Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand? And if so, which weight?
I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well. Lee seems to have the better prices.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Grin Reaper on July 31, 2007, 12:30:58 AM
Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand? And if so, which weight?
I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well. Lee seems to have the better prices.
Thoughts?
I think there were a few posts on the subject on the old site. It has been done, but doing so has some drawbacks in the Garand and even rifles in general.
Naturally, you would want the same weight range as for standard copper-clad bullets. You would also want to use a very hard lead alloy. If gas-checks are available, using them would be highly recommended. Leading of the bore would become a problem, and such deposits are most easily removed by an electrolytic device. The bullets will not have a cannelure, so bullet shift is something on which to keep an eye. Perhaps a Lee Factory crimp die could remedy the problem. You will want multi-bullet moulds, and a couple of them as one will be cooling while the other is filled. Empty the first while second is cooling, pour into first, empty second, and so on. Saves a lot of dead time waiting, and will speed up production greatly. I have never done it myself, so the above is pretty much the extent of my recollections of the advice of those who have posted on the subject. I got the impression that solid lead bullets were not entirely practical as a bullet that was shot a great deal, as one might do with practice rounds.
Hopefully someone else who has some first-hand knowledge will come along.
Never used a set of iron molds. I bought Lee molds (the .45 acp gave me excellent bullets). As I recall the molds have to be hot to give "good" bullets. Mine was a double cavity mold (2 bullets). I did not have to cool the mold between bullets. You actually have to heat it up at the beginning. Until the mold reaches its proper temperature the lead cannot form a well made bullet. The "cold" mold will give you a combination of misformed bullets and "frosting". You'll know a frosted bullet when you see it vs. a "good" bullet. Yes, I never used them for my 45 or 357 but gas checks on a rifle bullet would be a good idea. I think you'd want heavier bullets for your cast loads as the bullet will be moving quite a bit slower than the standard jackets bullets.
Seems like in the discussion on cast bullets on the old forum Ken Grant and Nickle had the most input on cast bullets for M1's. All my experience is with pistols. So I can say with those molds/bullet designs that some cast bullets will shoot great!! and you will never find a good accurate load for some bullets (so be prepared to either sell those molds and buy new ones with a different bullet design or bullet weight or keep the "bad ones" hoping you'll come across a pistol/revolver that does shoot those bullets well).
Also, shooting cast bullets will require sizing and lubing of the bullets. For pistols anyway the Lee sizer and lube kits seemed to work as well as the high dollar units sold by other manufacturers.
Don't just start melting lead. It's above 700 F when melted so make sure you read all the safey precautions in the book you buy and read before getting started so you can do it safely and continue to live a long healthy life and see what you're aiming at. Good luck.
Quote from: Grin Reaper on July 31, 2007, 12:30:58 AM
Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand? And if so, which weight?
I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well. Lee seems to have the better prices.
Thoughts?
Well, I thought this was a good post to start a new topic, so, I split it off.
Yes, the M1 can use cast bullets. I've delved into this a fair amount, and will be posting some info on this later.
Thanks, guys.
Used 180gr gas checked, Lymond mould. Cast lead with 10 to 1 part tin.
Never a sign of leading. For accuracy, all copper wash from jacketed
bullets must be removed. With the bolts I used 4831, Garands used
4895 on the moderate side due to bullet weight.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27)
Quite a bunch of info on the subject at this link.
Quote from: M1A4ME on July 31, 2007, 07:29:40 AM
Never used a set of iron molds. I bought Lee molds (the .45 acp gave me excellent bullets). As I recall the molds have to be hot to give "good" bullets. Mine was a double cavity mold (2 bullets). I did not have to cool the mold between bullets. You actually have to heat it up at the beginning. Until the mold reaches its proper temperature the lead cannot form a well made bullet. The "cold" mold will give you a combination of misformed bullets and "frosting". You'll know a frosted bullet when you see it vs. a "good" bullet. Yes, I never used them for my 45 or 357 but gas checks on a rifle bullet would be a good idea. I think you'd want heavier bullets for your cast loads as the bullet will be moving quite a bit slower than the standard jackets bullets.
