Hi all,
Can I use a boresnake to clean my 10/22 barrel during prep time at an Appleseed event?
I have a new Ruger 10/22 that I used at the last Appleseed I was at. It shot tight groups during the morning but come afternoon my shot placement seemed to open up A LOT. At first I thought it was me, but then got to thinking it might be the dirty barrel (especially the tight tolerances of a new barrel when dirty). I didn't bring a boresnake last time but I want to for the next Appleseed event in 2 weeks.
My question is are we allowed to run a boresnake through our rifles at an Appleseed event? If so when? During prep time?
I believe I would have to keep the barrel in front of the shooting line while angling barrel down so gravity can make the boresnake weight slip through the barrel then pull snake through barrel all while keeping barrel in font of shooting line. Not too difficult but just wanted to know if this was OK.
If not is their any other kind of barrel cleaning methods allowed on the line that are recommended by anyone?
I believe if I can keep a clean barrel my shooting scores may stay decent.
Thanks in advance,
Hangfire Ten
I have boresnaked loaners and student rifles on the line as well as my own when I was a shooter. Should be done during prep or another time when the Shoot Boss has authorized safe handling of rifles. I would also flag an instructor, let them know what you want to do and have them observe if it makes them more comfortable. I find boresnakes easier to use on the line than any other method since rods might require disassembly of the rifle to a more significant degree to go chamber to muzzle as recommended.
The safety rules are strict but there are exceptions for instructors if there are safety or function issues - we sweep barrels with a rod from the barrel end if we think there may be a squib or a stuck case in the chamber, for instance.
All that said...
I am sure other instructors/shooters will chime in, but typically barrel fouling will not cause that kind of dispersion during an event. In fact, some rimfire shooters swear dispersion decreases as you foul an originally clean barrel.
Normally it is a problem with the sighting system (mount or rings or sight is loose), or maybe a sling mount/keeper, or just the shooter (sorry, we have all been there as we get tired/sore or lose concentration toward the end of a day). Blue Locktite, propper torque on screws, etc. are critical preparation before a shoot.
Chamber/bolt/bolt face/extractor/ejector/firing pin/magazine/feed lip/ramp fouling can cause issues (failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to fire/light strikes, etc.). The times I have used a boresnake, a toothbrush, and lube during an event are when we are getting cases stuck in the chamber or the feed ramp is a mess.
If you have major issues with copper or lead fouling in your barrel, that is better dealt with using a proper solvent between events.
There is no way a Ruger factory barrel will foul enough to make the rifle shoot outside Appleseed standards during a shoot. Also, it takes thousands of rounds, typically in rapid fire with significant barrel heating, for lead fouling to be meaningful. All .22LR ammo has a wax or grease lube on the bullet, so lead really isn't deposited much. The initial fouling effect of the lube is to seal the pores of the bore and lubricate it so that velocity (hence accuracy) will be more consistent.
How much dispersion are you getting late in the day compared to the morning?
Quote from: FiremanBob on August 05, 2020, 06:42:49 PM
There is no way a Ruger factory barrel will foul enough to make the rifle shoot outside Appleseed standards during a shoot. Also, it takes thousands of rounds, typically in rapid fire with significant barrel heating, for lead fouling to be meaningful. All .22LR ammo has a wax or grease lube on the bullet, so lead really isn't deposited much. The initial fouling effect of the lube is to seal the pores of the bore and lubricate it so that velocity (hence accuracy) will be more consistent.
How much dispersion are you getting late in the day compared to the morning?
Learn something new every day - I didn't know that.
Hangfire Ten - Did you change type of ammo? Some ammo is pretty crappy. I've seen targets using Remington 'Golden Bullet' that looked like a shotgun. And that was with me and another instructor to verify. I'm talking a 12 MOA group. And I can consistently shoot 2 MOA with good ammo. And lol - there's what we here in Texas call the 3 O' Clock Syndrome. People start getting tired and the targets show it.
Quote from: scuzzy on August 05, 2020, 07:06:53 PM
Quote from: FiremanBob on August 05, 2020, 06:42:49 PM
There is no way a Ruger factory barrel will foul enough to make the rifle shoot outside Appleseed standards during a shoot. Also, it takes thousands of rounds, typically in rapid fire with significant barrel heating, for lead fouling to be meaningful. All .22LR ammo has a wax or grease lube on the bullet, so lead really isn't deposited much. The initial fouling effect of the lube is to seal the pores of the bore and lubricate it so that velocity (hence accuracy) will be more consistent.
