Hello All,
I have been to exactly one(1) AS 25m two day event. I made Rifleman with a lever action and a 4x32 scope without using a sling(232/250). I also made Distinguished Rifleman with a slightly modified 10/22 and a 3-9x40 using a web sling borrowing a lot from the 1907 pattern(244/250). I did use a shooting coat. I am not new to positional shooting and shot 3P rimfire in college for three years, but no longer practice regularly. I signed up for the event, the night before, threw a bunch of stuff together and did no prior preparation. I am happy to say that I learned a few things about this test while taking it several times and this is what I think. You are free to take it, leave it, or leave a comment.
The ideal set up is from the perspective of a Ruger 10/22 which is very clearly what the test of the Appleseed 25m event is geared toward although it can be successfully accomplished with whatever you the shooter are willing to work with save maybe a single shot rifle.
1. Optics
Select a good, quality optic for your rifle. You are going to be looking through it a lot and .22LR is cheap to shoot so spend some money here as you will be able to enjoy the optic. Also invest in a sun shade. If you are going to be firing all day there is a good chance that you will be shooting into the sun at some point and this will help to mitigate the affect on your optics. I would suggest a 4-12 or 16 as a maximum magnification for the scope. Four power is sufficient magnification for you to see where your bullets are impacting at 25m most of the time. The major thing to pay attention to with a variable power scope is the eye relief as you change powers. You could go to a 50mm objective but you do not need it and 40mm will allow for a lower scope mounting and a better cheek weld with conventional stocks. I did not like the clarity of either optic I used during the event.
Full Disclosure: When I got home I changed my scope to a 1" Nikon 6-18x40 with 1/8MOA target turrets and a sun shade. I have since changed again to a 30mm 4-16x50FFP with 1/4 MOA and target turrets and a zero stop. I realized that I missed having the 4x option on the rifle. I also use this rifle for hunting purposes which also had input into my optics decision.
1a. Iron sights
I did not use iron sights during my event, but have subsequently set up a rifle for Appleseed. I believe that I will use a click adjustable aperture rear with an adjustable iris and a blade front. I believe that this is the best practical set-up for the targets used. I was not impressed with the Tech sights and I did not observe any competent shooters using them so I cannot further comment. If I believed I could run my single shot fast enough, I would shoot Redfield Olympic sights chasing the 250 with irons.
2. Mounts and Rings
Select a good quality mount for your optic. I chose to step away from the factory claw mount base and move to a Warne maxima base so that I could use conventional scope rings and have more choice in mounting heights. One of the thing I learned was that the scope needs to be set much farther forward for prone shooting than I would likely set it up for offhand shooting on a regular hunting rifle. This played into my decision on my scope rings. I moved away from the Warne QD rings I normally use and went with Leupold PRW2 mediums in this case because I wanted the ability to move the scope forward in the rings without compromising the ability to remove the scope of need be. The turrets will block the QD levers on a Warne ring. Warne Permanently Attached PA rings do not have the ability to come on and off the rifle without loosening their hold on the scope tube and losing zero. As this scope is set up it has minimal clearance from the barrel and comes in at the magic 1.5" above bore.
3. Slings
Select a repeatable sling system for your rifle. I do not like the green web sling that the instructors were pushing during my course. I feel like it is neither expedient nor is it repeatable easily. I used the equivalent of the butler creek quick carry sling. I do not like it for its lack of repeatability, but it is quick to adjust and field expedient. If I were going to get serious about making a score I would select either a Turner Saddlery All Weather National Match or an ISSF sling from Freeland's.
4. Bipod
I believe that the rifle should be equipped with a bipod for resting on between stages. My preference would be with the legs extended but shortened to a point of being of no assistance in the prone position and for maximum stability on the deck. Perhaps this a nod to the days of my college shooting, but I do not like laying a scoped rifle over on its side if it has target turrets or a larger objective lens. I did not use one for shooting my stages nor did I have one mounted on the rifle, but I feel it would have been of some use to me. I use a Caldwell bipod normally. The 9-13" model is about what I am looking for to be used from a prone position when extended or a table.