Seems like in the discussion on cast bullets on the old forum Ken Grant and Nickle had the most input on cast bullets for M1's. All my experience is with pistols. So I can say with those molds/bullet designs that some cast bullets will shoot great!! and you will never find a good accurate load for some bullets (so be prepared to either sell those molds and buy new ones with a different bullet design or bullet weight or keep the "bad ones" hoping you'll come across a pistol/revolver that does shoot those bullets well).
Also, shooting cast bullets will require sizing and lubing of the bullets. For pistols anyway the Lee sizer and lube kits seemed to work as well as the high dollar units sold by other manufacturers.
Don't just start melting lead. It's above 700 F when melted so make sure you read all the safey precautions in the book you buy and read before getting started so you can do it safely and continue to live a long healthy life and see what you're aiming at. Good luck.
Actually frosting occurs form too hot of a mold or the lead itself.
Read a story in American Rifleman some years back written by a fellow who with a 165 grain bullet and a reduced charge of 4895 got good results shooting cast bullets in M1A.
Then the rifle ceased to function the action. The writer said lead had sheared off the bullets and plugged the gas port. Easy enough to clean once you get there......... He no longer shoots cast bullets in gas guns.
Clodhopper
Know a shooter localy, who shoots only cast bullets,(bolt action only), For the reason clodhopper gave. But you also have to watch for much increased barrel heat. Military type barrels are designed and made for copper jacketed bullets. Cast bullets are an larger diameter compared to the copper jacket bullets. smle
Quote from: smle on August 25, 2007, 02:38:35 AM
Cast bullets are an larger diameter compared to the copper jacket bullets. smle
If you cast your own, you can cast and size them to the size you want. I know, the past rage was a .311 cast bullet in a .308 bore.
But, some of us use .308 cast bullets in a .308 bore. 8)
One of my favorites is the Lyman 308291 bullet (these molds used to be a regular item, then special order for a while). Yeah, I did post the number right. Same as the 311291, just a little smaller.
Quote from: Grin Reaper on July 31, 2007, 12:30:58 AM
Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand? And if so, which weight?
I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well. Lee seems to have the better prices.
Thoughts?
I believe you can safely shoot cast bullets in any firearm. In fact I have shot a lot of cast bullets both of my own casting and commercial cast bullets in both rifles & handguns.
After many years of this I finally decided I enjoyed shooting more than I did scrubbing bores, cylinders, sweating over a hot melting pot, scrounging for scrap lead & tin and the sweet smell of beeswax.
Reference the comment of iron molds/aluminum molds. They both have to be HOT in order for the bullets to fill out properly. The cast iron molds take a lot longer to heat up than aluminum.
Finally I personally WOULD NOT use lead bullets, gas checked or not, in any gas ported firearm. A lot of folks did this with the Ruger 44 Mag. carbine and serious functioning problems soon developed due to lead fouling in the gas port.
If you have just got to do it, let us know how it works for you.
First, cast bullets shouldn't be used in a Glock. You can do it, if you clean very often. The Glock Polygonal Rifling causes excessive leading. Just need to clean it out more often.
About gas guns shooting lead. If you can access the gas ports to clean them (M1 Garand, M14, AK), no problem. If you can't (M1 Carbine, AR), then don't use cast bullets, because if you plug the port, you've got a real problem, and the best fix might mean a new barrel.
As to practicality of cast bullets in the M1 Garand, I'd say ask George Nonte, but he's dead now. He's done a LOT of lead through an M1.
Quote from: Nickle on September 28, 2007, 08:26:55 PM
First, cast bullets shouldn't be used in a Glock. You can do it, if you clean very often. The Glock Polygonal Rifling causes excessive leading. Just need to clean it out more often.
You are absolutely correct about Glock's & Cast bullets in the factory barrel, and I would not even dream of doing it having seen pictures of several KaBoom's!.
Some of the locals here have bought aftermarket cut rifled barrels so they can safely shoot lead bullets and do so with great sucess.
I have an aftermarket barrel for one of my Glock's, a Glock 34. My aim was to have greater accuracy. My barrel is a Storm Lake barrell. It shoot's almost as accurate as the factory barrel. In other words, it was a waste of money for me.
