Greetings and salutations!
I had a question for any inquiring minds. for those using the 50/200 at 10 zero method with verification at 50 yards, how have people been mitigating any issues when using the "Reduced for 25 meter qualification" targets? I am hoping to be ahead of the curve should that particular issue arrive.
I'll assume you are talking about an AR15 rifle in .223/5.56 here, but a bit more info on the rifle and sighting system would help.
A 50/200 zero should be about 2MOA low from a 25/300 zero for typical ball ammo. Roughly. Will also vary slightly if you use center or 6:00 hold.
I would recommend zeroing at 25yd and just keep a record of the elevation change to go back to 50/200 later. The sights are adjustable for a reason. You will find it easier to focus on the instruction and learning if you aren't also trying to play some sort of Kentucky windage game. Besides, a 25/300 yd zero also works great.
Quote from: Caliper on August 29, 2018, 03:01:13 PM
I'll assume you are talking about an AR15 rifle in .223/5.56 here, but a bit more info on the rifle and sighting system would help.
A 50/200 zero should be about 2MOA low from a 25/300 zero for typical ball ammo. Roughly. Will also vary slightly if you use center or 6:00 hold.
I would recommend zeroing at 25yd and just keep a record of the elevation change to go back to 50/200 later. The sights are adjustable for a reason. You will find it easier to focus on the instruction and learning if you aren't also trying to play some sort of Kentucky windage game. Besides, a 25/300 yd zero also works great.
You are correct in your presumption of 5.56/.223 . I do need to make a caveat that the 5.56/.223 shooters are using 55gr and 62gr (surprisingly similar impact points...not the same just similar. I have had three shooters train with me that use 50/200 for 7.62x51/.308 using 147gr and 168gr. those shooters run the 50/200 at 20 and then , as they should verify at 50 and then 200. Interesting results.
I have been seeing that sighting protocol being used with people that I have been training. What I have been hearing back from other instructors (not Appleseed) is that many are advising the "Chest,Head,Hat" methodology to compensate. It seems to me that with 50/200 your point of aim should not really have to change much with the exception of targets at approx 400y where if you do not shift point of aim your 400y hits will be at approx hip level. At that point if you shift point of aim to head level from chest your hits should be well in the chest area. This of course quick and dirty.
All that being said, I am looking for a quick description for neophite shooters who don't have a firm grasp on hold over. I have been out of the Appleseed game for some time now and wanted to see if there was any "newer" info . I absolutely appreciate your info and response. in my opinion a good instructor always looks to evolve and learn. I was a sight in at 25y for well over 30 years and have recently moved to the 50/200 at 10 method simply due to quicker holdover/under on the fly.
Because you'd asked about 25yd targets, I had assumed you were only talking 25yd shooting, not KD...
I'd still adjust sights for 25yd. Yes, we can hold off at 25 to compensate, but that is detrimental to the purpose of reduced range instruction. You want to get your best groups, especially on stage 4. This is especially important for a newb shooter. One thing at a time. Get them proficient at 25 yd and the fundamentals and then later bring in more advanced concepts when they start to learn trajectory.
JBM ballistics says that 55gr with a 200yd zero should be 20" low at 400. The D target is about 18" or so tall, so you'll be holding in space to get center hits. Definitely a disaster with iron sights. Might work on a scope, depending on your skill. 300yd shows 6" drop so go head. 200 and closer, just aim center. That's taking a 3250fps MV with 55gr FMJBT. If you're using something like Wolf with a lower MV, maybe in a 16" barrel, the picture gets worse. I would probably say to hold over at 300 and then dial 5MOA at 400.
Sorry, I digressed. You are very correct. I was just wondering about that sight in method and use of the targets. it seems to me the using the 200y target are your 100y etc would be a hold over. Does that make sense? I apologize for my digression of subject...I have been hit in the head alot
I have 2 zeros with my 223 I am running a Hornady 55gr soft point on my reloads I know they don't line up with XM193 but they are close and I have the american eagle XM193 numbers also if I need to use factory ammo. this is also a 20 inch barrel
BSZ = zero on my turret this is a 25 yard/meter zero
and I have a
HSZ hunting sight zero this is a -4moa adjustment from battle sight zero and leaves my optic sitting on 11
the HSZ is a 50 and 225 yard zero confirmed at both distances
unless I am at an Appleseed I am on HSZ
my HSZ numbers are
25yds = -1.1
50yds = 0
75yds = +0.9
100yds = +1.5
125yds= +1.9
150yds= +1.9
175yds= +1.6
200yds= +1
225yds= 0
250yds= -1.4
I didn't measure all of these I used a ballistic calculator with my sight height , velocity , BC , bullet weight to calculate and confirm on target that I was lining up with the calculated numbers at as many distances as I could.
