In general, does the 10/22 need a trigger upgrade like the BX drop in trigger? Or does it make that big of a difference when compared to a stock trigger group? Just curious about this topic.
If you have mechanical capability and confidence in your skills in modifying parts, there are plenty of articles on Rimfire Central that can walk you through improvements.
Best bang for the buck, IMHO, is the BX trigger drop in. Use google fu to find a good price - I've gotten them as low as $55 shipped. Sites like gun.deals can help you here as well.
There are better triggers than the BX, to be sure, but the costs start to rise pretty significantly as you start looking at other popular options (e.g. Volquartsen, Timney, etc)
A nicer trigger might make the job easier, but it's not a requirement. Many Rifleman scores have been shot with stock 10/22 or milspec AR15 triggers.
Shooting a Rifleman score is NOT about equipment. It's about rock solid fundamentals!
Check this out...
(https://i.imgur.com/0nAvy7u.jpg)
This is 10 shots fired from a new, basic Ruger 10/22 at 25m. Cleaned, oiled, with Tech Sights and a sling. Fired in prone position, one shot per breath with nothing but a sling for support. Oh - the shooter was wearing a SUIT. #gentlemanrifleman
You don't need a tricked out rifle with expensive upgrades.
You don't need a scope.
You don't need fancy range clothes or boots.
You don't need a special shooting jacket.
You just need the desire to learn something new and improve yourself. Project Appleseed is the best self-improvement program around. ;)
v/r
MO
In theory, if your trigger control is excellent, the weight and quality of the trigger pull would make no difference. I don't think many have perfect trigger control, however. A trigger lighter and smoother than the stock Ruger 10/22 trigger may not improve the inherent accuracy of the rifle, but it will enhance the shootability and practical accuracy for many. The heavier the trigger pull is, the more likely the shooter will be to pull the sights off target during the trigger squeeze, unless trigger control is perfect.
I have never used the Ruger BX trigger. Many seem to like them but I have heard there is some inconsistency from unit to unit in trigger pull weight. Another very good option that is no more costly than the BX trigger, and often cheaper, is to send your trigger group off to Brimstone Gunsmithing. They have three levels of trigger work available for the Ruger 10/22 trigger. The least expensive Tier 3 trigger job costs about $54 with the two-way shipping included. You can mail your trigger group in a small padded envelope and they ship it back in a small, USPS fixed-rate box. You can select the pull weight you would like within limits, although the best results tend to come with a 2 -2 1/2 lb pull weight.
The downside is that you will be without your trigger group for up to a couple of weeks. I have had Brimstone do a Tier 3 job on one of my 10/22s and a Tier 2 job (about $40 more) on a second. The Tier 3 job replaces no parts. The Tier 2 job includes a new, alloy flat-faced trigger shoe and radial trigger spring with an over-travel stop. Both are excellent, although as expected, the Tier 2 job is a bit nicer. All of Brimstone Gunsmithing's trigger jobs include "auto-bolt release" modification of the bolt catch lever, unless you tell them that you don't want that done.
I think the Brimstone is significantly better than the BX for not a lot of money. I have both and while the BX was a cheaper than the units from Timney, etc., the Brimstone is perfect. I have the Tier 2.
All my triggers are stock and all have shot well above a 210. I have heard of really bad 10/22 triggers but never came across one myself. Spend $75 on 3 bricks of CCI Blazer and you will be much further ahead.
By the end of the second brick the gun will be settled in and you will be in a much better position to decide if you want/need a different trigger. ( I doubt you need it. Want is up to you.)
Chuck
Quote from: Catch-10-22 on September 08, 2019, 10:22:00 PM
I think the Brimstone is significantly better than the BX for not a lot of money. I have both and while the BX was a cheaper than the units from Timney, etc., the Brimstone is perfect. I have the Tier 2.
2nd, 3rd and 4th this.
The stock trigger is good enough to shoot rifleman.
But, shooting would have little appeal to me if a rack grade rifle was all I could get.
