reading was saying to keep the support hand as close to the breach as possible.
Quote from: BillP_556 on January 01, 2021, 03:25:58 PM
Also, unless you plan on using the Back-up front & rear sights as your primary sighting system, I like to keep them folded down as to maximize the field-of-view in the Red Dot scope. As I like to ensure the Red Dot is centered in the glass while centered on the target.
I'm possibly going to take the red dot off for the clinic and just use the iron sights. Haven't decided yet. The red dot is nicer with my aging vision.
Quote from: BillP_556 on January 01, 2021, 03:25:58 PM
Have fun continuing to practice and at the Appleseed event!
Thanks! Looking forward to it. My youngest son (age 22) is coming with me. I got him a TCR22 that we're planning to go shoot tomorrow.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on January 01, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
Feedback on your position:
- Your support hand is too close to your body. Ideally, you want that hand all the way out at the forward sling swivel, so that it cannot move under recoil. Your ability to get your hand that far forward will be determined on your flexibility/comfort.
- At about the 4 second mark in 'angle 1', you move the rifle directly to the shoulder pocket, with your trigger elbow already planted on the ground. The fact that you are able to do this tells me that your position is incorrect. If you continue to do this, you will notice that recoil will tend to move the buttstock around in the shoulder pocket, and you will have to use too much pressure with your trigger hand to keep the stock firmly planted. At your Appleseed event, you will likely be offered a sling to use, if you don't have one already- USE IT.
The primary purpose of the sling is to force your body into the proper position, and to help stabilize it once there. The sling has its own learning curve, but trust me, it's worth it.
I've got a two point sling (VTAC) and I also got one of the GI slings for the clinic. I can't use the two point sling for supported shooting like this that I can figure out. I'm working with the GI sling (though I need to change my forward mount as indicated in another reply). Should I get into position, adjust the sling, get back on my knees and get into position again? I'm not quite sure exactly where to put the sling on my arm and how much to tighten when adjusting.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on January 01, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
Again from angle 1, your getting into the position is nearly textbook perfect.
Getting into position was the easy part. Getting back up is the challenge haha.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on January 01, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
Step by step for getting into prone (once the sling is on, and adjusted properly)
- Go to your knees
- Stretch forward, and plant your trigger hand on the ground, while simultaneously using your support arm to keep the muzzle in a safe direction
- Plant your support elbow as far forward as you can
- Rest your hips on the ground
- Roll your body slightly towards your support side, while bringing your trigger knee up as high as you can get it.
- With your trigger hand, grasp the buttstock of your rifle and plant it firmly into your 'shoulder pocket' on your trigger side shoulder.
- Stretch your head forward on the rifle, establishing proper sight alignment
- Move your trigger hand from the buttstock to the grip of the rifle.
- Tuck your trigger elbow in close to your body, then roll back towards your trigger side, until your trigger elbow is firmly planted into the ground.
- Close your eyes.
- Take a natural breath in, then naturally exhale. During exhallation, mentally focus on RELAXING EVERY MUSCLE IN YOUR BODY.
- When you're relaxed, and at the natural bottom of your breath, hold your breath.
- Open your eyes
- Determine where your sights are, in relation to the target.
- To move your sights UP, shift your hips away from the target, while keeping your support elb
ow planted (vice versa to move your sights down) - To move your sights LEFT, shift your hips RIGHT, while keeping your support elbow planted. (vice versa to move your sights right)
- Once your sights are *on target*, take a natural breath in. You will see your sights move below the target.
- FOCUS on the sights.
- Exhale your breath naturally, while maintaining front sight focus.
- When you reach the bottom of your breath, your front sight should be exactly on target. If it's not, adjust your position as previously described.
- Once your sights are exactly where you want them, and your exhale is at its natural stopping point, and your body is fully relaxed, you have achieved NATURAL POINT OF AIM.
Thanks. This list is excellent. I might record me reading it slowly and play it while I practice it.
Thanks for the detailed response!
Thanks to everyone that gave feedback on prone position. It all clicked today, and while my body isn't looking forward to hours of prone position, I feel like I'm in a much better place going into this weekend.
Also, for anyone with neck issues (in general or shooting specific), I found this video on a simple exercise that helps. I've been doing it before, after, and during when I practice and it has helped a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHDQpi3Uzw8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHDQpi3Uzw8)
Quote from: freestate on January 01, 2021, 12:13:19 PM
...snip-
Am I too close to the charging rod handle? My nose almost touches it. The stock is fully extended. I feel like to get back any farther the stock ends up too low.
https://youtu.be/jhDgRu7IG_A (https://youtu.be/jhDgRu7IG_A)
https://youtu.be/907fh8-gdQY (https://youtu.be/907fh8-gdQY)
I for one am a huge believer in "nose to charging handle". Some are. Some are wrong. O0
It helps to ensure consistent sight picture.
To my mind, your midsection is a bit high off the ground; getting your support hand out further should help with that.
BUT, for the most part, looking fantastic.
Have a good time when you go.