Have you been there on the line, say in "Standing" (or any other position), and heard yourself/say to yourself mentally
"It's good enough, I can make it work"
Or something similar?
How did that work out?
LOL
It NEVER works out.
But, for some reason we allow that to happen over and over again.
Refer to my post on mental management, cause that addresses this as well.
The exact moment you find yourself saying "That looks good enough", it is the first and only clue for you to "start your shot process over", start it over from step 1 of firing the shot.
You will see an increase in scores.
Marksmanship is all about discipline, and after mastering the fundamentals, that is really all that is left. The self discipline to take that rifle out of the shoulder and start the process over.
For me, the times I have taken it down and started over I may shoot a 9 or an 8, sometimes a 10. But an 8, is WAY better than a 5 or a miss, isn't it?
On my thread/post on mental management/what we think/tell ourselves is so important:
Start saying to yourself (on the 25M Aqt for example) "Nothing less than a 5 is acceptable". Train your mind to accept nothing less than your best hold.
When establishing NPA (see thread on Prep Time), what do you consider an acceptable NPA on the 25M AQT 4th row? Centered? Is that acceptable?
How about revising that to be in the V ring?
Take that a step further....
How about
"In the direct center of the V in the V ring"
Direct center of the V in the V ring sounds a lot better than "Centered" doesn't it?
It works, if you do it.
yes and no.
I like to see itty bitty goups , but a 5 is a 5 is a 5 for the purpose of Appleseed.
on the line this weekend I heard a lot of , "Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough" , "don't fuss the shot " from our SB.
it is good advise as we are teaching field expedient shooting a fast hit is better than a slow more perfect hit.
am I going to work on distinguished as I get time, you bet , might someday I make a 250 maybe.
but the goal is to make them riflemen behind a rifle and a rifleman with all 4 boxes so that we never come down to the final box if we can help it.
Quote from: TrapperPete on September 24, 2019, 03:53:52 PM
yes and no.
on the line this weekend I heard a lot of , "Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough" ,
Bingo. The marksmanship Appleseed teaches isn't about perfect 250s. It's about turning regular Americans into Riflemen. 4MOA is good enough to do that. Obviously I'm not opposed to constant self improvement and discipline, but the idea that "perfection" (whatever that means) is the goal is off mission in my book.
There is practical application in not letting perfect become the enemy of good enough, that's during rapid fire.
The only thing 4 MOA on the 25M AQT is the bottom row/slow prone targets. Every other target is much larger than 4 MOA.
The point is, aim small miss small stuff.
If "good enough" is one's personal goal (it is not mine, nor some others I know), that's OK as well.
I am speaking about the standing position primarily here, a very difficult one to master, especially without a sling.
At some point, rack grade 4 MOA is no longer enticing. 4 MOA is really 80% in high power rifle, Marksman score, definitely not good enough "for me".
It can also be applied to anything, public speaking, history telling? Is it "good enough"?
Point is, settle for nothing less than perfection, maybe that gets you 2 MOA, but it's a lot better than 4.
R/
Chris
Quote from: peterlandsiedel on September 24, 2019, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: TrapperPete on September 24, 2019, 03:53:52 PM
yes and no.
on the line this weekend I heard a lot of , "Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough" ,
Bingo. The marksmanship Appleseed teaches isn't about perfect 250s. It's about turning regular Americans into Riflemen. 4MOA is good enough to do that. Obviously I'm not opposed to constant self improvement and discipline, but the idea that "perfection" (whatever that means) is the goal is off mission in my book.
To truly improve a score, some "fussing" of the shot is needed.
Especially in slow fire.
Rapid fire as well, there is plenty of time to setup a perfect shot, my advice.... don't settle for less.
Quote from: ChrisAt some point, rack grade 4 MOA is no longer enticing. 4 MOA is really 80% in high power rifle, Marksman score, definitely not good enough "for me".
Some thoughts, as I wait for my grandboss to tell me that the great-grandboss has no "helmet fire" taskers:
- 4 MOA is absolutely good enough for what we do on the line. A large majority of first time AS students don't shoot to that standard, as can been seen by the Day 1 AM Red Coats we all see. With good instruction and student engagement, the students have the tools to get to the 4 MOA standard. Side note: I've gone a few rounds with Chris re: whether or not we teach a 4 MOA standard, and I don't intend to reopen that can of worms here.
- If you shoot enough AQTs, one could get bored if the shooter isn't challenged or otherwise engaged in an entertaining way. Truth be told, I've watched this happen with fellow unnamed instructors. Even lobster tastes like soap if you eat it often enough. One way to break through the boredom barrier is to push yourself to 250. Another way, after achieving 250, is to do it consistently. And then, move to all-V's.
