I have been practicing my marksmanship pretty steadily for a few months now and, because nothing truly good is cheap or easy to get, I have been struggling quite a bit so far.
Every journey has hills and valleys. "Progress" is not always apparent to the traveler but, just when you think you aren't getting anywhere, you catch a glimpse of the goal and it lifts you up just when you need it.
For the last 2+ weeks I've been now running the AQT once a week by myself as well as with friends using a timer and AS guidelines for the course of fire. Boy, I've gotta say that between the heat and the time factor, it is really separating the experts from the noobs (me).
Having said that, I made a change in glasses today and had what some would call an "aha..." moment while sitting and prone. We did a few rounds of the AQT and my Stage 2, 3 & 4 best scores using strict time limits for each were 40, 40, & 41. Now, I know this probably doesn't seem like great shakes to any of you but for me (using a bolty & iron sights) this was like turning a corner. I fully understand that this "progress" is not linear and that my scores will not always be like these or better BUT... this rifleman's yoga (sitting and prone) has been mercilessly kicking my arse and today I really glimpsed my goal and felt some true potential in me.
Anyway, just needed to share this with some folks that understand and live the journey (wifey doesn't relate and falls asleep half way through my horribly long-winded and epic "Saga of the Stages" lol)
Hi Fynn,
The more I practice the luckier I get.Your truly on your way.
Ken :F
Hi Fynn,
I respectably disagree about scores. Once you put everything togeather and it starts to make sense, the muscle memory for NPOA, and the manual of arms for your rifle for mag changes and the flow of the AQT it DOES get easier.
Your scores are very close to what you need to score 210+
Now where is that off hand score? &)
Your persistence will pay off.
Chuck
What position are you using for Stage 2?
Experiment - a lot of bolt-action shooters seem to prefer stacked ankle, which is "not the most stable". Stretch! The deeper you can relax into stacked ankle, the more stable you'll be.
Once you get into the low 40s on transition stages you can start looking at the AQT a little bit more tactically.
My approach is generally this: Stage 4 is what makes or breaks the test, so pound it until you're comfortable. Then work on Stage 1, because with an accurate rifle and a lot of time you should be able to maximize this more easily than stages with time pressure, where manually cycling the action creates additional challenge.
Don't be afraid to go to the range and just shoot groups from prone, or to just shoot Stage 4, or to work on seated transitions, etc. Work one skill at a time. Better to pound one thing for 30 minutes than to spread your attention for an hour. Especially Stage 1, because you can very easily pick your rifle up and bang out a run or two of dryfire during the week at night. Do that every night for a couple of weeks really focusing on form and you'll be on your way.
A lot of shooting is body awareness, so yeah man, don't be afraid to do you some yoga, or play minor attention games with yourself (brushing your teeth with your non-dominant hand is a fun one).
What ammunition are you using?
Quote from: Charles McKinley on May 13, 2018, 04:05:09 PM
Hi Fynn,
I respectably disagree about scores. Once you put everything togeather and it starts to make sense, the muscle memory for NPOA, and the manual of arms for your rifle for mag changes and the flow of the AQT it DOES get easier.
Your scores are very close to what you need to score 210+
Now where is that off hand score? &)
Your persistence will pay off.
Chuck
Thanks for your reply. I am still waiting for everything to just "come together" but it is early and I will definitely persist. Off hand is a good example of my hills and valleys, unfortunately the more I "think" about shooting, the more ups and downs I have from session to session. Good news is that my mag changes are fast(ish) and smooth(ish) and my buddy tells me I'm running the bolt like a boss. NPOA is getting there but if my sling tension isn't perfect, the butt moves around during cycling or mag change and changes POA. So many things to get right, that's why this is so cool :)
@Kennebago:
I sit crossed legged with no problem, VERY comfortable while shooting, in fact, when we shot the red coat I chose sitting since it is where I am most comfortable.
Thanks for mentioning focused range time and dry fire. I get very little range time considering how obsessed I am with shooting (lol) and sometimes try to "do it all" when I get to the range. It does make more sense to focus on one or two things each time out but I feel like I need to work on everything at once. Dry fire is also on my list and I do that when I can but will try to do it more regularly - I needed to be reminded of this for sure.
