I'm new to the Appleseed world, so please forgive me if I am stepping on toes here...
I looked in this area of the forum and did not see a thread about this, so I thought I would solicit opinions from this community. I've done 2 Appleseed events and accepted the Orange Hat. After an upcoming Instructor Boot Camp, my next goal is a KD event. I do not currently have a rifle that would work well in that area so I am shopping (I love my M1 Carbine, but optics on that platform are a pain!). What are the differences, pros & cons, ? Thanks in advance for advice and suggestions.
Thanks for stepping up! You asked for opinions, which is a dangerous thing here :). Aesthetically, I like the Mini 14, but I own and shoot an AR-15. It's less expensive, easier to make it fit you, easier to mount optics, and easier to accurize. The only reason to buy a Mini 14 is if you like the looks (perfectly valid, IMO) or live in a non-free state.
Thanks! From what I can tell so far, an important consideration is that there are an infinite number of options for personalizing the AR platform vs the Mini14. I think most would agree that we all like to put our own finishing touches on our rifles.
Hands down the AR. You can get them cheap nowadays too. I'm on a budget so I did this:
Bought my youngest son a Palmetto State Arms AR with free float handguard and came with Magpul BUIS too for 450 bucks. And you really do want a free float handguard. They seem to be cheaper if you buy the upper and lower separately - plus you can setup the way you want. I like the A2 stock so I did this:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-complete-rifle-lower-receiver-a2.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-complete-rifle-lower-receiver-a2.html)
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-phosphate-5-56-nato-1-7-gray-moe-sl-upper-with-bcg-ch-rear-mbus-516445899.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-mbus-sight-set-no-bcg-or-ch-5165448509.html)
Then put a cheap Primary Arms 5X Prism (great scope) for another 250 and the rifle rocks.
Scope review here: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52386.0 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52386.0)
I've had both. I find the AR easier to shoot, cheaper to customize, easier to scope, and a lot cheaper for parts such as mags. With an ok brand or build, I find the accuracy of the AR much more than a mini 14. Ymmv.
I agree, ar is the winner. They don't call the ar "adult legos" for nothing. So easy to change something you don't like with the plethora of aftermarket parts. I love the wood and steel 30 cal rifles but I shoot an ar much better as it fits me better. I love my national match ar. If only the 308 ar were standaridized….
FYI-If you're building or swapping out parts, Geissele generally has killer black Friday deals on their website. I bought a trigger a few years back from their website cheaper than I could find anywhere else for sale and got a free quality baseball hat and shipping.
Thanks to all - very helpful!
Quote from: scuzzy on November 12, 2018, 08:22:20 PM
And you really do want a free float handguard.
Scuzzy, can you elaborate on this please?
AR for the win IMO. The Mini has a rep for not being as accurate. Not saying it's a bad firearm I have both. One big advantage (again IMO) will be in the timed stages of the AQT. The magazine changes on the Mini can get a little tricky where the AR they just drop out and slide back in. If you're truly interested in Firearms you'll end up with both in the end provided as mentioned if the laws in your State allow.
Quote from: ArmyVet1969 on November 12, 2018, 08:43:02 PM
Thanks to all - very helpful!
Quote from: scuzzy on November 12, 2018, 08:22:20 PM
And you really do want a free float handguard.
Scuzzy, can you elaborate on this please?
I will fill in for scuzzy,
The free float handguard prevents sling pressure from pulling the barrel down.
The barrel in an AR will flex in the upper, without the free float your sling is attached to the barrel.
This is not a big problem with the mini 14
Price magazines and available options for RELIABLE magazines and I think your decision will be pretty easy.
You can buy a really nice AR for the price of the mini. I would spend the rest on a magazines, sling, scope and mounts and ammo.
If you can barrow each of them and decide for yourself. I'm quite sure there are instructors and shoot hers near you that will gladly loan you a rifle for testing purposes.
Thank you for stepping up.
Chuck
Quote from: Charles McKinley on November 12, 2018, 09:46:00 PM
Thank you for stepping up.
Yeah - forgot to add that. Thanks for stepping up ArmyVet1969.
