This has been on my mind for awhile. I read most of the AARs/IAAR's.....especially for KD events.
I am perplexed that those KD events that are attended by AS Rifleman (25M AQT qual) and by instructors that there is not at least 90% of a qualification rate? Frankly, I would consider 99% to be the standard....taking into account someone "may not be feelin it" that day.
SO.....instead of commenting on the IAAR's/AAR's and asking "Why wasn't there a 100% qualification rate", I have often wondered why, I decided to post this here.
Here is what bugged me.....of which I did not realize until my skills improved. Please continue to read....CAUSE I HAVE a suggestion.
We teach/expect KD attendees to be able to call their shots, and record DOPE on their equipment. All too often, this target feedback is in a GROUP of 5-10 sighting shots. How does the shooter know what shot was what?
I read a recent AAR where the temps were brutal last weekend. OK....so maybe only 1 AQT can be shot, or 2. It is a time consumer shooting walk/paste KD for sure.
How BOW DIS? LOL....
In initial sighters, why not walk down range after 1 shot? Yes, I said it...1 shot! That 1 shot is enough feedback. First.....it must be executed properly (6 steps/SHF's) and lastly it MUST BE CALLED.
Then walk down and compare that call.
Some ranges this will be easier to do than others. Talladega it can be a piece of cake....as they are using E targets....instant feedback. Maybe in the case of Talladega, turn the monitors away from the shooters, till an instructor can confirm the shooters call to the monitor.
Other ranges may actually have a berm....and you can do more than 1 shot for feedback.
Places like Lewistown....rugged terrain....maybe have send a group of 3, PLOT each shot, then go compare.
OR.....have some spotting scopes on the line. A decent 24X spotting scope will pick up shots at 200 yards...maybe even 300.
Distance is not that important. In fact for those walk/paste ranges, or those without E targets or berms...., maybe do this in slow prone at 100 yards.
I THINK (and am willing to put a lil $$ on it), that those scoring low....or not even qualifying, will find instantly that a huge part of the "Why" is a lack in the fundamentals.
I would have a tough time running a KD where I had attendees actually shooting full distance (400 yards) with something obviously wrong in their fundamentals.
I'd also be willing to bet, a lot of that has to do with lack of follow thru and also shot calling.
Sacrifice a little "Admin" stuff, or....heck even the basic SHF's and 6 steps (IF it is an instructor or prior Rifleman only KD). Some time sacrificed, and yes....walking back and forth to the targets....to verify if the shooters are calling the shots or not....will pay dividends! Trust me on this!
Does the call need to be spot on? Nope....use the V as the hold point or reference....and have shooters say what time (on clock face) the call is.
4MOA standard stuff..., definitely not looking to bring NRA/CMP into this discussion. Other than to say....in slow fire in those disciplines..., there is feedback on every single slow fired shot.
THAT is what makes a shooter learn shot calling and how to improve.
Thoughts?
OR....(ideas are coming to me)......
Post up a custom target. (One that has say 4-5 "4 MOA" circles on it)....
Have them shoot it in order, top left, top center, top right....etc.....and plot one single shot for each circle.
Lastly for now....
IF as instructors, you are able to take a KD group, and get them ALL to call shots..., then I could care less about the rest of the KD.
CAUSE....logically speaking, if they are calling the shots @100 yards, and they are on call.....distance is only going to introduce a little wind. Especially if 400 yards and in.
I mean...a "little" wind, like no more than 2MOA (and that is a LOT of wind).
I would have a smile from cheek to cheek were I taught to call my shots at a KD. Yeah....I qualified a few times KD....but was not calling my shots.
Be honest with yourself/yourselves....can you regularly call your own shots?
Rhetorical question above....
R/
Chris
I lied....one more OBTW
Maybe start this "shot call" drill immediately at the event, and separate those that have shots on call.....from those that do not (after a few attempts of course).
Take those that can call, and continue with the KD.
Take those that cannot, and find out why. Maybe nothing but position work and dry fire. Cause.....until one call call em and the SHF's are there.....they are not gonna qualify.
Call it a 50/50 event. Still of plenty VALUE to the attendees, and will require instructors to really work with the attendees on those struggling with position and 6 steps stuff.
I've approached BeSwift (AS #2) on a potential "Advanced Appleseed" type clinic. Not sure where those discussions are now....BUT, after thinking some, and writing this post, maybe this is what it should be.
