I'm doing my first KD in early November. I can shoot a Rifleman score with a 22LR just about every AQT I attempt with an average around 230. I went round and round on what rifle to bring (M1, M14, AR15), but have finally decided on AR15 as I intend to move that direction for Service Rifle matches. My rifle is a box stock Colt AR15A4 with a 20" barrel (1:7 twist) wearing a Nikon P-223 1.5-4.5x20 scope. No free floating handguard, no trigger work. It is sighted in at 100 yards.
Does anyone have any experience with what cartridge works well in this barrel? I realize the M855 62 gr green tip stuff is what the military specs for this rifle, but it's not very accurate. It reportedly returns about 3.5-4 MOA on average. The faster twist works well with heavier, longer bullets but after much Googling I could not find any decent research results on what actually returns the best accuracy.
What I learned but have not tested:
- 55 grain bullets are borderline too light for the faster twist and higher velocity of this barrel. Irrelevant at 25 meters, might not show up at 100 yards, but most likely will at longer KD ranges.
- Military-style FMJ bullets are generally crap when it comes to repeatable accuracy
- Open tip SMK bullets do much better
- The sweet spot seems to be in the 69-80 grain bullet weight range
Does anyone have any real world experience with this? Google is great, but you never know who's at the other end on that keyboard. I tend to find more good info here among the talented shooters of Appleseed.
Thanks!
I have a Rock River national match AR 15, 1 in 8 twist. I just shoot 75 and 77 grain bullets. Match kings, Amax, Vmax and such.
From the description of your rifle, the non free floated barrel is likely to be a bigger issue at 400 yards than ammo choice.
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 18, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
I have a Rock River national match AR 15, 1 in 8 twist. I just shoot 75 and 77 grain bullets. Match kings, Amax, Vmax and such.
From the description of your rifle, the non free floated barrel is likely to be a bigger issue at 400 yards than ammo choice.
I may free float it later, but wanted to see how I can do with something that has had no work at all. How well does your RR shoot with those loads? Is it a sub MOA rifle?
fast twist barrels don't have to shoot light bullets poorly.
it may take a better balanced bullet to fly well but it doesn't have to be a heavier bullet .
think about the 243 rifles used in varmint hunting they are sending 58gr bullets down range at 3800fps in a 1:9 twist and getting good accuracy on small targets at 300 yards.
my 1:8 20 inch free float 223 shoots my 55gr hornady SP reload very well at 400 yards 10 rounds just under 1moa.
while I have not had either of my 1:7 twist 16 inch barrels out to 400 yet they look very promising withe same load.
try a non bulk , non military ammo like a hornady match and hornady custom in 55 and 68 maybe heavier if you like run it on a good rest with sand bags or similar and see what the gun tells you.
be prepared for your groups to open up when you sling up without a free floated barrel mine did considerably
if you move the sling off the the front sight post and to the middle of the hand-guard you will likely see less effect on the group shot from a sling.
bulk and military loaded ammo seems to compromise quality for quantity the same gun that shoots MOA with 55sp to 400 yards with reloads is almost twice the group size with bulk xm193 55gr that is still 2moa and will keep you in the black but frustrating.
FMJ is a bullet built backwards tip to base , better consistency is gained from base to tip construction like open tip match, ballistic tip ,and SP ammo . this doesn't mean fmj has to be inaccurate a friend purchased some re-manufactured 223 recently had is getting the best results he has ever seen from fmj sub moa groups at 100 yards.
I think it comes down to the big manufacturers have learned people aren't that picky about bulk ammo or military ammo and they can sell all that they can make if they run the machines faster and get less accurate ammo few people notice or care enough for it to hurt sales. so quantity over quality as long as they don't go to far degraded.
I haven't had a round yet that shot well at 200 not keep to the same MOA or very close out to further distances if you can test at 200 if you can run what looks the best there out to the longer ranges.
Quote from: HammBone on October 18, 2018, 09:50:12 AM
- 55 grain bullets are borderline too light for the faster twist and higher velocity of this barrel. Irrelevant at 25 meters, might not show up at 100 yards, but most likely will at longer KD ranges.
- Military-style FMJ bullets are generally crap when it comes to repeatable accuracy
- Open tip SMK bullets do much better
- The sweet spot seems to be in the 69-80 grain bullet weight range
For Appleseed, you have a better-than-rack-grade rifle, thanks to Nikon glass. Any 55 grain M193 is generally more accurate than 62 grain M855, in my experience, and it's fine from a 1:7 twist barrel. I use it for 100-200 yard practice, when I don't feel like shooting handloads. Lots of guys on this forum have shot KD with M193, and you can too!