How much dispersion are you getting late in the day compared to the morning?
Learn something new every day - I didn't know that.
Hangfire Ten - Did you change type of ammo? Some ammo is pretty crappy. I've seen targets using Remington 'Golden Bullet' that looked like a shotgun. And that was with me and another instructor to verify. I'm talking a 12 MOA group. And I can consistently shoot 2 MOA with good ammo. And lol - there's what we here in Texas call the 3 O' Clock Syndrome. People start getting tired and the targets show it.
There were reports during the last ammo drought of 22 ammo (from a certain company starting with R) that had bullets so soft they would lead the barrel in a hundred rounds or so and that will definitely mess you up.
But that's a rare thing. My experience is it may take 5 to 10 rounds for a cleaned or brand new barrel to stabilize, particularly if you are shooting a lubed round. (I shoot Wolf MT, a lubed round, and I will burn 10 rounds in my 10/22T after I have cleaned the barrel to make sure it's stable.) But once that's done, it takes a long time - barring the above - for the barrel to foul enough to make a difference. I'd look more to chamber or action fouling:
If it was a brand new rifle, how much lube was in the action to start? Was it enough to still be effective after absorbing the gunk from several hundred rounds of rimfire? How tight is the chamber? Could you be getting slightly different headspacing after several hundred rounds worth of gunk? 10/22s will put up with some amount of slop in bolt vs. chamber face alignment and still fire, but it can affect the results.
I'd check your sighting system, or the receiver screw first. My guess is one or the other loosened up on you.
Thanks for all the responses.
I was using CCI standard velocity with Tech Sights. I was shooting nice tight groups in the morning at 25m and in the afternoon some appeared to be 2 inch or more if my memory serves me correctly. May have been fatigue that opened up the groups, but I will do as stated above and ask the shoot boss at the event if I can boresnake out the barrel during prep about half way through the day or something just for my peace of mind and see if that makes a difference or not.
Thank again
Hangfire Ten
Could also be dehydration or tired eyes using irons like Tech Sights. Or not focusing on the front site as crisply. All of those could cause groups to open up like that. CCI SV is usually pretty darn good.
Quote from: cwcdl79 on August 05, 2020, 08:43:40 PM
I'd check your sighting system, or the receiver screw first. My guess is one or the other loosened up on you.
Good point. I will have to check the receiver screw torque.
Thanks
Hangfire Ten
Check the following:
1. Action screw
2. Sight screws (base of your front sight and the 2 screws holding the rear sight to the receiver), be careful with the 2 screws that go into the receiver, don't strip that hole out.
3. Lastly, check the barrel V block (take it out of the stock and you'll see the V block holding the barrel against the receiver), this is probably the least likely but you never know.
You'll most likely find the cause in 1 or 2. I would also put a light dab of blue loctite on the sight screws so they don't back out on you and you can still remove the screw via hand tools later if you need.
Boresnakes are fine, as others said, check with the line boss and he will tell you when that is ok. Most likely at the end of a string of fire where everyone on the line has completed their string of fire and have backed off the line.
Quote from: Hangfire Ten on August 05, 2020, 10:37:16 PM
Quote from: cwcdl79 on August 05, 2020, 08:43:40 PM
I'd check your sighting system, or the receiver screw first. My guess is one or the other loosened up on you.
Good point. I will have to check the receiver screw torque.
Thanks
Hangfire Ten
Quote from: Hangfire Ten on August 05, 2020, 09:28:32 PM
Thanks for all the responses.
I was using CCI standard velocity with Tech Sights. I was shooting nice tight groups in the morning at 25m and in the afternoon some appeared to be 2 inch or more if my memory serves me correctly. May have been fatigue that opened up the groups, but I will do as stated above and ask the shoot boss at the event if I can boresnake out the barrel during prep about half way through the day or something just for my peace of mind and see if that makes a difference or not.