Maybe we just need to "tweek/peak" the current process some.
Whatever it takes for say 95% of instructors to qualify KD....I am all for it.
I know a few....as I am sure we all do, that have after multiple attempts, failed to KD qualify. This is by no means a JAB towards those folks, nor is it a JAB to the IC. What it is....is what it is. LOL...We have multiple instructors and students that cannot qualify KD.
Were I to write that up as a problem statement, with a LEAN/SIX Sigma centric "Charter"....we could go somewhere. But....before we can improve, we have to agree that there is an issue.
I could start the statement with "AS Instructors are not all qualified KD".....or....I could peel that onion back more (using the 5 why's....like with a child...ask WHY 5 times...you will often get to a root cause).....
WHY are not all instructors qualified KD? Well....I would have to ask why again, and also understand that not ALL instructors have had an opportunity to qualify.
Why do instructors that have had opportunity to qualify KD are not yet KD qualified?
OK...we are getting somewhere......
See my point? I feel it is a lack of PROPER instruction in the fundamentals......
OR....could it be that those instructors are not dry firing/practicing?
Hmmmm, I am sure some of the non-quals have practiced/dry fired.
So then what could it be?
Maybe the STUFF they are practicing in dry and live fire, is incorrect?
I've personally seen it.....and been there. I've received poor instruction (not a jab....just that those instructors were still maturing as well).....I've also given/delivered some poor instruction myself.
We are not all experts..., but trust me....it does not take an EXPERT to qualify KD. It takes simply (as SGT Rock says)...."POSITION/POSITION/POSITION", that is a very large chunk of it.
How well do we critique instructors/attendees at a KD in their position?
I think we ASSUME that if one can score a 210 on a 25M AQT they are ready for KD. I would agree somewhat with that....but 210 I would not. Maybe a 225 or better 25M AQT Rifleman is ready for KD.
By "Ready" I mean: READY TO QUALIFY
Maybe take some more time as KD instructors, and really get down and critique the position. Verify they are calling the shots, and that they are on call. If they are not...., and many will not be....explain to them "Likely not gonna happen for you today....Go See Instructor A or B for some one on one positional training.
This approach I bet will yield more KD qualified rifleman/instructors and will also empower the IC to deliver better instruction in our awesome SHF's and 6 steps.
OK...standing by for shots over the bow.
OK....last one from me on this today....
KD IS EASY! Yup.....I said that. Truly it is....once one has the fundamentals....our KD COF is a piece of cake. FUN for sure as well.
But, KD can also turn into the proverbial "Chase" of stuff.
Stuff meaning: Ammo, Rifle, Equipment....etc.....
It is simply stated like this...., IF one cannot qualify on the AS 400 yard KD, THEN:
1. Something is wrong with position (SHF's)
2. Something is wrong with the 6 steps
3. THE RARE but not uncommon equipment malfunction/ammo issue
4. They do not understand IMC (elevation come ups)
5. They do not care
LOL...
That is it.
Do not discount #5.....cause.....they may not "care" because....it is something they "think they already know, or are doing correctly".
OK...that is all. Other than WIND (and wind really is not a big deal....it is the easiest thing to FIX/TEACH, provided they have the fundamentals down. They will BLAME the wind..., but it does not matter at 400 yards (that much....especially on our BIG black targets).
Only other issue I could see is BRAIN MALFUNCTION on the elevation come ups.
Anyone disagree?
I don't AIR our laundry.....but do confer with several of the nations top marksmen when I have a need for advice.
I shared (some) of this stuff with a NRA High Master, named Keith Schachle. One of the nations top shooters in CMP and NRA.
Here is his reply:
I think hammering the basics is a big deal and usually overlooked. I coached a guy who said he had been dry firing every day. Cool, he's motivated. he came over and showed me and his NPA, fundamentals, etc were jacked up. I carefully worded that everything he had been doing was wrong, AND...by doing it WRONG every day he was reinforcing it. It took us 3 afternoons to get him UN-F'd. At that point he was on the right track. I spent about 12 total hours with him before we fired the first shot. We quickly moved to ball/dummy rds and calling shots. he got pretty good at it. Next thing you know he got transferred and we lost touch. It seems there are a lot of instructors (for all kind of different things, self defense, CCW training, etc) that aren't qualified and have folks believing they "walk on water". I proved to him how important a good NPA and holding hard was by shooting blind. I got prone at 200yds built a position and told him to hold a piece of paper over the front objective to block my view. I shot 10 times like that and cleaned the targets "target". He understood then how beneficial it was to hold hard.