we have club service rifle sort of an unofficial mini seeds once a month we run them like a rimfire KD 25, 50 , 75 and 100 yards using the Appleseed targets
on a 100 yard reduced AQT at 25 I hold on the 5 at 50 the V at 75 the V and at 100 the V
on full length KD I use the BSZ there my numbers are
25yds cutting bullet holes I just aim for the blank paper target then aim for my bullet hole and make sure I am within a bullet distance of the original hole , a half inch on a 25 yard zero is a lot at 300 yards if your not running optics sight in on a 1 inch square so that if you are using a 6 o'clock hold your cutting the bottom 1/4 of the square I watched a bunch of people sighting in so that they were in the middle of the one inch square with a 6 o'clock hold like they would for a 25 meter AS and this can put you over the target at 200 yards because that might have you 3 minutes high and with a little error on top of that you might be 5 minutes high placing you right over the top of the bell even with a 6 o'clock hold.
25yds = 0
100yds = +6 inches
200yds= +9.75
300yds= +6
400yds= -3
at 500 yards I need to come up 4.75 minutes from my 25yds zero
AE XM193
100yds = +6
200yds = +10
300yds = +7.5
400yds = -2.75
if you can sight in at 25 then verify at 100 you should be good enough
the center of the V on a full size KD AQT is 6 inches up from the bottom edge
running a 6 oclock hold on everything till stage 4 then hold on the 5 / COM / where the bell curves in.
one of the things that makes the 25meter zero so useful is that the curve just works
my 50/225 yard zero with my reloads , arguably would mostlikely be a 50/250 zero with the slightly faster XM193 factory ammo is that using the 50/225 my calculations and these are unconfirmed but since all my confirmed numbers out to 500 jive for 25m zero I expect this is very close
50yds = 0
100yds = +1.5
200yds = +1
225yds= 0
0-225 are confirmed data
300yds calculates to -5.5
400 yards calculates to -20.3 inches
10 inches high and 3 inches low seems a lot easier to deal with on an 18 inch tall target then right on and 20 inches low using the 50/250
but the 50/250 is great for the ranges most people shoot and where a lot of people would leave their rifle a shot past 275 on a coyote or something like that really is unusual because you would have to know very specifically how far it was because your target isn't very tall being off by 50 yards could mean a miss .
but for Appleseed purposes raising that front sight 3-4 moa and confirming at 100 that you are very close to 6 inches high makes a lot of difference an full distance AQT
most ranges have 100 yards a lot less go out any further , and 100 yards if you know a few things about your round and rifle is a really good place to confirm your zero it is far enough that if your holding a good groups you can be confident you have a good confirmation , it is also close enough that you can still see the target well with optic of even low magnification or irons
changing the arc all your rounds hit in about a 13 inch range on a 25m zero but using a 50/250 your rounds hit in a about a 22 inch range from 0-400
and the reason I keep it written down in my book for my scope
Quote from: glocker21 on August 29, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
Sorry, I digressed. You are very correct. I was just wondering about that sight in method and use of the targets. it seems to me the using the 200y target are your 100y etc would be a hold over. Does that make sense? I apologize for my digression of subject...I have been hit in the head alot
Your typos & short hand above are making it difficult to know what you mean by "using the 200 yard target". (Not trying to be a spelling/grammar nazi, just saying.)
If you're talking about A2 iron sights at 25 yards when you have a 50/200 RBZ/IBZ (that's how I do it) I just dial the elevation drum up a couple clicks and I'm dead on at 25 yards. Shooters can adjust a click or 3 as needed for a center hold or 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/RIBZ_____Revised_Improved_Battlesight_Zero__now_with_down_loadable_50_yard_zeroing_target_/18-328143/ (https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/RIBZ_____Revised_Improved_Battlesight_Zero__now_with_down_loadable_50_yard_zeroing_target_/18-328143/)
For a full distance shoot either one will work to 300 yards easily. It just comes down to whether you want the least amount of POI variation up close (50/200 zero) or less adjustment at 300 and 400 yards.