Despite being a known tightwad, I have never regretted putting a two stage Kidd trigger on my favorite 10-22, yep, I could have bought 3 new 10-22s for what it cost back in 2006. So far, thirteen years of an excellent trigger, glad I spent the money then. Will enjoy it until the eyes go dim.
Mark your logic will lead me to spend more money. A quality pre charged airgun will be coming home first though. What weight setting do you like on the Kidd trigger?
Thanks
Quote from: BamaFan7 on September 09, 2019, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: Catch-10-22 on September 08, 2019, 10:22:00 PM
I think the Brimstone is significantly better than the BX for not a lot of money. I have both and while the BX was a cheaper than the units from Timney, etc., the Brimstone is perfect. I have the Tier 2.
2nd, 3rd and 4th this.
I'll add a 5th to this. Brimstone does quality work. I have a Tier 1 and a BX job. http://brimstonegunsmithing.com/
I also have a Brimstone 2 job and have tried 3 or 4 of the BX's.IMHO go with the Brimstone,seems much better.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on September 09, 2019, 06:18:50 PM
Mark your logic will lead me to spend more money. A quality pre charged airgun will be coming home first though. What weight setting do you like on the Kidd trigger?
Thanks
I cant remember what was offered, but went to the heavy side due to damaged nerves in my trigger finger.
Might be 3lbs.
More brutal logic, you are only getting older, the sooner you buy, the more time you will have to enjoy it.
If my thoughts lead you to a sharp exchange with SWHMBO, you can tell her it was my fault.
Verbal abuse never hurts if never heard.
Edit, just looked online, the trigger seems about 100 bucks cheaper than 2006.
The heaviest offered is 2.5 lb pull. I also bought a Kidd bolt, because charging the rifle was difficult when the hammer was down. Any after market radius job on the lower rear corner should do.
The Kidd trigger group has zero parts interchangeable with the Ruger trigger group.
Thank you Mark,
Like I need more brutal logic, the new pains remind me each morning. !@#)
SWMBO is very supportive of my Applseed habit and the shooty shoot things as sha calls them that go with it. :1luvu
To the OP's subject, the last word is "needed", and that answer is
"It depends"
It depends on how accurate you want to be.
As mentioned, a stock 10/22 out of the box, equipped with tech sights or a scope, is absolutely capable of earning the Rifleman patch.
But there are better options, if one's desire is to score higher than a 210.
I've been down the road of Mom/Pop shops doing trigger jobs on the stock triggers. Those are decent, but for me they still do not squeeze the accuracy I am looking for in a trigger/rifle system.
On the 10/22 I am not much concerned with weights (although I do want them to meet minimum weight requirements for other disciplines, such as Rimfire Sporter).
What bothers me the most with stock trigger groups, is the side to side play they exhibit, and the lack of "squeeze repeatibility" between shots, even after a decent trigger job.
Ultimately, I wound up purchasing the KIDD single stage drop in triggers. I went single stage because that is the only aftermarket drop in trigger that will make weight for CMP Rimfire sporter.
A stock trigger will absolutely be sufficient for Rifleman and likely in the hands of a good marksman even may be capable to earn the Appleseed Distinguished or perfect 250.
But, if one can afford it, the Kidd drop in is the way to go. But they cost almost as much as a bare bones 10/22.
So...my response, "It Depends"......depends on what level of accuracy you are looking for and how much "jingle jangle" you are willing to fork out.
I have a post in here on my opinions of the best upgrades for accuracy on a 10/22. The #1 thing in my mind, even before an upgraded barrel, would be a trigger. Here is the link to that post:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=56699.0
The uploaded picture is a 10 shot group with a KIDD trigger at 25 yards.
R/
Chris
Now that's a group!
Quote from: Orion59 on September 12, 2019, 09:46:12 AM
Now that's a group!
It is not too bad, the group was half moon shaped, and also showed horizontal displacement, that was absolutely the trigger squeezer.
Point is, were I to shoot the same ammo/rifle with a stock trigger, the group would be larger. Now....one can learn to shoot any trigger, but there are other options out there.
What the group I posted shows me that the position was solid, as evidenced by the SUB MOA vertical dispersion. The point of aim, was the top left corner of the square, the preponderance of shots were to the right of that. So, a sight adjustment of 1/2 - 3/4 MOA left was in order.