***I also feel that it puts the rifle upright and encourages people to walk around the rifle instead of stepping over it. This happened during the event and I was vigorous in my explanation that this was unacceptable. It is never acceptable to step over a firearm as a course of habit. It is a direct statement of incompetence and a lack of consideration for others. Just don't do it.***
5. Magazines
I would not mind having six ten round magazines for this event and a seventh for emergencies, but at the bare minimum three ten round magazines should be the way to go. Always have one magazine loaded with 10 rounds for emergencies and have it someplace readily available but off by itself. You will load the eight round magazine first by accident eventually and once it has been ejected it is difficult to find again. You can train wreck the rapid fire stages easily without an emergency magazine. Consider getting one of the clear 10 round magazines as your emergency as it is clearly distinguished and can be easily observed as full. I did not like the BX-25 magazines for the rapid fire stages. I found them unwieldy and difficult to seat fully when slung up tightly. They are a poor choice for an emergency magazine for this reason.
PSA #1:You would be well served to take a moment to round over the sharp edges on the magazine bases with a file or a pocket knife. You will be moving quickly and the sharp edges can cut you during a magazine change or malfunction clearing. I did not round any edges of the magazines for easier insertion.
PSA #2: You should disassemble and clean your magazines regularly. If you do not, as I did not, you will find out how good your magazine changing skills are. Tandemkross makes a tool for reassembling the magazines. It was a good piece of advice from one of the instructors to get this device.
6. Trigger Group
I had previously invested in some Volquartsen parts and springs for my trigger group. I have kept the stock magazine release for now. I can see how the extended release may shave some time on the reload for those who are struggling, but I feel like this is not really a significant issue for me and not something that I will be spending money on anytime soon. Focus on ensuring a clean trigger break that positively resets and does not disturb the sights. You can spend as much as you like here, but I just went with trigger, sear, hammer and springs. Whatever you choose to do make sure you check the function of the rifle with live ammo after the modification.
7. Bolt
My bolt is stock and I do believe that I have room for improvement. I am considering changing out the firing pin and the extractor as I sometimes get stovepipes and light strikes with certain ammunition.
8. Ammunition
I have read a lot of online harrumph about this ammunition or that. For the 25m event, if it shoots reliably in the rifle it will work just fine. In fact, I value reliability over all else at such short distance. I define reliable ammunition as firing each time the trigger is pulled and having the same sound and recoil impulse each time. I cannot exclude the fact that if the chosen ammunition isn't uniformly charged and ignited then we cannot expect accuracy. Eley or Lapua or any other target ammunition for this short of a distance with such generous V-rings is a waste. Bring the bulk ammo that runs in your rifle and not the expensive stuff that shoots far better than you can hold.
9. Barrels
I saw a lot of different configurations being used during my event and a curious amount of take downs. The take down with a sling sounds like a recipe for large groups. The most accurate fire was coming from bull barrels, but I believe that spoke more about the dedication of the user to his or her platform than the necessity. I believe the pencil barrel is of sufficient mechanical accuracy to achieve a perfect score at 25m. It may or may not experience some heating issues in an original stock setup that could cause a shift in POI, but a free floated barrel should do just fine. My rifle has a Butler Creek plain old black bull barrel that is no longer available. This came as a set with a barrel, stock and a magazine years ago. I have not seen any reason to change this barrel, but have seen mixed reviews of it on the interwebs. I believe the user can spend as much or as little here as their heart desires on a barrel. Instead of looks and hype, I would urge you to pay attention to the way the rifle feels in the different positions. The extra stability gained in weight is good for prone and rapid fire, but comes at a cost in standing. Perhaps a fluted bull barrel is the way to go here with the trade-off in weight still lending a steady aim to the shooter in the standing stage where a high score is definitely possible.