- I don't necessarily see Chris's post as an attack on the marksmanship portion of our mission. I would bin it under, "Advanced Shooting Techniques and Theory You Could Apply to Appleseed." We teach a certain way at AS, and it makes the average American better behind their rifle - no doubt about it. If we can learn something from other disciplines/organizations, that makes students better shooters, then it's worth consideration, as long as it doesn't impede the overall mission.
I would compare the OP to the concept of Rifleman's Dance - we don't teach it right away, but rather later, when the student has a path to executing the fundamentals well.
My $0.01, with AD/Retired military discount applied.
Good stuff Monkey!
I'm not degrading the Marksmanship instruction that AS teaches, just offering some finer points that may compliment a reader's journey towards self improvement.
That's really what Marksmanship is, it is the art of self improvement, and includes body, mind and soul.
For those unaware, I qualified "Expert" in the Navy, and it took me 5 full weekend events to score my first Rifleman score. I persisted (LOL).
I'm only sharing my personal experiences thru trial and error, I tried a LOT of things that simply do not work. I have found that if one does what successful shooters are doing, chances are your Marksmanship skills will improve.
I stopped instructing Appleseed a few years ago, to pursue my goal of becoming Distinguished thru the CMP.
I found that as an instructor for Appleseed,I was not shooting much at all and my personal Marksmanship skills started to stagnate.
I've come a long way, and have a long way to go, this is my passion, fundamental Marksmanship, and I hope the journey never ends.
My posts are "take what you can get out of them, and leave the rest", in the hopes that someone gets something out of them.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Monkey on September 24, 2019, 07:54:43 PM
Quote from: ChrisAt some point, rack grade 4 MOA is no longer enticing. 4 MOA is really 80% in high power rifle, Marksman score, definitely not good enough "for me".
Some thoughts, as I wait for my grandboss to tell me that the great-grandboss has no "helmet fire" taskers:
- 4 MOA is absolutely good enough for what we do on the line. A large majority of first time AS students don't shoot to that standard, as can been seen by the Day 1 AM Red Coats we all see. With good instruction and student engagement, the students have the tools to get to the 4 MOA standard. Side note: I've gone a few rounds with Chris re: whether or not we teach a 4 MOA standard, and I don't intend to reopen that can of worms here.
- If you shoot enough AQTs, one could get bored if the shooter isn't challenged or otherwise engaged in an entertaining way. Truth be told, I've watched this happen with fellow unnamed instructors. Even lobster tastes like soap if you eat it often enough. One way to break through the boredom barrier is to push yourself to 250. Another way, after achieving 250, is to do it consistently. And then, move to all-V's.
- I don't necessarily see Chris's post as an attack on the marksmanship portion of our mission. I would bin it under, "Advanced Shooting Techniques and Theory You Could Apply to Appleseed." We teach a certain way at AS, and it makes the average American better behind their rifle - no doubt about it. If we can learn something from other disciplines/organizations, that makes students better shooters, then it's worth consideration, as long as it doesn't impede the overall mission.
I would compare the OP to the concept of Rifleman's Dance - we don't teach it right away, but rather later, when the student has a path to executing the fundamentals well.
My $0.01, with AD/Retired military discount applied.
Personally, I love the idea of "perfect being the enemy of the good enough". But I see the idea a little differently. I don't think the idea is to settle for "good enough". The idea (IMHO) is to not let "perfection" keep us from achieving at least "good enough".
An example might be deciding not to attend an Appleseed until you have the perfect gear, and therefore you never attend. In this case, the "perfect" was definitely the enemy of the "good enough".
Or maybe the IIT who doesn't want to present a strike until it is the be most motivational, inspirational, "perfect" strike possible. And therefore, she never presents her strike. Once you feel your Second Strike is "good enough", you step up and try it. And then, you continually strive to improve it . . . to make it perfect. I have a feeling the instructor who's goal is just "good enough" won't ever be as good as they could be.
The same goes for shooting; first get 'em all on paper, then go for 210, then you work for distinguished, and after distinguished a perfect 250. Achieving 80% with a rack grade rifle and surplus ammo is a laudable goal, but I would hope a shooter's journey doesn't end after scoring 210. This "pursuit" of perfection certainly doesn't seem contrary to the Appleseed mission. In fact, you could make the argument that "perfect" is an essential part of the mission. We want every sleeping American wake up and embrace their heritage and liberty. In that regard, we desire perfection. However, it doesn't stop us from making a valiant effort for the 15 (or 3) who showed up this weekend. For this weekend, that will be "good enough". :)
Captain
Quote from: USNAVYCHIEF(Ret) on September 24, 2019, 07:11:24 PM
4 MOA is really 80% in high power rifle, Marksman score, definitely not good enough "for me".
It can also be applied to anything, public speaking, history telling? Is it "good enough"?