R/
Chris
To bring this discussion back around to the original question, a stock trigger is good enough to score Rifleman. A tricked out rifle isn't required to learn the fundamentals and achieve Appleseed's mission of sharing the history of our nation's founding.
Yes, the triggers in my personal rifles are upgraded. But we should encourage people to come to our lines with the equipment they have because they can be successful in our course of fire with it.
A good stock Ruger trigger should be just fine for 'Seed. . . . . . . . But finding a good one is the trick. I went through 6 rifle boxes at the last sale here (159.99) to find a good one.
That being said. . . . .
A quick fluff and buff (polish) of the standard trigger assembly will fix a multitude of "factory" ill's. No work on the sear necessary. The biggest problem area I've found is rough edges on the hammer strut. Clean that up and use a Wolff Tune Up spring kit Brownells 969-180-750WB Wolff Kit 18075 Tune-Up Pak Mfr Part: 18075. 9 bucks and 20 min of time invested to get the trigger Ruger should have put in.
The BX triggers range from good to great, if you can, try it before you buy it. The BX's have better geometry on the parts and if you decide later Brimstone can redo it into a wow trigger.
Hornet has supplied a couple of my personal rifles. I am well pleased.
Also douglas34474 is a 'Smith , 10/22 tuner and a Appleseed guy . I've shot a few of his rifles and was quite impressed.
My 1973 Deluxe 10/22 had a good trigger, my 2009 deluxe had a horrible trigger (you could literally hang it by the trigger and the weight of the gun and scope would not make it fire). The 1973 model resulted in my first rifleman score in 2008. The Hornet trigger improved that gun. It made the 2009 model shootable in my opinion.
You do not need a tricked out gun to learn to shoot. But a good trigger never hurts. The BX works fine for most people, to be honest it is better than most people can actually use.
I like the Tony Kidd products and have used his basic trigger upgrade on a few rifles over the years. https://www.coolguyguns.com/KIDD-Trigger-Job-Kit-with-Hammer-Sear-Disconnect-and-Trigger-blade_p_95.html This is his single stage upgrade and seems fairly well priced.
We take beginners to Appleseed and teach them basics;
Proper positions: prone, standing and sitting.
The way of the sling, proper use in the positions.
Proper sight picture.
Trigger pull, don't jerk, squeeze.
Almost forgot the history.
All the above requires practice, lot of dry fire and range fire.
If the practice is correct and the rifle is actually zeroed; and the student, becomes "one with the rifle" shooting will improve,
and up to a point the marksman 210 is entirely possible with the stock rifle trigger.
It is when we start looking at the higher merits "scores" the trigger improvements become in question.
I for one, have a Brimstone trigger kit which I installed, it smoothed the trigger out and improved my impression of the 10/22 trigger pull.
All in all it is a matter of choice as to direction we chose to travel. Pursue the higher prizes or master the stock rifle?
All very good points. But study the individual shooter in question.
What are we doing here? Getting someone to shoot 210 once, or getting someone to understand a rifle?
We've all had riflemen show up to our range, they just hadn't earned the patch yet. They walked in the door as Riflemen and God love them for it.
With other students we are tasked with enlightening. "Shoot what you got" is an awesome way to start. But if a student puts thought into how do I improve this rifle? the battle is half won. They are thinking about the rifle. Is it correct to "shill" some products or mods?, no. But if a shooter approaches with an "idea" or a "discovery",, win.
"I'm thinking a better sight picture is a good idea", "I'm thinking maybe I should label my mags cuz I'm having issues", " I think a cleaner trigger pull might be a good idea". WIN. These are gun owners becoming Riflemen.
Not trying to downplay the role of the "man" in Rifleman, but concentrating on the rifle side of the team; the two feed and grow together. As I understand it,, THAT is Appleseed.
LOL,, that being said; that Ruger developed it's own after-market triggers for their 10/22 and AR tells a lot about their manufacturing and marketing priorities. FWIW, the KIDD single stage ROCKS!!!
--FF