The main reason I shoot Sierra 69s for 100-200 yard matches is because the projectile is more consistent, and those flyers are guaranteed to be my fault. The advantage of heavier bullets is that they're less affected by wind than the 55s, but you likely won't notice the difference at 100-200 unless you shoot in high winds. You'll get some benefit from the higher ballistic coefficient at 300, and definitely at 400 and beyond. I used 69 SMKs for my KD qualifier, because that's all I had on hand at the time, and I knew I wouldn't blame the ammo if I didn't hit the target.
Since you mentioned Service Rifle, specifically, I use a Rock River float tube: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-m16-nm-free-float-barrel-sleeve-prod9943.aspx (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-m16-nm-free-float-barrel-sleeve-prod9943.aspx). The Sierra 77 is fine from 200-600, and saves messing about with different loads for each distance. Supposedly you can gain a bit at 600 using an 80 grain bullet, but they can't be loaded to magazine length, so they're not appropriate for Appleseed KD. I don't hold hard enough yet to see a benefit of the 80 vs. 77 at 600, but I use them anyway because it makes me feel better in the ridiculous winds we get here.
Ah, see! This is the kind of quality feedback I have grown to expect from this community. Great info. I will try the 77 SMK and have ordered that handguard. I have no clue what weather we'll have in NE Ohio in early November, but it seems the wind blows all the time.
I have shot rifleman with ar-15 several times. With a 20" A2 and 16" M4 (style). I tried 55grn, 62grn, 69grn, 75grn. Windy conditions blow 55grn at 400 yards but you can still hit the score. All the dropped 13 moa at 300 yards. I used Wolf gold, green tip and military 69 grn surplus. You can shoot the score with surplus and off the shelf.
Quote from: HammBone on October 18, 2018, 10:36:09 AM
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 18, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
I have a Rock River national match AR 15, 1 in 8 twist. I just shoot 75 and 77 grain bullets. Match kings, Amax, Vmax and such.
From the description of your rifle, the non free floated barrel is likely to be a bigger issue at 400 yards than ammo choice.
I may free float it later, but wanted to see how I can do with something that has had no work at all. How well does your RR shoot with those loads? Is it a sub MOA rifle?
My rifle is iron sighted, with my poor discipline, it does not shoot sub MOA.
But at 100 yard CMP reduced 200, 300, and 600 matches I often shoot 430-450 of 500.
Those targets are less generously sized than appleseed targets.
The ammunition is handloaded with Winchester primers, RP brass, RL-15 powder, and 75-77 grain bullets.
Die is adjusted so the brass when sized is .001-.003" shorter than brass fired in that chamber.
The weak link is me.
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 19, 2018, 01:14:29 AM
My rifle is iron sighted, with my poor discipline, it does not shoot sub MOA.
But at 100 yard CMP reduced 200, 300, and 600 matches I often shoot 430-450 of 500.
Those targets are less generously sized than appleseed targets.
The ammunition is handloaded with Winchester primers, RP brass, RL-15 powder, and 75-77 grain bullets.
Die is adjusted so the brass when sized is .001-.003" shorter than brass fired in that chamber.
The weak link is me.
Gotcha. I am familiar with those CMP targets. I shot my M1A for the first time in an August Service Rifle Match using iron sights with my handloads and managed a 405. Lots of fun and similar to Appleseed, but the sling-less standing stage threw me a bit. My ability to see the iron sights has really degraded over the past five years which is why I opted for the scope on my AR15.
Quote from: pennys dad on October 18, 2018, 11:56:40 PM
I have shot rifleman with ar-15 several times. With a 20" A2 and 16" M4 (style). I tried 55grn, 62grn, 69grn, 75grn. Windy conditions blow 55grn at 400 yards but the your can still hit the sore. All the dropped 13 moa at 300 yards. I used Wolf gold, green tip and military 69 grn surplus. You can shoot the score with surplus and off the shelf.
Good feedback. I guess I will lean more toward the heavier bullets as I expect it to be windy. It always is so why not that weekend. :)
I shot my Rifleman with a Palmetto State Armory with 18" FN 1/7 heavy barrel and Nikon 1.5-4. I will be shooting another match in May. I have been thinking about switching to my Colt AR15A4 myself.