My feeling on KDs, and I have only been to a couple, is that there is a rush to the grind. I would prefer to spend an extended amount of time at each distance. I would like to be able to dope my rifle and get good feedback on my adjustments at each distance before I shoot for score. Then instead of having everyone spend the day moving up and down the range, we should should 3-4 qualifiers at the 100 yd line before moving back to the 200 and so on. Witness sheets could be marked 1-4(or whatever) and matched with the qualifiers at the other distances.
Sighters should be fired in the same position as the qualifier whether standing, sitting, or prone.
Olefido!
SPOT on!
I share your sentiments on the "Rush"......
In the days when we counted score on KD AQTs, I would do a drill where we fired a stage and each shot was market on a witness target. Then we could go down range to check out the calls. There's no magic to learning to call the shot.
I also insisted that every shooter have a good 25 yard zero and be shooting 4 moa ( though I might fudge that to six moa on occasion). The main reason someone who can qualify at 25m and has a 25m zero should not shoot at least a 200 is an equipment problem. Stuff happens.
In the KDs that I worked for other shootbosses (other tha VA Shooter or myself) the biggest problem was too much shooting and not enough instruction. Many people tried to run as many AQTs as possible in the hopes that they would get more people qualifying. I still believe that the best way to improve qualification success is through good instruction.
At a KD workshop in 2010 Fred asked me what I would look for in someone to be a good KD Rifleman. I answered someone who could qualify at 25m, had a good zero and had some good KD of instruction. I still believe that.
Y'all might look at my Rimfire KD for ideas: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=36682.msg267399#msg267399
Ran the class last weekend with seven students, four of which had Rifleman patches, but no instructors and one student had never been to Appleseed at all. Four students turned in Rifleman KD scores and one only missed it by two points (he's made it before, was using a new bolt gun this time), the other two were 180+ and only missed out because of the fast stages.
We only shot three KD AQT's. The rest of the weekend was spent taking data, practicing making calls, working with a spotter, and other field exercises including (successfully) hitting 2 MOA targets at unknown distance (up to 130m) with rimfires.
There is a difference between this and shooting 400m with 30 cal, but I'll stake my Hat on my guys knowing very well what they are about after last weekend. :D
I've had guys shoot the 22 and hang in there out to 300 yards on AQT's. I had a small bore shooter shoot clean on a popup course out to 300. He had to get a 300 zero before we began. But once he had his zero he shot 10-10 at 300, with targets ranging from head and shoulders exposure to full torso.
There are several reasons that not all Instructors have qualified at KD events.
Foremost, they don't happen that often in many states. In KY, we only have 1 KD event per year. Miss this one, and it is another whole year.
Another factor is that too many events are rimfire only. It is a step too far to go from 25 meters with a rimfire to a center fire at ANY distance. This is especially true for those who qualify with a 10/22 and then show up at a KD. I remember one Orange Hat who took a hat after shooting the score with a 22, and who then showed up at a KD with a Garand. He was disqualified from shooting at distance by being unable to put 5 shots in a 1-inch square at 25 meters. He was stuck with RSO duty, after paying $90 to attend the KD. He never was allowed to shoot even 1 round at 100 yards, nor at any other distance. He promptly quit Appleseed after this event. Needless to say, he never shot a KD score.
Another issue is that shooting a KD score on a range that is one long green tunnel of trees with no wind builds a false sense of skill. At a KD back in the spring, we had sustained wind of 20-30 mph, with gusts to 35 mph. As several KD Riflemen put it, this wind "kicked their butts". They did not shoot the score at this KD event. It was necessary to correct by +/- 6 MOA on a shot by shot basis at 400 yards. The wind shifted from 3 o'clock to 9 o' clock and back again every 1 to 2 seconds. Those with 55 grain 5.56 ammo were forced to work harder that those with 168 grain .308 ammo. But, it was possible to shoot the score with the 55 grain 5.56 with a 16-inch barrelled M4-gery, if your use of wind flags was up to the challenge.
