I'll omit names in order to protect the innocent.
Is the pendulum swinging on the sacred cow of cleaning weapons? In the recent past two very competent shooters have said to me that weapons should not be cleaned until they show a degradation of accuracy (not a patch, not a brush, not a snake, nothing). I'm not talking of "Joe-Sh__ -the-rag-man". I'm talking about shooters whose targets show that, if they practice what they preach, they may be up to something. Comments, please.
aj
Depending on usage, I run a bore snake through maybe once or twice a year... at the most. It is a very old bore snake and the bristles are mostly folded over. I spray the snake with clp then run it through 3 times. They consistently shoot expert or above in the right hands.
Cleaning is a dark art, and many people swear by their own particular beliefs. The funny thing is that those usually change dramatically over time!
No matter what, I think it depends on the caliber and how many rounds you're shooting, and whether you're plinking, precision target shooting, or hunting. If it's a .22LR, it also depends on how dirty the ammo is. Your never-cleaned bore might be perfectly accurate, but if the bolt is too gunked up to operate and you start having reliability problems, you'd better clean it, especially if your life might depend on it.
It's trendy in some circles to not clean until you start having accuracy or reliability problems, and I tried that for a while. The problem is that it turns cleaning into a longer, dirtier process, and I like clean-ish semiautos. YMMV.
Personally, I run a bore snake with CLP though after every use. "Dirt" isn't the real enemy of accuracy; powder residue will shoot out. Metal (copper/lead) buildup on the lands creates disproportional drag in the rifling, and can impact accuracy. I watch for buildup in the bore and MAYBE end up doing a deep clean annually. That's when I'll do a scrub with some copper/lead eliminator. (In my experience - Those new copper reducing powders actually do work as advertised)
I'll generally spend more time ensuring that the action is smooth and functional. Bolt actions get a wipedown and some oil on the rails. Semi-auto actions get a little more love. I'll usually take the BCG out of the AR and wipe it down, but not much beyond that. On the other hand, the 10/22s get filthy fast. I'll do a full breakdown and clean of the 10/22 action after each day of an AS.
Benchrest shooters and ISSF competitors have the highest standards for accuracy and precision of any rimfire shooter, typically less than 1/4" at 50 yards (or meters). Both of these groups keep their barrels clean to "as-new" condition and "season" the barrel with a few fouling shots to lay down a layer of lube that makes subsequent shots consistent. To them, accuracy "falls off" within 100 shots.
Most of us have a much lower standard of accuracy, but I still notice degradation within 500 shots after a thorough cleaning.
Thanks guys. I now realize I didn't ask the right question. So, is this thread logic applies to a "vanilla" hunting centerfire bolt action rifle? Say, for example: a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 or a Remington 700 in .270 or even a boltie in .223. IMHO rimfires live in a different world and maybe different rules applies to them.
Does the "if it's good for the goose is good for the gander" thinking applies? I don't have a clue, I do know that I would happily shoot more and clean less if I thought It would work. That is what motivated me to ask. I suspect that this is like dress fashions, they come into vogue every so often. The circular path theory.
aj
I agree with Maxwell. It's a dark art, and everyone has their own methodology. Probably because at the end of the day, every rifle is it's own special unicorn. My PRS 6.5 Creedmoor will print cloverleafs @ 100 with my pet load. When that starts to open up, it gets a scrub (I do run a snake though it every time to get the gunk out). My match M14 shoots 1.5 MOA, and always has. It's never had a full copper-removing scrub, just the snake after every use.
Bottom line, "conventional wisdom" isn't.... Experience is king, go with what works for you.
Quote from: airplanejoe on August 08, 2018, 09:08:56 AM
Thanks guys. I now realize I didn't ask the right question. So, is this thread logic applies to a "vanilla" hunting centerfire bolt action rifle? Say, for example: a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 or a Remington 700 in .270 or even a boltie in .223. IMHO rimfires live in a different world and maybe different rules applies to them.
PAGING ELMER FUDD.
MR. FUDD TO THE FORUM, PLEASE.