Quote from: HammBone on October 19, 2018, 10:49:08 AM
Good feedback. I guess I will lean more toward the heavier bullets as I expect it to be windy. It always is so why not that weekend. :)
The IMI Razor Core 77 grain SMK's are about the best deal out there for 5.56 precision LR ammo if you are going to go shopping. SG Ammo is an extremely trusted source I and my friends have used many times.
https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/500-round-case-556mm-77-grain-smk-otm-lr-mod-1-razorcore-imi-ammo-made-israe-0 (https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/500-round-case-556mm-77-grain-smk-otm-lr-mod-1-razorcore-imi-ammo-made-israe-0)
Occasionally Midway USA will put the IMI Razor Core 77 SMKs on sale for 50 cents a round. I snagged some last August thanks to another instructor letting me know.
I have only shot at one Appleseed KD but I did qualify using a PSA AR with an 18" barrel (1:7 twist) with a 223 Wylde chamber and a free-floated hand guard. I used a Nikon P-Tactical 223 4-12x40 scope.
The ammunition I used was not all that fancy. Just commercial Hornady Frontier .223 55 grain hollow point match, which is made at Lake City using Hornady projectiles.
If you are anything like me, I think that you could use just about anything at the 100 yard and probably the 200 yard stages as your technique will probably be a bigger limitation than your ammunition. You might want something else for 300 yards and out.
I personally would not recommend using the ballistic drop gradations on your scope unless you have vetted their accuracy thoroughly using all the ammunition you plan to use at every given range. I would plan to dope the scope for each different range so using different ammunition is not a big deal.
While is is true that some fast twist 1:7 barrels will not shoot the shorter 55 grain projectiles as well as heavier ones, this is not universally true. I know a couple of owners of ARs with fast twist barrels that can shoot 55 grain FMJ very accurately. But if you want to try some heavier projectiles, I would probably first try IMI Razor Core loaded with either 69 grain or 77 grain Sierra Match King projectiles.
XM193 worked just fine for me to shoot Rifleman (223) at my first KD.
While I would never tell anyone not to shoot quality ammo, you really don't need it. KD is not very far and the targets are pretty darn big.
400 yards, 19-20 in targets. 5 MOA black. That's big.
FWIW, we were "issued" Wolf steel cased ammo at the Camp Atterbury KD shoot that the old Indiana cadre sponsored. I shot RM 3 our of 4 times with an iron sighted WOA upper, 20" bbl, 1-8 twist on a RR lower...and I'm not a very good shot.
55 gr will do ya just fine. We're not shooting precision rifle here.
Some thoughts:
Quote from: LomshekThe IMI Razor Core 77 grain SMK's are about the best deal out there for 5.56 precision LR ammo if you are going to go shopping. SG Ammo is an extremely trusted source I and my friends have used many times.
Couldn't agree with this more. For my rifle configuration, they work better than IMI 69 gr OTM (but not by much). If price is a factor, I would lean towards the 69 gr.
Recently, Pelon did a quick video on a method to determine what ammo your rifle likes best.
Best done at 100 yards, but can be done at 25. This methodology proved effective during three recent KD events.
Link here. (https://youtu.be/4gQLgsypPxc)
Edit: fixed link.
I'll second that. I used Wolf Gold 55gr and had no problems scoring a 233 at a KD last fall. We did a fun shoot at 500 and 600 and it did great at 500, and did open up a some at 600 but was that the ammo or the shooter? :-\ It was mt first time ever shooting over 200 yards before.
Quote from: SteelThunder on March 26, 2019, 04:53:34 PM
While I would never tell anyone not to shoot quality ammo, you really don't need it. KD is not very far and the targets are pretty darn big.
400 yards, 19-20 in targets. 5 MOA black. That's big.
FWIW, we were "issued" Wolf steel cased ammo at the Camp Atterbury KD shoot that the old Indiana cadre sponsored. I shot RM 3 our of 4 times with an iron sighted WOA upper, 20" bbl, 1-8 twist on a RR lower...and I'm not a very good shot.
55 gr will do ya just fine. We're not shooting precision rifle here.
I've used nothing but Federal Lake City XM193 in my two 20" rifles, and have consistently shot Rifleman scores with both, including several other shooters.
And when we went out to 600 yards, this was the result...
(https://i.imgur.com/Clm3DRx.jpg)
as others have said XM193 5.56 works fine is there better , there maybe for your rifle but it is easy available and loaded the same repeatedly.
I do like my hand loads , in test groups at 400 I can do half the group size with my hand loaded 55gr bulk hornady spire points as I can the XM193 but that is a 1moa vs 2mao difference.
the reason 600 yards is inconsistent with the 55gr bullets is a 55gr bullet muzzle velocity 3200 fps is just barley super sonic at 600 1247fps approximately depending on air density.