But then again, it might just be superb with the right cast bullet? Hummmmmm.......
I shouldn't be thinking like this................
With milsurp drying up and the price of bullets skyrocketing, I suggest y'all substitute cast boolits in reloads for the volumes of rounds needed for shooting AQT's, as 4MOA is very easily obtained, better accuracy than that is normal, and tuning your load will let you shoot cast beyond 500 yards.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php
You might want to check out some of the things I've posted here also.
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2007/10/next-steps-hot-lead.html
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2007/10/next-steps-where-have-all-bullets-gone.html
Just a suggestion.
I dont think cast will work in 556 or 7.62 rifles will it?
Cast hard, as in water-dropped from the mould, should work fine. All who have tried cast have routed the myth that 'cast boolits will clog up your gas system' or otherwise bugger up a semi-auto action. See my posts elsewhere, linked above.
I do NOT recommend using cast bullets in an M1 Carbine, and recommend avoiding them in an AR.
FAL, AK, SKS, M1 and M14/M1A are NO problem, as the ports can be accessed for cleaning.
Use a hard alloy, if you can, and water drop them to harden the rest of the way. You can even somewhat get away with water dropping them using wheel weights, as that has enough antimony to harden them. 50/50 wheel weights and linotype is one of the better alloys to use, and I'm even going to try 100% linotype. I have well over 400 pounds of it, and no you can't have or buy any, as it's almost impossible to get.
Quote from: Nickle on February 20, 2008, 02:54:28 PM
I'm even going to try 100% linotype. I have well over 400 pounds of it, and no you can't have or buy any, as it's almost impossible to get.
ooops... I was at an estate sale a little while back of a guy who shot himself and he was a reloader. He had over a pick up load of little boxes of the lead linotype stuff stacked on pallets in his barn. Old red wax paper boxes with the lead wrapped in paper inside. I had no idea what it was for. Also all kinds of other lead products, boxes and boxes of them. I would guess he had two pick up loads altogether.
But I had no idea what it was, I guessed for bullets, but was not sure. Right next to the linotype stuff was hundreds of boxes of replacement wieghts for some kind of an "as advertised on TV" wieght pouch people wore around their waists. They eventually took it all to the salvage yard for scrap.
:'( :'( :'(
Proof again that:
Knowledge is power.
Lead bullets in a Glock causing kabooms is dead wrong. The real story behind the kabooms was a lack of foresight by the engineers at Glock. The took the 9mm and 10mm barrels and just enlarged the chambers to accomodate the 40 and 45 cal rounds making the chamber walls thinner. Glock used the same heat-treat process as the thicker walled chambers and they became too brittle.
Most of these kabooms came from "older" guns prior to changing the heat treat process. I have personally seen one of these cases and know the "inside story". Glock will never admit that their process was flawed, even for a short time, hence the lead bullets in a Glock is BAD NEWS story.
Lead bullets in a Glock factory barrel should pose no problems at all. Just be sure to use a fairly hard lead slug.
I'll disagree with the Glock info, and state why. Remember, my ex owned a Glock, while we were together, and I did a bunch of research on them, plus bought some books.
The big Glock problem was created when they came out with a .40 cal Glock. They built it on the 9mm frame, and the frame was too weak for the .40. The specific problem was the cross pin in the frame. The fix was to add another cross pin, and the problem was solved.
This problem only exists on small frame Glocks up to a certain date and serial number range.
It does NOT exist on the large frame Glocks (10mm and .45), as they were not introduced until AFTER the fix was made to the small frame guns.
Also, know that Glock is said to have built the .45 on the 10mm frame, instead of build the 10mm on the .45 frame, which is what most companies did. The 10mm is higher pressure than the .45. Most folks don't realize that.
The leading issue with Glocks is due to the polygonal rifling. This rifling tends to increase the rate of leading.