Noticed the combat medic medal on your avatar. Got one that always sits on my desk in front of me. Right below my computer monitor. It's my old man's badge - 1967-1969 First Cav.
Another vote for an AR with free floated barrel. Ergonomics, economics and accuracy all go to the AR.
Bob
Quote from: ArmyVet1969 on November 12, 2018, 08:43:02 PM
Thanks to all - very helpful!
Quote from: scuzzy on November 12, 2018, 08:22:20 PM
And you really do want a free float handguard.
Scuzzy, can you elaborate on this please?
You'll want a free float hand guard to ensure that no forces are acting on the barrel itself (i.e. your sling) when you've built your solid shooting position using a sling. Helps preserve accuracy.
Thanks to all for explaining the free floating handguards. Did some reading on those as well. It's the little things that add up.
Of course VietVet was going to go for the AR what else is new, but me on the other hand.. I love Americas' ak47 or better known as the Ranch Rifle - Mini14..
Haven't y'all heard the news that Black Rifles are bad, CNN and a few Senators told me so, but my Ranch Rifle with wooden spoterstock is acceptable..
JW
Quote from: Josey Wales on November 13, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
Of course VietVet was going to go for the AR what else is new, but me on the other hand.. I love Americas' ak47 or better known as the Ranch Rifle - Mini14..
Haven't y'all heard the news that Black Rifles are bad, CNN and a few Senators told me so, but my Ranch Rifle with wooden spoterstock is acceptable..
JW
[imitates certain South Park school principal character] Only ghost guns are bad, mkay? Ya know, the ones that fire 700 rounds a second, mkay?
Quote from: Josey Wales on November 13, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
Of course VietVet was going to go for the AR what else is new, but me on the other hand.. I love Americas' ak47 or better known as the Ranch Rifle - Mini14..
Haven't y'all heard the news that Black Rifles are bad, CNN and a few Senators told me so, but my Ranch Rifle with wooden spoterstock is acceptable..
It's fun to pair a Ruger AC-556 with an AR-15 and ask someone which is the assault rifle (says a guy whose state just passed a law defining the Ruger 10/22 as a "semiautomatic assault rifle" :wb: :wb:).
I haven't bothered reading the California gun laws. I did browse through the Connecticut draconian gun laws. Lots of mine fields. The way they are written, as an example (among many other things) put a thumbhole stock on a Ruger 10-22, and now you have transformed it into a dreaded assault rifle. Those wishing to visit that state (and plan on taking their own rifles there) need to read Appleseed's info for that event.
aj
https://youtu.be/XV5Wm42puGE
Quote from: Josey Wales on November 13, 2018, 01:47:20 PM
https://youtu.be/XV5Wm42puGE
Thanks! The magazine insertion does cause some concern, but that probably because I am so use to the M16/M4 platform from 22 years of Army repetition. I imagine practice would overcome that. But still a concern nevertheless.
Go Mini 14, makes the AQT more of a challenge, vs. the AR.
the Mini 14 is the first rifle I ever sold , and I sold it to finance building another AR
everything you need to build an AR fits in single tool bag , not even a big one. build them at your kitchen table
all the parts and mags are made to a specification so they all work
you definitely want to free float that barrel , it does make a difference when you sling up.
you don't need to go heavy , a 6.5 pound gun with optic can shoot very well when you do a KD chances are you put on some miles carrying your rifle
as for AK I sold that to build another AR you know once you have one AR you need one for every one in the family.
I had purchased them both very cheap back many years from friends who needed money at the time
HR 7115 in the US House, introduced a few days ago, would regulate both AR 15 uppers and lowers and prohibit all parts kits. As well as eliminate 80% lowers. It also would declare all semi-autos as assault weapons, in preparation for a new assault weapons ban. Doubtful this would pass the Senate, but it would likely jack up prices way high as a minimum.
So, if you are thinking about building a new toy, the good old days are NOW. Prices are about to go through the roof, not to mention causing parts shortages.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/kat-ainsworth/goodbye-ar-builds-hello-h-r-7115-nationwide-proposed-ban-in-the-works/
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/13/democrats-introduce-bill-banning-sales-and-advertisements-for-gun-parts-kits/
â€" gb
QuotePrice magazines and available options for RELIABLE magazines and I think your decision will be pretty easy.