10. Stocks
I used whatever stock came with the Butler Creek kit years ago. I have modified it a bit. I free floated it by wrapping a socket in sandpaper and running it up and down the barrel channel. I also cut away some of the stock for better ventilation and cooling. Number 9 lead shot was added to the void under the recoil pad increasing the weight significantly and shifting the center of gravity to the pistol grip. I find this steadies the rifle tremendously for firing offhand and also for firing off a bipod. I had not done much sitting and prone sling shooting prior to the Appleseed. The wooden stock that the gun came with would be very challenging to shoot well with in my opinion. The steel butt plate has no traction in the shoulder pocket and will be liable to move during firing or manipulation of the rifle. I am also not a fan of the dimensions of the stock and find them sluggish and cumbersome with no positive checkering for maintaining a good firing grip. If a shooter had a factory stock 10/22 with the smooth stock and steel butt plate, I would recommend upgrading to a target stock that can accommodate a bull barrel in case they choose to do so later. I prefer checkering or positive grip texture and for the positional shooting in Appleseed. If I were really chasing scores, I would find something that had adjustment for LOP and cheek weld with a rail for a hand stop underneath the forend. Bell and Carlson's Odyssey or a Stocky's Supermatch polymer stock come to mind as what I would be looking for. I would avoid "bag rider" designs like the Hogue overmolded thumb hole stock which are designed to sit in shooting bags on a bench.
11. Shooting Mat
I used some sort of fold up blanket that zipped into a pouch. The zipper was located at a spot where I felt it a lot. I will buy a padded American made shooting mat at some point after a bit more research. I'm going to take my time here because the shooting mat is a place where I spend a lot of my time. I am torn between the
12. Shooting Jacket
I wore an old 10x design that I had laying around from my college days. I do not own an NRA style ratchet strap jacket. If I were looking for a jacket I would go with the One Star USMC style and talk the wife into sewing on some rubber patches in a few places or go with a Champion's Choice basic cordura NRA coat. It sure helps the elbows and gives a bit of support to the torso having a coat.
13. Shooting Sequence Card
I cannot deny this sounds ridiculous, but I managed to scramble everything up more than once on the second day. I will always confirm out loud as I prepare what the position is for the stage and the shot sequence for the rifle I am shooting. This piece of equipment is of the utmost importance as it saves points being wasted by mental errors. I met a very squared away and experienced shooter that shared with me that he wrote the sequence on his shooting mat. If I only fired one rifle configuration, I would likely do the same.
These are things that I think might make for the ideal experience, but are in many cases more than the bare minimum. It is my hope that someone might read this and find inspiration to better enjoy their shooting experience or better still find something that I may have failed to mention and contribute to the furthering of this discussion. I look forward the next event I can attend and achieving the 250 score with both irons and optics.
Best Regards,
J2BD
Hey J2BD, that looks like some great advice. Generally, the goal is just to get people out shooting and learning whatever gear they have, but I tend to be someone who likes to "leave nothing on the table" and get the best score possible. And I enjoy the gamesmanship and competing against myself quite a bit.
One question I had was concerning the "never step over a firearm". Where does this come from? I'm active in Appleseed but still new to many disciplines of shooting and I've never heard that before (and if it's bad, I am certainly a guilty party :) ). Is that a firearm general rule, some range etiquette I haven't heard or a common practice from small bore? Just trying to increase my knowledge.
Thanks for the details in your post. I'm sure many of us will find them useful.
P.S. I hope you'll give some thought to volunteering and passing on some of your knowledge and shooting experience to other! ;)
Captain,
Thank you for your inquiry. I have always been taught and passed this on to shooters in have taught as a part of respecting the equipment and their fellow competitors. In small bore when you are shooting a rifle that is worth thousands of dollars it makes absolute sense. I don't want dirt from the boots to get into the action or the sights which alone can be worth over $600, and not stepping over prevents stepping on, knocking or tripping over the rifle. Aside from that, the shooting mat of another shooter is a no go zone as a fellow competitor. I would never step on to another competitor's shooting mat out of respect and to avoid the appearance of impropriety. I look at even the most simple of rifles with a manner of reverence as its current state represents an untold story of time and money and means something to that person. If the action is open, a chamber flag is inserted and visible, no ammunition is present, and no one is touching the rifle there is neither need to step over the rifle nor set foot on the shooting mat. Doing so doesn't build rapport, but rather an adversarial relationship that now has to be overcome to pass on knowledge.