I stretch and Hatha yoga has always been a go-to for me when I need to limber up. Even so, I have some health issues that make me stiff and sore after activities, not to complain but prone is especially tiring (I notice it after I get up or take a break).
CCI standard velocity, Aguila, and Geco are what I shoot for now. The 452 loves Federal Automatch but it simply is not reliable (and yes I've seen the videos of them scooping it off the floor with shovels lol) and just isn't worth the risk of ruining an otherwise great stage with duds or misfeeds.
Thanks again for the comments!
It is great to hear about your journey. Keep it up.
Fred says "A Rifleman persists".
Be like a turtle - always move forwards - never backwards.
Continue your fine journey my friend.
Quote from: Fynn on May 13, 2018, 07:58:59 PM
@Kennebago:
I sit crossed legged with no problem, VERY comfortable while shooting, in fact, when we shot the red coat I chose sitting since it is where I am most comfortable.
Thanks for mentioning focused range time and dry fire. I get very little range time considering how obsessed I am with shooting (lol) and sometimes try to "do it all" when I get to the range. It does make more sense to focus on one or two things each time out but I feel like I need to work on everything at once. Dry fire is also on my list and I do that when I can but will try to do it more regularly - I needed to be reminded of this for sure.
I stretch and Hatha yoga has always been a go-to for me when I need to limber up. Even so, I have some health issues that make me stiff and sore after activities, not to complain but prone is especially tiring (I notice it after I get up or take a break).
CCI standard velocity, Aguila, and Geco are what I shoot for now. The 452 loves Federal Automatch but it simply is not reliable (and yes I've seen the videos of them scooping it off the floor with shovels lol) and just isn't worth the risk of ruining an otherwise great stage with duds or misfeeds.
Thanks again for the comments!
I would find one load you like and stack that, since changing between loads can impact POI. CCI SV for me, but go with what you prefer and can find a lot of.
I get very little range time as well - understand the urge to go do as many things as possible!
If prone is physically challenging, you may want to actually work in reverse and prioritize transitions (i.e. practice acquiring NPOA at speed). If you can shoot good groups in Stage 3 while making time, there's no reason you can't keep them all in the black on Stage 4 with a "get in, get out" mentality.
Math can be made to work. If you shoot 45s on Stages 1-3 you don't even have to crack 40 on Stage 4 to make Rifleman.
Quote from: Kennebago on May 14, 2018, 01:01:39 PM
I would find one load you like and stack that, since changing between loads can impact POI. CCI SV for me, but go with what you prefer and can find a lot of.
I get very little range time as well - understand the urge to go do as many things as possible!
If prone is physically challenging, you may want to actually work in reverse and prioritize transitions (i.e. practice acquiring NPOA at speed). If you can shoot good groups in Stage 3 while making time, there's no reason you can't keep them all in the black on Stage 4 with a "get in, get out" mentality.
Math can be made to work. If you shoot 45s on Stages 1-3 you don't even have to crack 40 on Stage 4 to make Rifleman.
Yes, Geco performs well and is what I have started to load up on. As far as prone goes, I just haven't found that magic spot where I can slump into the sling, find NPOA, then shift that over slightly to the right for each of the stage 3 & 4 targets. At first I thought that I could muscle it over for each target on stage 4 since the targets seem so extremely close together at that distance but of course muscling only brings "grief and sorrow" lol.
It is interesting that you mention the "get in, get out" mentality. This actually ran through my mind at one point last Saturday at the moment I was noticing how fatigued I was becoming after several prone stages. I'll get there, thanks for the input O0
Since everyone loves pics.... My best Red Coat to date. I only have two 5 round mags so I start at the 200 yrd and honestly, doing this within 60 secs sitting with a mag change, even if I had another mag to complete the 13 shots... I simply wouldn't have time (at least where I am right now in my development). Thanks for looking :)
(https://i.imgur.com/qCPXUDH.jpg)
Yesterday morning, sitting position, I know it's not much to some but you have no idea how much I needed to see that I AM capable of this.