Nuff said. The bolt on the mini has to run through the feed lips and I have yet to see anything but factory mags ($$$) work consistently.
I second what Guntuckian said also - we tend to think the current pricing is somehow now "standard". It is not. I'd say our window of opp for these prices is closing swiftly.
PH
Quote from: PHenry on November 14, 2018, 11:07:43 AM
I'd say our window of opp for these prices is closing swiftly.
This. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's a short matter of time before pricing chaos ensues.
As I said earlier.....GET BOTH.
YES..... I understand the economic issue.
BUT.....the way things are headed especially if you're located in the Northeast your window of opportunity to do so is closing rapidly. They're both nice Firearms so you won't regret owning them. Both fire the same round so ammo is interchangeable.
This may sound crazy but it's just my opinion.
The next ban is rapidly approaching. :wb:
I know you didn't ask, and it's not the popular opinion, but I'll say it anyway:
I certainly do love my M1A. I do well with iron sights, but it can be scoped with the right stock or accessory. I also seem to be less concerned than the AR-15 shooters with windage at those known distances.
And, I kid you not: Yesterday I read an opinion piece talking about how the AR cartridges are MUCH more deadly than the .30 caliber cartridges (wish I could find that article again to post). So clearly, society deems this the more acceptable cartridge >:D
If your only choices are the mini or the AR, though - go with the AR. No surprise that I said it, it's clearly the group favorite here.
Quote from: AF5US on November 14, 2018, 02:22:56 PM
I know you didn't ask, and it's not the popular opinion, but I'll say it anyway:
I welcome your opinion - no worries there!
I've considered getting the rail add=on for my M1 Carbine, but I have read mixed reviews about the reliability of maintaining zero. Also, to remove the bolt the add-on must be removed and then you have to re-zero. Any thoughts on the M1 Carbine for KD?
Unfortunately I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with the M1 Carbine, so I'm not the best guy to ask. If there's anyone else here that is, feel free to speak up.
I can say that the cartridge should be perfectly fine for known distances.
I can also say that if your eyesight allows you to see the target, then iron sights are an option. One of the reasons I love my M1A is because of the long sight plane that it supports, and after reading various forums I know I'm not alone. Whether irons are the best option, or even a good option, depends on you I suppose. Scopes can give benefits, there's no doubt about it. They can also introduce problems all their own. I can go on for a while on that topic, but I won't because I don't think that's what you're asking (unless I'm wrong).
Food for thought, whatever that is worth: Whether at a 25m event or at a full KD, the Project Appleseed goal is to make a 4 MOA or better shooter. The KD event, at the furthest distance, will be a 4 MOA target. That said, last month we ended the KD with everyone taking 6 shots at a steel target at 500 meters. No one did better than 3 of 6 shots. I was one of two people that made those three of six shots while using irons (others hit 3/6 with scopes). We then went down to a 2 MOA target at 500 meters, and I connected on that also. Not trying to brag, just trying to point out that irons can hold their own, and (in my humble opinion) offer some advantages over scopes.
Oh, and because I didn't say it earlier - Thanks for taking an orange hat! :F
Quote from: ArmyVet1969 on November 14, 2018, 02:39:06 PM
Quote from: AF5US on November 14, 2018, 02:22:56 PM
I know you didn't ask, and it's not the popular opinion, but I'll say it anyway:
I welcome your opinion - no worries there!
I've considered getting the rail add=on for my M1 Carbine, but I have read mixed reviews about the reliability of maintaining zero. Also, to remove the bolt the add-on must be removed and then you have to re-zero. Any thoughts on the M1 Carbine for KD?