XM193 specs 3165fps MV but this is taken from a test barrel typically 20 or 24 inches , a 20 , 18 , or especially 16 inch barrel that is so common gives up something for velocity a reasonable expectation is that a 16 inch barrel in 5.56/223 will produce approximately 2850-2950 fps depending on conditions of course 5.56/223 froma 16 inch barrel will fall sub sonic between 500 and 600 yards leading to much larger groups at 600 particularly from the shorter barrel rifles.
wind also has a greater effect as the bullet slows even if you are running a longer barrel. this is why your 600 yard competitors are using heavier bullets in 5.56 the higher ballistic coefficient carries the bullet to the target with greater retained velocity and less wind effect.
however RM qualification only needs 400 yard shooting and the XM193 is a very cost effective way to go at that distance
starting speed is important for long range shooting but so is ballistic coefficient .
400 is more medium range shooting and very doable with many ammunition
find what your rifle likes and have plenty off it so you aren't switching mid day to a different ammo
My uppers both shoot best with 69 and 77 grain OTM, but they shoot enough better with M855 62 grain than the m193 that I go with 62 more often than not and stopped buying most 55grain stuff. Everyone else hates the M855 but I prefer it over the M193. Not precision stuff but better.
Quote from: The Wolfhound on March 29, 2019, 12:02:53 AM
...they shoot enough better with M855 62 grain than the m193 that I go with 62 more often than not and stopped buying most 55grain stuff.
See? This is the stuff that keeps me fascinated with firearms. There's almost always an exception to the rule. I wonder if the longer M855 bullets engage the rifling better/differently than the shorter M193 bullets in your particular chamber. Thanks, Wolfhound. It's always nice to hear reports of stuff that's off the bell curve.
Quote from: The Wolfhound on March 29, 2019, 12:02:53 AM
My uppers both shoot best with 69 and 77 grain OTM, but they shoot enough better with M855 62 grain than the m193 that I go with 62 more often than not and stopped buying most 55grain stuff. Everyone else hates the M855 but I prefer it over the M193. Not precision stuff but better.
As we have nearly the same setup, I've found that my setup HATES (with a captital HATES) Wolf Gold 223 - 6 MOA at 100 yards. Changed over to some older 5.56 M193 from CBC (Magtech), and the groups came down to a shade under 2".
At the end of the day, it's worthwhile to collect as much data as you can on your rifle configuration - the better your DOPE, the better informed your next shot may be (if you use the DOPE).
I like what Trapper Pete had to say up above: "Fast twist barrels don't have to shoot light bullets poorly."
I have an AR, 20" barrel that is set up for Service Rifle. It was put together by Compass Lake and has a 1-7 twist barrel. It dearly loves good old fashioned 55 gr FMJ boattails at 2800 fps. With its open sights, and my 57 year old eyes I'm holding 1.5 - 2 inch groups for ten shots at 100 yards. It is a beginning load with Varget, 22.8 grains. I call them my paper killer loads. They go bang, cycle the action and make me feel all warm inside. Brass lasts a long time. At 2800 fps I figure they're good for shooting out to 200 yards. Farther on a calm day.
For the longer ranges I switch over to Hornady 68 grain boattail bullets. Again, I don't firewall my loads. Not looking for top velocity, just top accuracy with enough velocity.
I have been served well by XM193 in my 18" 1-8 twist set up. If they don't work in your rifle I have seen good results from the IMI 77 gr. by others.
As said above 400 isn't that far and the targets are huge.
The starting price of the IMI is high enough that it may not have been affected by the craziness but 193 and 855 have jumped from under .30 a month or so ago to .40-.60 cents a round and sometimes much higher by people that can't stop hitting the bid button. It is not the best time to be buying 193 and 855. I have seen some 62 gr bthp for about the same money or less than 193 recently.
Chuck
Hey HammBone,
I have a similar setup with a 20" barrel on a CMP service rifle setup. Just thought I'd throw out a mention for PPU (Prvi Partizan) Match 223 Remington. It's a 69 grain HPBT round. It wouldn't be my first choice for full distance NRA/CMP high power comp. (2 MOA at 600 yds), but it's perfect trying to shoot 48-50 out of 50 on Appleseed targets out to 400 yds (~4.5 MOA). If your goal is to qual KD Rifleman (40 out of 50), match ammo is definitely overkill and most 55 grain ammo should get you there (although wolf 55g, my rifle and myself are not 4 MOA shooters). And even better on the PPU, I can normally get it for nearly 40 cents a round shipped vs 70+ cents a round for 77 grain match ammo that is great for NRA/CMP service rifle.
Good luck!