It is not always a lack of SHF and fundamentals that keeps Instructors from scoring at KD events. Sometimes the wind, or Infernoseed, or Winterseed, or Floodseed conditions makes shooting the score hard. I was at one KD where we couldn't shoot at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards, as those places were not all on dry ground, but under a foot of water. Instead, we shot from longer unknown distances. Given only 1 shot sighters, with a requirement to keep all shots on paper also DQ'ed some shooters while shooting at essentially UD ranges. Most didn't shoot the score either.
But, the biggest issue is a failure to persevere. Environmental and equipment issues can be overcome. And, they need to be, too.
--gb
Quote from: Guntuckian on November 21, 2017, 05:48:40 PM
I remember one Orange Hat who took a hat after shooting the score with a 22, and who then showed up at a KD with a Garand. He was disqualified from shooting at distance by being unable to put 5 shots in a 1-inch square at 25 meters. He was stuck with RSO duty, after paying $90 to attend the KD. He never was allowed to shoot even 1 round at 100 yards, nor at any other distance. He promptly quit Appleseed after this event. Needless to say, he never shot a KD score.
Am I misreading this? A rack grade (my understanding of the term, not necessarily CMP's definition) Garand is nominally a 3-4 MOA rifle, so you'd need a sub-MOA hold to pull this off. Since I have about 2 MOA of slop even with an AR and handloads, no way I'd pull this off with an M1.
Quote from: maxwell on November 21, 2017, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: Guntuckian on November 21, 2017, 05:48:40 PM
I remember one Orange Hat who took a hat after shooting the score with a 22, and who then showed up at a KD with a Garand. He was disqualified from shooting at distance by being unable to put 5 shots in a 1-inch square at 25 meters. He was stuck with RSO duty, after paying $90 to attend the KD. He never was allowed to shoot even 1 round at 100 yards, nor at any other distance. He promptly quit Appleseed after this event. Needless to say, he never shot a KD score.
Am I misreading this? A rack grade (my understanding of the term, not necessarily CMP's definition) Garand is nominally a 3-4 MOA rifle, so you'd need a sub-MOA hold to pull this off. Since I have about 2 MOA of slop even with an AR and handloads, no way I'd pull this off with an M1.
In which case, you wouldn't be permitted to shoot at this particular KD. At this particular range, you are required to demonstrate you can keep your rounds within 4 MOA before being permitted to shoot the KD. If not, you don't shoot. This particular range is in an area where there have been a lot of homes built up nearby. By the 30 cal rule, it really equates to about a 5 MOA by 5 MOA requirement for aiming at a 4 MOA square. A 30-06 makes a 30 cal hole, obviously.
A rack grade M1 is usually about 3 MOA. A fairly decent hold is about 1.5 to 2.0 MOA. If your SHF are good, you can qualify to shoot. We did allow shooters to get several trials to settle in.
Riflemen qualified shooters usually only need 4 or 5 trials, to sight in, and so forth. The first couple trials are to do IMC and adjust sights for ammo lot and temperature conditions. The last time, everyone but one shooter qualified in just 5 trials, as I recall. At this range, we also cannot permit prone shooting at 100 yards. So, you have to do the standard elevation adjustment from 25 meters to 100 yards, for your particular rifle, and then shoot Stage 1 offhand. IAO, in other words.
--gb
Quote from: jmdavis on November 21, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
I've had guys shoot the 22 and hang in there out to 300 yards on AQT's. I had a small bore shooter shoot clean on a popup course out to 300. He had to get a 300 zero before we began. But once he had his zero he shot 10-10 at 300, with targets ranging from head and shoulders exposure to full torso.
I have a Winchester Model 52 in .22 LR with a long slide Lyman aperture sight with theoretically enough elevation adjustment to reach 400 yards. Unfortunately, though, at my home range, rounds have to be supersonic to record on the electronic targets. And, I cannot shoot at any distance where the shot doesn't register. Hence, I cannot shoot this rifle in a KD at my home range.
--gb
Quote from: Guntuckian on November 21, 2017, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: jmdavis on November 21, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
I've had guys shoot the 22 and hang in there out to 300 yards on AQT's. I had a small bore shooter shoot clean on a popup course out to 300. He had to get a 300 zero before we began. But once he had his zero he shot 10-10 at 300, with targets ranging from head and shoulders exposure to full torso.
I have a Winchester Model 52 in .22 LR with a long slide Lyman aperture sight with theoretically enough elevation adjustment to reach 400 yards. Unfortunately, though, at my home range, rounds have to be supersonic to record on the electronic targets. And, I cannot shoot at any distance where the shot doesn't register. Hence, I cannot shoot this rifle in a KD at my home range.