Thank again
Hangfire Ten
I have had similar issues with changing POI. I traced the problem to what I believe to be build up of residue in the leade (that area where the groves come to the chamber). Buildup in the leade is especially problematic for autoloading rifles like the 10/22. As you fire the rifle, the barrel heats up and the leade and may change the point of impact by the way the bullet is affected as it leaves the chamber. I have seen POI changes occur during the rapid fire stages. Autoloading rifles have a tendency to build up in the 6:00 o'clock section of the leade. Cleaning: One technique is to plug the muzzle (I like to use an ear plug), place the muzzle in a pan or coffee can, fill the bore with Kroil and let it sit for a day or two. Take a 22 nylon brush or worn brass brush and bend it 90 degrees to act as a chamber brush. Brush the chamber well with JB Bore Cleaner, then simply use a patch to clean the rest of the barrel. Re-zero with about 20 + rounds to restore the barrel. Bring that little 22 bore brush to Appleseed and give the chamber a dry brush and then maybe follow with a cotton swab to keep the leade clean after a Course of Fire. Watch this video https://youtu.be/CWDwN50VsaI - Bill Calfree's book on the Art of Rimfire Accuracy has a good discussion on this topic.
Just my opinion, I think there is a machining problem with the barrel, in particular the leade, as mentioned above. When using a cleaning rod from the muzzle, you may find a ring of lead coming out. Maybe way wrong here, but something else to check out.
I generally only clean the chamber with a bronze brush, and hardly ever the entire barrel. That Ruger 10/22 will out shoot most anything.
Quote from: Hangfire Ten on August 05, 2020, 09:28:32 PM
Thanks for all the responses.
I was using CCI standard velocity with Tech Sights. I was shooting nice tight groups in the morning at 25m and in the afternoon some appeared to be 2 inch or more if my memory serves me correctly. May have been fatigue that opened up the groups, but I will do as stated above and ask the shoot boss at the event if I can boresnake out the barrel during prep about half way through the day or something just for my peace of mind and see if that makes a difference or not.
Thank again
Hangfire Ten
There is also a possibility of an interaction with no-line progressive lenses over the course of the day, Especially if using a scope without a parallax adjustment. Would the shooter be using no-line progressive lenses, has moderate or worse astigmatism, and is using a non-AO scope? Groups in the morning of 1.5-2.0 MOA often become as large as 5 MOA by mid-afternoon, if these conditions exist. It's not fixable by stressing placement of the eye in the center of the scope ocular. The eyes tire over the course of the day, resulting in the needed prescription shifting up or down across the progressive lenses, forcing a change in cheek weld by the shooter simply in order to see the scope crosshairs clearly. When coupled with a non-AO scope, the error goes up to about 4-5 MOA. Then, the next morning, the same sight adjustments that originally produced 1.5-2.0 MOA groups will return. And, groups get good again.
If this is the case, the easy fix is simply going to an AO scope, where you set the distance to 25 meters. This reduces the shift in POI back down below 1.5 MOA due to the shift in the sweet spot needed to see the crosshairs clearly.
Using an AO scope is not cheating for bad cheek weld when used to overcome no-line progressive lenses in one's eyeglasses prescription. It's a form of Adaptive Appleseed.
This has been discussed at length on the forum in the past, under parallax.
Hangfire Ten,
As others have said , especially using CCI, a dirty chamber is probably not your problem. There is a simple tool that is handy to have on hand, just in case, though.
Gunsmither Tools makes a Brush n' Mop tool for cleaning the 22LR chambers. My loaner rifles have a Bentz chamber which is somewhat tighter than original
Rugers. If someone uses Thunderbolt ammo, for example, the chamber can get dirty enuff to cause problems. Run this brush in the chamber a few times and then clean up with the mop end and all is well. Of course I'll give them better ammo to prevent further situations.
https://gunsmithertools.com/shop/ols/products/xn-brush-n-mop-chamber-tool-gl1p
I like that tool!
I use a bent nylon brush and a q-tip with CLP at the Range. Back home I'll clean the chamber with BJ Bore cleaner and pull a patch through with an Otis small-bore rifle cable
Quote from: Paladin223 on November 27, 2020, 10:33:40 PM
Hangfire Ten,
As others have said , especially using CCI, a dirty chamber is probably not your problem. There is a simple tool that is handy to have on hand, just in case, though.
Gunsmither Tools makes a Brush n' Mop tool for cleaning the 22LR chambers. My loaner rifles have a Bentz chamber which is somewhat tighter than original
Rugers. If someone uses Thunderbolt ammo, for example, the chamber can get dirty enuff to cause problems. Run this brush in the chamber a few times and then clean up with the mop end and all is well. Of course I'll give them better ammo to prevent further situations.