Therefore, shooting cast bullets in a Glock is NOT recommended. Now, you can do it, IF (and only IF) you keep your barrel cleaned on a regular basis, and make sure to remove the excess leading. Most people either don't shoot enough cast bullets in them to be an issue, or clean them. But, that being said, there are those out there that will shoot them until they blow up. Remember, leading happens to ALL guns shooting cast bullets, not just Glocks. Glocks just lead at a faster rate.
Bringing this thread back on course. I have been doing som research on cast bullets and will soon start experimenting on a M1 load.
That said, appleseed shoots are usually windy with dirt blowing across the fireing line. Cast bullets need lube which is usually sticky.
I may never shoot any cast M1 loads at an appleseed.
Perhaps you folks blessed with a grass fireing line can make it work.
There are no significant issues shooting cast in the M1 Rifle.
I have been shooting cast in mine for over 20 years and I'm pretty satisfied.
You will get some lead in the gas system and after a couple of hundred rounds it may it stop functioning.
Just clean the d@%N rifle Takes about 90 seconds to remove it and get back in action, Pull the gas plug, run a chamber brush into the gas cyl, replace the plug and get back on the line.
Whole lot of to do over nothing.
You can make light loads (2000 fps with 170 gr bullets) with slower powders and still get reliable functioning or work for heavier loads although reliable results over 2400 fps are nearly impossible.
Sam
Sam,
What powder are you useing? I still have not even loaded any rounds, but I have a nice pile of water dropped wheel weight 165 grainers. Planning on starting with 35 grains of 4895.
From what I've seen, the best bet for using cast bullets in a gas operated semi-auto is to use slower than normal powders. 4895 will work, but 4831, 4350 and others work even better.
Of course, 4831 and 4350 run higher port pressures than the faster powders. Regular jacketed loads this can wreck an op rod, but with the slower velocity and pressure cast loads, the port pressure gets dropped to normal.
Thanks Nickle,
I have read that also about lighter loads of slower powder, the thing driving me to 4895 is I have about 10 lbs of it and darn little 4350 or 4831.
I do know where to buy more. Dirt be darned, I plan to be shooting the M1 at the Three Forks Constitution Day shoot. Since I only have 3 10-22s and promised them to more than three people.
I'm currently using A bunch oif old powder I have on hand, Herters 101. It is pretty much a dupe of IMR4320. Using 39 grains and getting getting a nice steady 2050 fps + or - 15 fps. Not really great but it'll hold a half inch at 25 which means it'll do much better at longer range. At 25 yards the bullets haven't "gone to sleep yet.
I have 8 lbs of it in real good shape so I can't afforsd to just pitch it even if it is over 40 years old.
Any of you old powder can collectors yell if you want any cans for your collection. I have 30 lbs of assorted Herters powders
Sam
Hello Group; After much input from other Appleseeders I have added TWO .30 RIFLE moulds. They are both a gas checked hard cast lead alloy bullet sized to .309 and lubed with the best Rooster Labs has to offer.
NEWRCBS .30 165grn SIL 82152 with Hornady #7070 copper gas checks 90.00 per 1000
NEWLyman .30 170 grn RN 311291 with Hornady #7070 copper gas checks 90.00 per 1000
PM me your needs. Pappy
I have been shootong cast bullets for over thirty years and have not had a problem yet, I always use my lyman lubersizer and make my own lube with alox, beeswax and powdered teflon,mand strictly use linotype for everything except BP, where I use pure lead.
If you really want to get the higher velocity then use gas checks behind water dropped linotype. There are still a very few print shops around that you can find hand set type and I have a shop that I am still able to buy 30 lb pigs of linotype from, so just get on the phone and look around. One thing I do recomend is that you use dedicated pots for melting so as not to contaminate your pure lead.
Good shooting!
okiewino out
Hi everybody.
I am new to appleseed shooting and to this forum.
Also I am new to casting lead, and I have some questions regarding the last one:
I have some quantity of lead I salvaged from one of local ranges. I assume lead is oxidized, do I have to deoxidize it? How can I do it (I am not a chemist). Should I put something in to melting pat? How to use the flux and what to use for flux?
Any thoughts?
After looking at this thread, I still have a few questions. So far I've only reloaded a few FMJ rifle rounds, but do have some pistol reloading background, although none of it has been with cast either.