I'm definitely interested in continuing to teach others how to shoot better. It's a lot of fun and very rewarding. I just have to attend the magical second event to unlock said possibility. Something to consider for sure.
Best Regards,
J2BD
Agree on the etiquette. Nobody needs to step over rifles or any part of the students' mats. You can check the rifles from 2' behind the mats just as easily. I do ask students to set up with enough space in between that instructors can get next to them for coaching.
The ideal setup presented is a bit overkill for Appleseed. Even Rimfire Sporter limits scope magnification to 6x. If iron sights are good enough for the Olympics, they are good enough for Appleseed.
If you're shooting .22LR, almost any ring will do. I get Leupold Rifleman rings on Amazon for about $14. The challenge is mounting the scope far enough forward. I use EGW extended rails on my 10/22s and Ruger American Rimfire.
You do not need an aftermarket barrel to score a 250 at 25 meters. Ruger barrels are excellent quality and plenty accurate. So are Savage, Marlin, and Remington. CZs are world-class. If you plan to use your rifle for CMP Rimfire Sporter as well as Appleseed, your barrel must conform to CMP rules. Most bull barrels will make the rifle exceed the maximum weight for CMP-RS.
If your rifle came originally with iron sights mounted on the barrel, the comb of the stock is too low for a good cheek weld with receiver sights (Tech-Sights or Williams) or a scope. The OEM sights are really low, and the stock is made for them. That's why we keep materials to make cheek risers. Or you can replace the stock; that's expensive but it's a one-time investment for the life of the rifle. My Nikon ProStaff Rimfire scopes have rear bells that are narrow enough to fit above the rail using low rings - just barely. I can just slide a piece of paper between the scope and the rail.
Repeatability with a web sling is easy. Once you know the optimal length, draw a line across the sling with a Sharpie, right next to the keeper. If you use different lengths for prone and sitting, make two lines and label each one.
Shooting mats are good but they are not all equal. Shooting coats are a luxury and are not allowed in CMP-RS.
When I look at an ideal setup, I want to be comfortable with all that is there. It is my ideal and not necessarily the most expensive way to go nor is it the bare minimum required. I have no desire to explore the bare minimums again. It's a lot of work to shoot a decent score this way. If I were competing in another match, I would set the rifle up for that match.
I find it interesting that you went to EGW for an extended mount ($40) and then skimped on rings($14). Did you select anything that would give you an advantage in long range shooting such as a 10 or 20 MOA base? Clearly there are many routes you can go with this. For many years I ran my 10/22 in stock configuration with the factory aluminum base and a daisy 3-7 airgun scope and it worked well as long you understood its limits which were a shifting zero during power adjustment and poor light transfer. I think there is no need to steer someone away from a quality set of rings and a good mount.
If you don't want to use a luxury shooting jacket, a Carhartt jacket of canvas duck works almost as well and maybe doesn't infringe upon the rules of other contests.
I'd like to know anyone who ever shot exceedingly well with those marble arms flip up sights. That would be a hand worth shaking. That's a lot of patience and work.
When I think of world class, I thinking Feinwerkbau and Anschütz. CZ does not come into the equation for me at that level. Yes they have some very nice products for the money, but the craftsmanship is not on the same level as an Anschütz 54 action.
The green strap; I'm glad to know how to use it and fervently pray I never have to. If I'm going to go through the effort to use a sling for augmentation of accuracy I prefer a 1907 style setup and feel it does more for the shooter beyond the .22LR. Yes you can mark it up for the different positions, but it is the Daisy air rifle scope of slings.
It's a rimfire, for Pete's sake. Doesn't need fancy tacticool rings.
The marksmanship standard for the Project Appleseed rifle course of fire is to consistently shoot 4MOA groups at ranges out to 500 yards with a rack grade rifle and surplus ammo (we only test to 400 yards). 25m events were developed to accommodate ranges that did not have 400 yard capability, and to save a lot of walking.