--gb
You can't shoot paper at Malabar anymore?
Quote from: jmdavis on November 22, 2017, 12:08:12 AM
Quote from: Guntuckian on November 21, 2017, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: jmdavis on November 21, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
I've had guys shoot the 22 and hang in there out to 300 yards on AQT's. I had a small bore shooter shoot clean on a popup course out to 300. He had to get a 300 zero before we began. But once he had his zero he shot 10-10 at 300, with targets ranging from head and shoulders exposure to full torso.
I have a Winchester Model 52 in .22 LR with a long slide Lyman aperture sight with theoretically enough elevation adjustment to reach 400 yards. Unfortunately, though, at my home range, rounds have to be supersonic to record on the electronic targets. And, I cannot shoot at any distance where the shot doesn't register. Hence, I cannot shoot this rifle in a KD at my home range.
--gb
You can't shoot paper at Malabar anymore?
Not since Hurricane Irma on High Power 600 yard range. Pits got destroyed. Berm protecting pits slumped about 4 feet toward target line. Just electronic targets for now. No one is allowed in old pits area for now while shooting is occurring, unlike previously. We only got back to shooting on Nov. 15th. More repairs still needed before will have pits and pulling of targets resuming.
It has been a few years since I have shot a KD.
But, I do not recall shooting a red coat target, or squares, or AQT at 25 meters prior to the actual KD COF at a few venues (Ramseur made us start on the 25M range for a zero check and redcoat).
There is a benefit to shooting a squares target at 25M before starting the KD COF. Here they are as I see em:
1. Instructors will be able to verify that the shooters are shooting 4MOA (ish).
2. Instructors will be able to confirm that at least at 200 yards they will be hitting the black
As mentioned above, this is exactly the point where the KD event could be split in half. The shooters on the 25M target that have a 4MOA group, off to the KD line.
The shooters that are not shooting 4MOA on squares at 25M.....off to see instructor A or B for SHF and 6 steps work. Something is wrong.....and to have those shooters that are not shooting 4MOA on 25M squares to continue with the KD COF is a WASTE OF AMMO and their time, and your time as an instructor.
To Guntuckain, and your comment about why a lot of instructors are not KD qualified....I GET IT! I totally get it. This is a post geared towards those instructors that have attended 1 or more KD events and have failed to qualify. Totally understand enviro factors, range distance (driving), etc etc.
I really think the test should be a 25M Squares or AQT.....that will give instructors instant and early feedback/info on the attendees that need more instruction.
R/
Chris
Am I misreading this? A rack grade (my understanding of the term, not necessarily CMP's definition) Garand is nominally a 3-4 MOA rifle, so you'd need a sub-MOA hold to pull this off. Since I have about 2 MOA of slop even with an AR and handloads, no way I'd pull this off with an M1.
[/quote]
SPOT on Maxwell once again.
Reminds me of a post on a 1917 Eddystone group I belong to from yesterday. Guy asked, if his 1917 has a 200 zero, how high would his POI be at 100 yards.
Responses were 3 inches, to 4 inches high.
I thought....with my Garand....it is only 1 MOA difference between 100 and 200 yards. Maybe 2....surely no more. So, I responded as such.
BUT...it got me thinking about exactly what you posted.
Shooting unsupported, with a sling....to a 4 MOA standard. Take a match grade (any match grade rifle).....that is a SUB MOA performer. One may easily jump to a conclusion that 4 MOA will be easy with that rifle, correct?
BUT...., if the SHOOTER does not have a SUB MOA to MOA hold....the groups will never reflect that.
For instance, that 1917 shooters question....., the 3 inch and 4 inch responses are likely valid....as they probably have a 2-4 MOA HOLD.
SHRINKING one's HOLD is a big deal.....and it is all to do with our SHF's and 6 steps. The way one shrinks the hold....is to become a master of the fundamentals.
In order to work on shrinking one's hold...(holding very hard/steady), the shooter MUST have a solid flawless position. It all starts with the position. Maybe then a 3 MOA hold shrinks to a 2MOA hold when the position is solid.
Anyone that shoots a LOT, somewhat competitively (against yourself) knows that once the position is SOLID....the rest of the work comes from trigger discipline and follow thru.
Perfect that....now maybe we are down to a 2MOA holding shooter, maybe even 1.5 MOA.