Scopes are much easier. For a 25 yard Appleseed regardless of zero distance I'll encourage shooters to dial the scope for a dead center hold at 25 yards. That allows the shooter to focus on learning how to shoot accurately without the additional distraction of holding over. I use the same 50/200 zero with my optics. None of mine use distance specific BDC's so I can set it for whatever I want and note the distances the stadia work at and learn the holds.
If someone's more experienced and just wants to do the hold over when shooting a 25 yard AQT that's fine but if they're struggling they re-zero.
Ultimately the 25 yard AQT only mimics full distance for training. Zero for it and reset zero for full distance at the end if you're not using a 25 yard zero.
Hope that makes sense.
Quote from: Lomshek on September 24, 2018, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: glocker21 on August 29, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
Sorry, I digressed. You are very correct. I was just wondering about that sight in method and use of the targets. it seems to me the using the 200y target are your 100y etc would be a hold over. Does that make sense? I apologize for my digression of subject...I have been hit in the head alot
Your typos & short hand above are making it difficult to know what you mean by "using the 200 yard target". (Not trying to be a spelling/grammar nazi, just saying.)
If you're talking about A2 iron sights at 25 yards when you have a 50/200 RBZ/IBZ (that's how I do it) I just dial the elevation drum up a couple clicks and I'm dead on at 25 yards. Shooters can adjust a click or 3 as needed for a center hold or 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/RIBZ_____Revised_Improved_Battlesight_Zero__now_with_down_loadable_50_yard_zeroing_target_/18-328143/ (https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/RIBZ_____Revised_Improved_Battlesight_Zero__now_with_down_loadable_50_yard_zeroing_target_/18-328143/)
For a full distance shoot either one will work to 300 yards easily. It just comes down to whether you want the least amount of POI variation up close (50/200 zero) or less adjustment at 300 and 400 yards.
Scopes are much easier. For a 25 yard Appleseed regardless of zero distance I'll encourage shooters to dial the scope for a dead center hold at 25 yards. That allows the shooter to focus on learning how to shoot accurately without the additional distraction of holding over. I use the same 50/200 zero with my optics. None of mine use distance specific BDC's so I can set it for whatever I want and note the distances the stadia work at and learn the holds.
If someone's more experienced and just wants to do the hold over when shooting a 25 yard AQT that's fine but if they're struggling they re-zero.
Ultimately the 25 yard AQT only mimics full distance for training. Zero for it and reset zero for full distance at the end if you're not using a 25 yard zero.
Hope that makes sense.
I totally understand that. What I was trying to determine if this had been an issue in training at Appleseed events. as per my initial post
"Greetings and salutations!
I had a question for any inquiring minds. for those using the 50/200 at 10 zero method with verification at 50 yards, how have people been mitigating any issues when using the "Reduced for 25 meter qualification" targets? I am hoping to be ahead of the curve should that particular issue arrive."
I appreciate everyone's input but I think that the original question may have led people to an over analyzation. I use the 6" holdover method. I was just asking if anyone had a preferred method for teaching.
The "Sorry, I digressed. You are very correct. I was just wondering about that sight in method and use of the targets. it seems to me the using the 200y target are your 100y etc would be a hold over. Does that make sense? I apologize for my digression of subject...I have been hit in the head alot" post was in response to Trapper Pete' wonderful information. Admittedly the 100y and 200y target comment was bade upon KD and may have been misleading or at the very least misinterpreted.
Again, the initial post was in regards to reduced for 25 meter targets.
All that being said. answers have been given and absolutely appreciated and in an effort to not belabor the original question it should be put to bed so to speak.
Am I missing something here or should we not be expecting folk to dial their sights to hit the center of the squares targets when we are teaching zeroing? If they have a 5-200 zero and do not adjust, (they are idiots but not my circus) they have to figure out the hold over/under. They can record their clicks when adjusting and go right back after the Appleseed or on their way to KD. Shooters should be encouraged to adjust their sighting systems. They are not set in stone (except those damnable Ruger stock sights >:D >:D >:D).
I agree that we need to adjust. It all come with a t achable attitude. That said I have found that sometimes people lock into "I learned it in the internet " attitude.
Again, my original post was simply a ponderment and question. It has been put to bed