So, the ideal setup for a 25m event is a rack grade M1 Garand (or M1A, or FAL, or M16, etc., etc.) with iron sights, surplus ammo, and a web sling (or an M1907, if you insist). A USMC-style shooting jacket has always worked fine for me.
If circumstances dictate that you run a .22 rather than a center fire rifle there's no need to get any fancier than that.
The ideal setup for any Appleseed (in my opinion) doesn't even involve firearms at all. As much as I love to shoot, the ideal Appleseed is a room full of people eager to hear about the history of April 19, 1775. If awakening the sleeping Americans amongst us is not part of the curriculum it isn't an Appleseed at all. There are plenty of other shooting organizations who dwell on the perfect gear and setup. Like EZ3 said, we are a 4MOA organization, but we do excel well beyond that standard; especially when it comes to telling the history of our Founders.
Don't get me wrong. Gear can definitely make a difference. But as Appleseeders, our focus goes well beyond that.
Welcome J2BD!
As you stated these are your opinion for an "ideal" set up and are sound for you and decent advice over all.
Why a $40 mount and cheap rings? To get the scope where it needs to be and keep it there. It is 22 LR in a 4 MOA program.
A few of our slogans:
Simplicity and precision in all things.
Never let perfect get in the way of good enough.
I hope you follow through on your intent to join the volunteer ranks of AS. We need the help.
AS is not a gear race. As someone that travels with 4+ loaners, all of which are capable of shooting score, ideal is out of the budget.
TechSights are the best option at that price point and a LOT of Rifleman scores have been shot with them.
Put the course of fire on a piece of duct tape on your mat in a triangle like it is on the target: 5,5. 3,3,4. 2,2,3,3.
Your single shot is possible as a former instructor has shot score with a Cricket, not only loading single shot but cocking for each one.
I haven't worn a shooting jacket since a loaner for my second AS. They do help though.
Shooting mats I like best at the under equipment mats for exercise equipment.
There is a thread of a man that insisted on shooting score with his 10/22 as he bought it and shot score with those "wonderful" flip up sights. A Rifleman persists. (Another one of our sayings.)
I look forward to following your journey on the Appleseed trail.
In Liberty
Chuck
Hello Charles,
Thank you so much! I appreciate your reply.
I agree that having a loaner fleet is quite prohibitive to maintain at an ideal level. I was captain of a rifle team for three years and it was nerve wracking to see some of the people learning marksmanship with such high end equipment. I had the benefit of being able to vet the students a bit more though.
The question about the mount and rings was an illumination of what I felt was a missed opportunity. I really feel like good glass deserves good rings and bases. That's a personal choice coming after years of minimum and okay equipment on that rifle. It's my go to/do all .22 and I am continuing my enjoyment of it.
The question on the single shot was more of reliable ejection than whether or not it could be manipulated fast enough. We used to shoot ten shots in thirty seconds or less as a breakdown drill for if something went wrong with your rifle during a match. Apparently I just needed to clean the chamber better. Bore snakes don't accomplish everything. I am grateful for the renewed spark of relearning my .22 skills.
I have definitely persevered. I had dirty magazines and bloody knuckles from rapid clearing of malfunctions on one dumpster fire of a stage.
I understand the strategy of the test and I am fortunate to be able to save a weak middle with the ends and still "shoot score." I recognize that a lot of people struggle with the Rifleman patch and it is not in any way easy.
My next event will consist of going for 250 with optics and irons. Beyond that it is just having fun helping others to excel and improve.
I feel like the jacket is as important if not more important than the mat. The jacket helps the elbows in prone and offers some benefit in all other positions (100% of the points). The mat is a tool that doesn't move with the shooter and is useful in one position, but it is worth 60% of points. The jacket is of overall benefit where as the mat has limited benefit.
I should like to read this man's story of the stock iron sight journey.
My journey may well be an interesting one.
Best,
J2BD
J2BD I'm extremely allergic to grass. The mat it way more important to me. ;)
Quote from: Charles McKinley on October 29, 2020, 11:15:57 PM
J2BD I'm extremely allergic to grass. The mat it way more important to me. ;)
:snipersmi :wb: :F =Riflemen Persist!