I see Nickle's powder recomendations, the only rifle powder I have on hand right now is H4895 and prospects for others seem bleak in this market. What bullet wts do you recomend for Garand practice ammo & how do you go about determining a start load? I only have a Lee Manual, but will pick up a Lyman ASAP for more cast bullet data. I've always been told not to load below recomended start loads to avoid problems associated with low pressure (although I've never understood why). I don't have access to a chrony.
Do you recomend gas checks? How about crimping? Any other pitfalls I should worry about?
Thanks
Guy
Check out this forum. Looks like a lot of good info and a lot of helpful folks for advice.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php
I'm about to order some cast lead rifle bullets and start (first for my US Enfield and later for the Garand).
You can use rifle powders (at reduced loads for reduced velocity) or pistol powder. There seems to be a velocity ceiling (due to a drop off in accuracy even if you don't get leading issues first). I don't mind shooting what will be similar to a bolt action 30-30 (velocity and power wise) at 25 meter distances.
Hello Group; I would like to report good results, With a load that was recomended by Fellow Appleseeders and cast bullet shooters. Thanks Fellows. a powder charge of 36 grains of H4831 and Lyman 170 gr Cast gaschecked bullets out of my standard M1A gave clover leaf sized groups! Recoil was down and so was the noise, as compaired to surplus ammo. This seems like it would be a great load for what we are doing. Pappy
Good deal Pappy.
There is a cast load out there for every gun, just a matter of finding yours #)
Sam
Any loads using IMR4350 perchance ? Only ask 'cause I've got a big can of it.
Hello Group; I would like to take this time to say Thanks to Sam D #). for putting the perspective on the cast bullet loads I had been working on. I had asked Sam last fall what bullet he liked, He gave me a logical choice. I asked another respected Appleseeder his choice and he gave me his choice Thanks Nickle. From that basis I made my choice after looking over all the loading data I have.
One of the things that has drawn folks like us to this group is the original thought of helping others enjoy our sport making us all stronger with the knowledge we share with each other. Pappy
One caution about using any cast or lead tipped bullet in a garand or other semi-auto. Clean your chamber thoroughly afterwards and use a chamber brush. As the bullet tip gets shoved up the feed ramp, there is a tendancy to shave a little bit of lead off. This can get carried up into the chamber and it can build up until you start having problems with ejection, chambering, or pressure if it accumulates in the shoulder or neck areas.
Lyman and Lee both have good books on casting and loading lead bullets.
Quote from: Joe on July 31, 2009, 03:47:51 AM
One caution about using any cast or lead tipped bullet in a garand or other semi-auto. Clean your chamber thoroughly afterwards and use a chamber brush. As the bullet tip gets shoved up the feed ramp, there is a tendancy to shave a little bit of lead off. This can get carried up into the chamber and it can build up until you start having problems with ejection, chambering, or pressure if it accumulates in the shoulder or neck areas.
Hello Joe; Thats good advice, during the load development inspections of the round after it was stripped from the mag and chambered consistently showed NO signs of deformation, or shaving. The round when loaded had the bullet seated and gently crimped in the crimping groove. Also the bullet is hard cast alloy a bit harder that Lyman #2.
The problem you mention can be caused from seating the bullet out to far. It can also be caused by not using the correct size neck expander for the size of your bullets, you can not get by with the same expander ball you would use for jacketed if your loading a .309 dia bullet you will deform and shave each bullet during the loading process, not helping the accuracy. Yes Lyman has a great hand book on casting... Pappy
Quote from: KodyJaret on July 30, 2009, 03:38:53 AM
Any loads using IMR4350 perchance ? Only ask 'cause I've got a big can of it.
Kody,
If you check castboolits@gunloads.com there is considerable info on cast bullets with a section on garands. Your 4350 may work well but can damage your rifle unless down loaded. Do not use data compiled for jacketed bullets in bolt action .30'06.
With all this ammo madness going around you might be able to trade that 4350 for some thing else.