Quote from: peterlandsiedel on September 24, 2019, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: TrapperPete on September 24, 2019, 03:53:52 PM
yes and no.
on the line this weekend I heard a lot of , "Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough" ,
Bingo. The marksmanship Appleseed teaches isn't about perfect 250s. It's about turning regular Americans into Riflemen. 4MOA is good enough to do that. Obviously I'm not opposed to constant self improvement and discipline, but the idea that "perfection" (whatever that means) is the goal is off mission in my book.
If a telling of the strikes has a few errors, but gets through to a shooter and our mission "clicks" for him/her, then yeah, it's "good enough."
Marksmanship is an attractive discipline to me precisely because there is no set, final "perfection." Groups can always be smaller, targets can always be further, weather can always be more adverse. However, I think telling shooters that they should settle for nothing less than "perfect" is counterproductive. I can't tell you how many students I see beating themselves up on the line because they didn't shoot well enough. Telling them that anything less than "perfect" is not going to raise their scores or shrink their groups.
I agree with your "aim small miss small" assessment. Introducing "perfection" as a necessary goal in our program is not desirable.
I like pushing it further and people of a competitive nature should take it where ever they want to be.
I agree shooting consistently sub 210 then breaking above on your good day also isn't the end goal.
a realistic Appleseed goal is to shoot even on your bad day shoot 210.
when your glasses are fogging up , your in the rain , it's been 6 months since you shot an AQT, and your rifle zero is off 2 moa and you shoot a 209 it isn't so bad. but it isn't good.
to be able to shoot it Irons or scope on a 25meter AQT
challenge yourself shoot it with a bolt action rifle. maybe even a lever
center-fire.
finish with time to spare especially on stage 2 & 3 but still with a rifleman score.
it comes down to a philosophy of your training are you training for perfection on paper or something that might one day be shooting back.
neither are wrong.
Chris's first post referenced a "5".
On the AQT that's as high as a score can be.
But he was talking about a target with a "10" in the center.
His 5 was a poor 3 or worse, not good enough for me.
Thanks Chris, good post.
In my original post on this, I mentioned the establishment of NPA.
Is that ever good enough?
A few responses above on score stuff, but as I mentioned, this really is applicable to many of the fundamental steps.
Why do we do the "Card the sights" drill?
I used to preface the "card the sights" drill, with "I'm going to teach you all that you are all liars"! LOL...in a jokingly way.
The reason I said that, was that was exactly what I was doing, I was lying to myself...and was VERY LAZY by not closing my eyes, relaxing into the position, and then opening them back up to check my natural point of aim.
I did not trust nor see the value in the process of closing my eyes, breathing, relaxing and opening them up. I did not believe it truly worked.
What typically happens when we do a "Card the sights" drill? For some, it is truly an "Ah Hah" moment.
What about a blind fire drill? Ever do that? Where you have a shooter take 5 or so shots at a target with the sights covered??
That is another way to reinforce that NPA is extremely important.
So, regardless of the thoughts on score, and letting perfect get in the way of good enough....., consider the second half of the original post as well. Because, that is absolutely where it will NEVER be "good enough", and it should be as perfect as it can be.
In retrospect, I probably could have written the post a bit different, and not mentioned the score stuff at all. Because, if one begins to discipline themselves to take the rifle down when the sights are not in the area of their best hold (wobble area) and start the shot process over....then the better scores will follow as a result of that personal discipline.
The real point is, NEVER ACCEPT taking a shot that is "good enough", or in other words "outside your wobble area".
Appleseed is target shooting, that results in a score. It is not "battlefield" marksmanship. As someone above stated, hopefully we never ever have to revert to "battlefield" marksmanship.
R/
Chris
Quote from: ChrisThe reason I said that, was that was exactly what I was doing, I was lying to myself...and was VERY LAZY by not closing my eyes, relaxing into the position, and then opening them back up to check my natural point of aim.
I didn't really appreciate how much the brain uses vision as a feedback tool until I was in physical therapy last year for a blown calf. One exercise required balancing on one leg, eyes open, while hovering near a countertop, no hands - easy peasy. Next round was same drill with closed eyes. Taking the visual feedback out of the loop changed EVERYTHING, and I found myself falling over a lot. Once I figured out my natural balance position, that is, the engagement of muscle groups that kept me upright with my eyes closed, it became a lot easier.
Quote from: Also ChrisAppleseed is target shooting, that results in a score. It is not "battlefield" marksmanship. As someone above stated, hopefully we never ever have to revert to "battlefield" marksmanship.
Again, not touching that can of worms...lol...