(https://i.imgur.com/hT738hp.jpg)
Fynn,
You show true persistence(the mark of a rifleman).Good on you
Ken :F
That looks like a perfect score to me. Well done! :beer:
The next step is to shoot that same stage, but with a timer & a mag change.
Keep going; you're doing great.
Quote from: Fynn on May 26, 2018, 10:39:52 AM
Yesterday morning, sitting position, I know it's not much to some but you have no idea how much I needed to see that I AM capable of this.
(https://i.imgur.com/hT738hp.jpg)
Good on you, Sir.
You WILL get there my friend. You have the correct attiude, Persistence and friends. Dryfire!
Quote from: Fynn on May 15, 2018, 08:25:36 AM
Since everyone loves pics.... My best Red Coat to date. I only have two 5 round mags so I start at the 200 yrd and honestly, doing this within 60 secs sitting with a mag change, even if I had another mag to complete the 13 shots... I simply wouldn't have time (at least where I am right now in my development). Thanks for looking :)
(https://i.imgur.com/qCPXUDH.jpg)
Learn to be precise and then become faster. The other way leads to a very long road to success.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 10, 2018, 10:32:40 AM
Learn to be precise and then become faster. The other way leads to a very long road to success.
Yes, I am taking my time (without overthinking it) and trying to develop consistent precision before introducing strict time limits. I was out of the country when you replied and just now back home. This week doing some dry fire and am itching to get to the range. I'm fired up to get back at it and will remember your advice for sure.
Thank you
After a bit of a hiccup in my practice regimen and the realization that accuracy with iron sights is proving to be too illusive with my eyesight, I recently got a scope to try out on my CZ 452 Varmint (pawn shop rescue) and have finally glimpsed my potential. I understand that most seasoned shooters will look at these targets and say "meh", but some have commented on this thread about the "perseverance of a rifleman" and I would like to post an update on my journey through the "hills and valleys". Please keep in mind, until today (until a scope), I have not had a single fourth stage score above "30". Just practicing not trying to get within time limits just yet.
Thanks again to all of you who inspire me to keep at it.
Second outing with scoped rifle.
9/7/18
4x32 scope, starting prone (3,3,4)(no transition and <80sec, so not "official" by any means)
(https://i.imgur.com/hegKHxy.jpg)
4x32 scope, prone (2,2,3,3)
(https://i.imgur.com/4XCSuTX.jpg)
and... some slowish fire 9/8/18
(https://i.imgur.com/PkEFnvq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ehY00Zo.jpg)
I love this rifle
OK, so making progress with new found eyes (scope) but now another AS specific hurdle to address... or not.
An experienced shooter friend has been watching me in action during my last few practice sessions and he says my mag changes are reasonably fast and that I seem to be running the bolt very smoothly considering my being a novice.
However, stages two and three are proving to be untenable (with really decent hits) due to the :55 and :65 second time limit. After several sessions not applying a strict time limit, this morning I shot the home AQT following the rules as closely as possible including time limits and didn't do so well :2t
Now my first inclination is to not use an alarm but instead only set my stopwatch as I shoot to verify how much time I need to shoot each stage well. My idea is that I should work on cleaning the stages first, regardless of time needed (within reason of course), and THEN work on speed.
Is this sound thinking and a reasonable way to proceed?
The other option would be to continue to chase the time limit and see if I can eventually catch up to it while getting better accuracy along the way.
Fynn,
I've been reading this thread for some time now, and I'd like to first congratulate you on your perseverance, and also on your using a 452 (my favorite .22 is my UltraLux!). Your group sizes are right on, and you're really showing progress. Those are good groups, and you should rightly be proud of them. You can absolutely shoot Rifleman with 6-8 well-aimed shots on stages 2 & 3.
