Howdy. New guy to the forums.
Earned the patch back in 2011.
Now getting back into it.
I'm doing a KD in the near future, and have a choice between these two scopes on a 16" AR. I won't be buying anything else before the shoot. I'm torn between a reticle with hashmarked stadia with exposed turrets and 4x mag, and a fixed 1x prism with a very tiny BCD chevron.
Vortex Viper 1-4x PST in MOA
OR
Primary Arms Cyclops BCD
I have been using a Viper PST 1-4X in service rifle matches for about a year and like it, although I just switched to an Athlon Helos BTR 1-4.5×24. Between the two you listed, the Viper is a more versatile optic and will serve you better at midrange distances than a 1X prism, in my opinion.
I like zoom, personally I selected a 3-9 power. If you want a red dot though I totally get it, but at 400 yards it's going to be a very small target. With my eyes I wouldn't have qualified with out good glass to see the target. Shooting is a dance doing a lot of things at the same time, and it's your eyes your preference!
Thanks Maxwell.
I think some magnification may make for an easier day and better results.
The Cyclops 1x seems to be stretching a bit with the itty bitty chevron. She's really built for speed, and she works for that very well, with a bit of BCD distance added in. I find that at 50-100 yards, the donut of death obscures more than I'm comfortable with for precision. AT longer distance, the whole target is in teh chevron so it works out there, but there would be no visible hold off points.
I don't have the ACCS Cyclops but I have a vortex 1x prisim sight , great sight for just banging steel inside 200, really hard to be precise at distance. often the 1x almost seem like they are 0.95x
the other thing is when they have subsistence that they are pre set for a range they tend to be close but not necessarily right on
and the ranging is set to 18 inches average shoulder width and 5'10" average height but if your not gauging distance on a man , and you don't have an 18 inch wide target less useful than just a scale.
the scale is a bit more work math but if you say end up with a 10.5 inch plate set at some random distance on the KD range and you all are challenged to hit it in 1 round your prone at about 470 yards.
the other thing I find the scale useful for is if I see the impact I can take a quick how many down how many over to the impact location dial in that adjustment or hold off that much and fire a second round and often be on the target.
I think your going to appreciate some magnification at 3-400 yards
I shot my KD rifleman with a 3-9 that had no dots or hashes , ordered up a scope with it after I learned how to use them.
Thanks for the input.
These are good points.
I'd love to do it with the Cyclops mainly because that's the scope that I think will stay on the AR long term, but the Viper does seem to have several advantages for a shoot of this kind.
I would go with the 1-4 unless you have super eye sight. I have seen very few people do well with a red dot on stage 3 and 4 even on 25M targets.
You said you wanted to keep the red dot on it. Take it out and stage 3 and 4 at 25M a few times, look at your scores and see if you think you can realistically shoot score at the KD with it.
Let us know what you decide.
Chuck
When I bought a red dot for my AR, I got two different versions to compare in person. One of them had the ACSS reticle, and I ended up returning it. While the concept is neat, the chevron in the middle is just too small to really be of any use. Other people have said that the reticle works much better when paired with a 3x magnifier.
I would agree that for Appleseed, a regular scope will work much better. If you decide to go with the red dot after all, seriously consider getting a flip-down magnifier to pair with it.
I run both a Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x with a reticle similar to the Viper and an ACOG with a reticle similar to the Cyclops. Of the two, I much prefer the reticle on the AccuPower 1-4x over the ACOG. I do love my ACOG, but find the center dot of the AccuPower a much finer reference point for shooting a KD than the tip of the chevron on the ACOG. I have found that once my eyes start to get a little fatigued, the tip of that chevron becomes less of a tip a spear and more of a tip of a crayon....and that's on a 4x optic with far clearer glass than the Primary Arms 1x optic. Good luck!
I have scopes from both manufacturers, although different models. I regret both purchases. Keep in mind PA only has a three year warranty. That said, I agree that you'll definitely appreciate some magnification past 200 yards. Just a suggestion, look into Nikon. They are a great value for the $. Good luck!
I have just shot my third KD event. Between the two scopes you listed, the Vortex Viper would be my choice hands down.
Great input.
Thank you.
I especially appreciate the reasons given, rather than just your preference.
For the record, I shot rifleman with a 2MOA dot from Truglo, and can get hits on a torso at 300yds with it. Beyond that, or for smaller targets, magnification is welcome.
I'm taking the advice here and using the 1-4 Viper for the KD. That scope brought down 2 deer on the move from atop a slug gun this past season at 80 yards, so I have plenty of confidence in her.
My astigmatism, which messes with red dots, has driven me to try some prisms and LPVs so I can have a 1x for fast and close, and some distance capability. Still trying to find the best option to live on an AR.
I've got the Viper 1-4x mounted and zeroed at 25 yards, which seem ridiculously close for a centerfire rifle cartridge that can shoot flat enough keep a single zero point at 100 yards. I'd rather zero at 100 and just dial back for the 25 yard stuff, but didn't have time to get to the outdoor range.
I'm glad I am going with the Viper and it's MOA hashmarked reticle and exposed target turrets. It will be easier to dial in adjustments and keep track of where the scope is at with respect to my starting point, not to mention giving me a quantifiable way to hold off for wind.
I think you'll like 25 yards as a zero (near zero). Your far zero will depend upon ammo, equipment, and environmental conditions. You may or may not want to change to a 25 meter (near) zero when shooting squares.
Should you decide to use a dot sight, focus your eye on the dot! Focus your mind on keeping the dot on the (fuzzy) Target! ~~:)
Quote from: Badger498 on April 29, 2019, 10:51:05 PM
Thanks for the input.
These are good points.
I'd love to do it with the Cyclops mainly because that's the scope that I think will stay on the AR long term, but the Viper does seem to have several advantages for a shoot of this kind.
If I shoot 25 yards for precision, I'll probably dial it.
The adjustment to re-zero at 100 for the event was 5 minutes.
I prefer the 50 yard zero for a gun in 5.56 that I can hand to anyone to help the defense, since the shot only ever goes a few inches high, and stays on a torso out to where the average shooter could likely hit a torso sized target.
For a gun that I expect to grab for myself in defense, I like the 100 yard zero, at least right now, since shot are never high, and drops are easy to figure and dial in one direction only. For a 25 yard shot with that gun, it would be holdover and the margin of error would be an inch with a center hold. Good enough for me unless I need to pick an eyeball.
I agree on front sight, or dot, focus. It can make a big difference.
I've surprised myself in the past with how accurate shooting can be, for man sized targets, out to 300 yards, which is the extent that I've tried it. For an everyman defensive rifle, I think a dot would suffice.
For someone who knows how to shoot better and further, other sighting options can become more desirable.