Hey Clod,,
I did note the the numbers in these data intended for the M1 and mentioned it to Pap,,,But it seems Pap is making it work, perhaps the reduced charges also reduce 'port pressure', which is the bugaboo here.
As for the 4350,,,it will do the work it has always done; in my bolt -gun.
Thanks for the concern. Two heads, etc.........
Actually, the trouble with using 4350 and cast bullets in an M1 might be that it's TOO FAST, not too slow.
You'll need to reduce the loads some (quite a bit), as 2700 is way too fast for any cast bullets I know of, even straight Linotype.
4831 seems to be OK for this, as when the load is reduced enough to drop the velocity, the port pressure is correct.
So, I'd try the 4350, knowing that it might not be slow enough to give enough port pressure to function the action when using the reduced loads you need for cast bullets.
Now, using either 4831 or 4350 for jacketed bullet loads at anything near normal velocities is a sure way to wreck an operating rod.
I fianally broke down and got some 4831, very promising results with Pappy's data. A little to much "M" die action though. Have to back that off so they chamber.
Took a crazy detour with paper patching for M-1. It did not work for me, had trouble with the paper catching on the chamber and folding back causing poor accuracy.
Hello Group; There are a few things that have come to light shooting these Hard cast bullets. One is that if you use the minimum amount of powder (36 grn of 4831 in a 7.62x51) that it takes to work the action you can end up with a failure to eject. Another issue with using to little powder is failure to feed, the bolt did not come far enough back to pickup the next round. A easy fix in a M1A is to load the rounds forward in the mag. This helps
a failure to feed but will not cure a failure to eject.
The Starting load can very with each rifle I have had much better results with 39 grns of 4831.
In my opinion FWIW each reloader must test the load in the rifle they plan on using for function under adverse and normal conditions.
Use caution when reloading, we need you on the line. Stay safe and keep them in the black.. Pappy
Up date on .30'06 M-1 cast bullet loads, The 4831 at least in my experience is difficult to get a clean burn in reduced loads. I could get enough pressure for function, but un burned kernals of powder would be in the chamber as another round came in to it. After a few rounds enough unburned powder would build up in the shoulder area to prevent the rifle going into battery.
Tryed inert case filler with the same results.
Thought about but did not try magnum primers.
The project laid undisturbed for months until thumbing through Richard Lee's modern reloading my eye fell upon cast bullet data for RL 22.
I have the second edition and the data is printed on page 154. I will not reccomend load data but for those of you who care to consult my source, I used enough RL22 to give a published pressure of 2500 with 180 grain bullet.
With a very good burn that left no kernals of powder in the barrel or chamber.
The accuracy is still not what I seek, and more work on that is forthcomming.
I reccomend that anyone who is intrested in this, read chapter 10 of Modern Reloading second editon by Richard Lee.
I shoot saeco 315 (gc), rcbs x-die, 21.5 gr. of 2400 and can shoot riflemen scores all day with my m1a.
I have similiar loads for the m1 garand but use a heavier bullet usually with 4831.
I use around 19 grains of 2230 and the RCBS 55 grain in the AR platform.
Been doing this for years and years with no adverse effects.
Definitely check out cast boolit forum if you are interested.
Glad it's working for you, I wonder if my biggest problem is to much rapid fire.
If I just shot two and eight then gave it a break, maybe leading the gas port would be minimized.
I'm with Guilford above on this one. I use 2400 for 30 cal cast bullets. My best one is Lyman 311291U. That was for undersized and has been replaced by 308291. It's a gas checked bullet. I use Hornady crimp-on gas checks and they stay with the bullet. I cast my first bullet in 1947. I use wheel weights. My lube is Tydol water pump grease. No, you can't get it any more.
As to cast bullet casting temperatures, I use a common wooden kitchen match. Just take a used match and dip it into o molten lead for three seconds. When you pull it out the match should be golden brown. I have no idea what that temperature is. It just works. I get no leading with reasonable loads.
In my opinion, salvaged lead from the range should only be used for casting sinkers or duck decoy anchors.
By the way; On my Redcoat target with my M14 this past weekend you could cover my three shots on the 400 yard target with a penny and I got the head shot too.
Dangerous old men.