Focusing on accuracy is a good current course, but I would really try to concentrate on quickly getting/maintaining/adjusting your NPOA shot-by-shot. It is understandably hard with a bolt gun, but try to get and maintain as repeatable a cheek weld/position as you can. It will, with practice, become second nature. I've had good, sometimes great, results slightly canting the rifle to the right with my support hand (I'm a right hand shooter) while manipulating the bolt, then snapping it back to my cheek, rather than moving my head between shots.
The more intuitive this becomes, the faster you're on target, the quicker you can get the shot off. It's okay to ignore the time while practicing, think of it as just some arbitrary limit we impose on ourselves. But once you can drop right in on the target after manipulating the bolt, you'll soon see that you have plenty of time to finish stages 2 and 3.
Rock on!
@Ghostring
Thank you so much for your kind words, great advice, and encouragement - I really appreciate it!
Flynn-
I too have been watching this thread for some time, and second Ghostring's congrats on your perseverance and progress.
First, regarding the targets in your Sep 7 post, there is nothing "meh" about those groups - any Appleseeder would be happy to shoot those.
Second, regarding what you posted yesterday, I know what I'm about to suggest is more common to pistol shooters, but a shot timer may provide you with some useful information (e.g. how long you take to get your first shot off, how long between shots, total time for 10 shots, etc.) on stages 2 and 3. Start a stage at the timer beep, get into position, run your gun as quickly as you are comfortable with to get the accuracy you want, then analyze the information from the shot timer. It may give you some specific insight into which portion(s) of the stage are taking up time and where you may want to concentrate on working to shave some time.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: drifter52 on October 06, 2018, 06:03:00 PM
Flynn-
I too have been watching this thread for some time, and second Ghostring's congrats on your perseverance and progress.
First, regarding the targets in your Sep 7 post, there is nothing "meh" about those groups - any Appleseeder would be happy to shoot those.
Second, regarding what you posted yesterday, I know what I'm about to suggest is more common to pistol shooters, but a shot timer may provide you with some useful information (e.g. how long you take to get your first shot off, how long between shots, total time for 10 shots, etc.) on stages 2 and 3. Start a stage at the timer beep, get into position, run your gun as quickly as you are comfortable with to get the accuracy you want, then analyze the information from the shot timer. It may give you some specific insight into which portion(s) of the stage are taking up time and where you may want to concentrate on working to shave some time.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, perhaps a shot timer would be a good idea. I use to do a fair amount of IDPA and had a shot timer, but it's shot...lol
Might be time for a new one, thanks for the suggestion and support.
There are now shot timer apps for many smart phones. you may be able to download one for free or just a few dollars.
a simple digital kitchen timer is all most of us use when we line-boss , you can get them for low cost and just press start then do your transition most are loud enough to hear.
I have also just used the timer on my cell phone when running the line.
if your looking for new dedicated shot timer the Competition Electronics POCKET PRO II has good features , you can menu select sensitivity to register shots from weak 22 or cowboy action to magnum also set the delay time to filter out echo if you are shooting a loud gun inside or under a range cover that generates double readings with the echo.
the ability to run silent and run backup time or see where people are at on your own timer.
but these are really features more for pistol games and pistol training where your trying to shave seconds from a run.
in Appleseed really the timer on the cell phone you already carry or a small kitchen timer work very well and will let you self time a stage maybe work on taking 5 seconds off each stage so 1'55" , 50 , 60 and 4'55" on your timer if you can consistently make that time in practice your good for an AQT.
the issue with shot timers is that if your not the only one no the range they register everyone elsees shots also.
they can be handy for how long to first shot and how long are you taking to mag change because you can see the split times.
but just putting 20 seconds on the times and trying to beat that for transition you can do almost the same thing with a cell phone timer or kitchen timer
Just wanted say "thank you" again to all who have commented on this thread with valuable advice and encouragement.
Last Sunday I was able to attend "day two" of my first AS event and had a really great time.
My slow but steady practice is paying off and the day went well. I've set some pretty lofty goals for myself but am now on my way.
(https://i.imgur.com/APCMxJc.jpg)
Already looking forward to the next one :F
Nice groups. Dry fire, over the winter season, will help to keep you "in-tune". :snipersmi