My experience with a m1 carbine is limited and I've never been to a KD event (yet) so take it what it's worth but I wouldn't go to one with a m1 carbine. Not when you're most likely going to have to drive far enough you'll need a hotel room or place to camp a few nights along with other cost like food/drink, ammo, time/effort. The one carbine I shot was not particularly accurate and given the relatively slow muzzle velocity with a rather blunt bullet, at 400 yards the bullet is going to be dropping like a rock. I don't know how much elevation adjustment there is on carbine sights. I won't say you couldn't qualify kd with one, but it certainly wouldn't be my first choice. If you do qualify kd with one, then :bow: Depending on your attachment to the carbine, it could be sold to fund a different rifle.
I shoot my ar the best but I do love the M1A/M14 types and Garands as well. After the ar I shoot my M1A better then my Garand. M1A mags will cost about $20 each but they are built like a tank. If you go for an M1A, go with CMI mags. I've seen some nice M1A's sell on gunbroker for $1000-1100 in the last few months. Garands are even cheaper and the clips are cheap as well. And they both are in the "socially acceptable" 30 cal ^:)^ An ar would be cheaper, and more accurate than either one. I recently had a 300 yard range open prettly close by so I can't wait to see how all 3 do at 300. Prior to that it was 100 yards.
Ammo would be cheaper for 223 as opposed to he 30 caliber options. Reloading will bring the cost down more but 30 cal is still more expensive.
These are the "good old days." If nothing else, stock up on "high capacity" mags for the rifle you choose.
This is the one point where I think we'd have to "agree to disagree." No hard feelings; I've just found that I'm more accurate with my M1A vs. my AR-15. Could just be me, though. I'm weird. #)
QuoteAn ar would be . . . more accurate than either one.
Quote from: AF5US on November 14, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
This is the one point where I think we'd have to "agree to disagree." No hard feelings; I've just found that I'm more accurate with my M1A vs. my AR-15. Could just be me, though. I'm weird. #)
LOL - well my rifle is more accurate than yours. :~
All kidding aside I like all things that go bang. If I had the money I might get an M1A but a good one is priced too high. And I'm kinda married to my current AR and she would get pissed if I got another gun.
OK - M1 Carbine. I vaguely remember that trajectory was similar to a 30/30. So I checked just out of curiosity.
The bullet drop is substantial especially after 200 yards and loses lots of kick:
http://gundata.org/cartridge/52/.30-m1-carbine
Here's some really cool history on the carbine by the way:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/14/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-m1-carbine/
Quote from: scuzzy on November 14, 2018, 07:02:32 PM
OK - M1 Carbine. I vaguely remember that trajectory was similar to a 30/30. So I checked just out of curiosity.
The bullet drop is substantial especially after 200 yards and loses lots of kick:
http://gundata.org/cartridge/52/.30-m1-carbine
I looked at that same place about 20 minutes ago! Great minds, I reckon. That pretty much convinced me that an M1 Carbine is not the rifle of choice for a KD beyond 200 yds! Based on what I had read here, I am fairly certain that I will be adding an AR to my inventory. Of course, that is pending approval of my bride.
Many thanks to all for the info and opinions. I feel very fortunate to have found a group of people that can give opinions based on real experience. Thank you all :beer:
Quote from: AF5US on November 14, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
This is the one point where I think we'd have to "agree to disagree." No hard feelings; I've just found that I'm more accurate with my M1A vs. my AR-15. Could just be me, though. I'm weird. #)
Hehe. It's probably me, I think I lost my mind earlier in the year and I haven't found it back. At my first Appleseed a long time back I did get to shoot one AQT on a KD range just using the "standard" come-ups, no sighters. I didn't have my AR at that time and did pretty well with my M1A through 300 yards. Fired a few rounds into my neighbors target at 400 so I didn't do well. :slap: :slap:
Maybe this will help.
https://youtu.be/kAiyyZVdwEI
Figured somebody had to give some love to the mini 14, so here goes. The one advantage I've seen with the mini-14 is that it'll eat just about any ammo you throw into it with fewer malfunctions. No dreaded bolt-over jams because of the open action. Can't remember last time I had any malfunction with mine but I see them regularly with AR-15s, nearly every event. Simple to see and clear if it does happen. Since you don't have gas blowing crud all over your bolt every round, like most ARs, rarely even ever have to clean it. I've even fed the older cheap steel-cased stuff through it without any problems.