I don't hunt, but my impression is that hunters go through maybe 40-100 rounds a year. That's about what I shoot through my Enfields and K31, so they get cleaned once a year at most. I'm not saying that's right or good, but it's lazy enough for me. For Service Rifle, I clean the AR after every match or after 50+ rounds of practice (patch through the bore, brush chamber, check bolt carrier), then use JB on the throat and strip the BCG every 300 or so. The 10/22s get cleaned as needed to avoid malfunctions, or after a weekend of loaner duty.
most hunters that I know 40 is a lot of rounds for a year 6-10 is more realistic after a person has it sighted in yes I know sort of pathetic but it plays into why there are so many answers to what should be a fairly simple question.
for Rifle cleaning of center fire cartridges in excess of 2000 fps
what is cleaning ? cleaning also is a lot of things to a lot of different people. I think of cleaning basically as 3 types peoples exact methods will vary.
A. fully clean to the barrel metal then oil/ preservative - copper and carbon solvent cleans to bare metal.
B. clearing the carbon then oil/preservative - a solvent that gets the carbon , then a oil /preservative patch.
C.getting basic dirt and getting an oil / preservative on the barrel for storage - basically a bore snake and a few drops of CLP.
I think a very true statement is once a barrel is broken in , you may call it something else , most center fire rifles should be cleaned every 100-300 rounds. they may not "need" it till 500 or more.
closer to 100 rounds if you are 3300 fps or faster.
if you are an extreme accuracy shooter bench rest or F-class you may clean more than every 100 rounds.
by clean I mean a full type A copper and carbon.
Ideally a type c cleaning just getting loose carbon and getting a preservative on the barrel and chamber when you are putting the rifle away for months to a year.
it is my opinion every rifle should get out of the safe for a wipe down and a bore snake with a bit more oil/preservative is a good idea unless you did something to preserve it for longer before putting it away this is likely over kill but if you intend to do every year hopefully every other will happen.
if it got wet , went in and out of warm cold and such as things often do when hunting a type B cleaning is in order although a few extra pulls and drops of preservative with the bore snake is probably nearly as good , make sure it gets fully dry and warm then oiled/preserved before putting away.
more barrels are neglected to death than shot out , have heard that from several gun smiths , very few people ever shoot out a barrel.
at the bottom end of the velocity spectrum for a center fire rifle is 30-30win I was talking with a smith who also shot silhouettes with a 30-30 he figured he was over 10K rounds and saw no decrees in accuracy
at the high end the over 3300 fps folks might burn up a barrel in under 2000 rounds
the thing is at say 50-60 rounds with your new hunting rifle , then even 20 more a year say you did a full cleaning Type A at 20 and 60 rounds then again at 240 you wouldn't do a type A cleaning for another 12 years after your first year and a lot of hunters are even fewer than 20 rounds a year , more 6-10 that would mean 24 to 30 years later the hunter is ready for a full cleaning.
also remember not that long ago a lot of ammo was corrosive if you shot corrosive ammo you had to go home and do a type B cleaning to flush the corrosive salts out of the barrel or it would get ugly , black sewer pipe with rust and pitting.
so anyone who grew up shooting corrosive ammo you cleaned after every outing every hunting trip.
so a lot of people are right under a number of different contexts.
as an example I cleaned my current project rifle a 308win before round 1 and copper and carbon at 26 rounds my (first day of shooting with it)and again at 273 I hadn't noticed any loss in accuracy but I did get blue patches when I cleaned meaning I was definitely removing copper but it also cleaned up easily after a soak and a few blue patches , a few more wet patches with a combination copper and carbon solvent they started getting less and less grey till they were very light grey in about 10-12 patches. If I can get a good cleaning in a 20 minute soak and 10-15 minutes of patches I will keep cleaning every 250 or so rounds or so.
I should probably add this is my 28th year of Wisconsin deer hunting I shoot more practice than just about every one I know and still don't often shoot more than about 20 rounds unless I have a new or different gun for the year. my primary deer gun since I bough it when I was 14 I fire probably 10-15 rounds now most years the scope just hasn't moved ever I clean it with carbon solvent and a good wipe down at the end of the season or when it gets rained or snowed on.
Cleaning a hunting rifle is even more important. Shooting during season prep and actual hunting season deposits hydrophilic soot in the barrel and scrubs out any rust preventative you may have applied at the end of last season. Also, one by-product of powder combustion is water. If that's trapped in the bore it will cause pitting. I give the centerfire rifles the same thorough cleaning when I put them away, including a patch wetted with Hornady One-Shot or Froglube as a rust preventer.
If you don't have a dehumidified safe or cabinet, you should put a thin coat of rust preventative on exterior metal parts. There are several rifles and shotguns on my shop's wall racks that have rusted during the past year due to improper air conditioning in my corner of the big-box store.