2 MOA shooting in CMP/NRA high power.....is a PERFECT SCORE! It ain't easy. 2 MOA would be all 10's and X's!
Just some more perspective, and to expound on what Maxwell is sayin.
To the amount of MOA given away via the shooters "HOLD".....
A Garand that is not a NM Garand...an as issued Garand is a 3-4 MOA rifle. Give or take 1/2.
SO...for this example, call the Garand a 4 MOA rifle.
Student A....has a 4 MOA hold....lots of positional and trigger issues.
Ya add that together....and run it thru my brains algorithms....and you have an 8 MOA combo there!
Call it 7....as some of this will be lost in the noise.
7 MOA at 100: 7 inch groups
7 MOA at 200: 14 inch groups
7 MOA at 300: 21 inch groups
7 MOA at 400: 28 inch groups
IF you the reader are experiencing group sizes as mentioned above.....it is something wrong with your position or trigger work.
Rifles come SUB MOA....humans.....MOA has a lot of variation....but we also have a MOA measurement.
EASY to figure out what your personal HOLD is.
Take a rifle to the range. Shoot off the bench in the most stable position you can find. Heck, use a lead sled. Measure the group at 100 yards.
Whatever that is....record it. Commit it to memory...cause that is the MOA/PERFORMANCE your rifle/ammo is capable of.
NOW....throw that lead sled to the side....and sling up prone. Your best solid position you can muster.
Send a 5 shot group....or heck....10 shot group.
Measure that.
The difference between the unsupported prone group, and the supported bench group.....IS YOUR HOLD capability in MOA.
Work on shrinking that.....cause it is really all you can control.
R/
Chris
One problem with a lot of us (definitely me too) instructors is that we're burning up our free weekends teaching instead of shooting like an NRA/CMP shooter.
Think about the process to become an IIT/instructor. Attend two Appleseeds and shoot Rifleman at least once. After that the emphasis (rightly) is to learn the material to become a good instructor and not to improve instructor competence.
I and my KS instructors are going to set a date early in 2018 to do an instructor only clinic to work with each other as coaches and shooters with the goal of doing all the drills (beginner and advanced) with two goals in mind. First to increase our skill level and improve our shooting and secondly to evaluate each drill and figure out what needs changed or tossed so students get the most out of each drill.
I will echo the comment about not shooting enough.
KD can have some challenges, but I think the biggest one is the actual range. Learning come-ups (actual, not theoretical) can be a big issue. Luckily, our New Philadelphia KD we spent the better part of Saturday actually getting zeros at each yardage, and it paid off. big time. Yes, a few people did not qualify. But 75% did. To me, that's awesome. Some of the ones that didn't quite make score, this was their first KD. Give a little more time behind the trigger, and a little more time at distance, and it comes together. But shooting is a very perishable skill. If you don't use it, you lose it. hence, Navybowhunter's post on dryfiring. that's a minimum. Perhaps we all need to step back and give a thought about attending 1 event a year, as a student. Just to keep the skill level up.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 22, 2017, 11:01:38 AM
To the amount of MOA given away via the shooters "HOLD".....
A Garand that is not a NM Garand...an as issued Garand is a 3-4 MOA rifle. Give or take 1/2.
SO...for this example, call the Garand a 4 MOA rifle.
Student A....has a 4 MOA hold....lots of positional and trigger issues.
Ya add that together....and run it thru my brains algorithms....and you have an 8 MOA combo there!
Call it 7....as some of this will be lost in the noise.
7 MOA at 100: 7 inch groups
7 MOA at 200: 14 inch groups
...
Actually, it usually doesn't work out this way. The errors of the rifle are usually statistically independent of one's hold. The MOA of the two effects therefore don't add coherently. Rather, they are orthogonal. They add non-coherently.
In other words, they are at right angles to one another. So, they combine by the Pythagorean Theorem.
4 MOA^^2 + 4 MOA^^2 = 16+16= 32
Sqrt(32) = 5.65 MOA
The old "square root of the sum of the squares" rule.
So, this also means that if one's hold is 2 MOA and their rifle is a 3 MOA rifle, then their effectiveness is about sqrt(2^^2 + 3 ^^2) = sqrt (4+9 )= sqrt(13) = 3.6 MOA.
A Garand should therefore generally be fine for shooting a Rifleman's score. You only have to get 80% hits. That covers when the 2 types of error effects just happen to coherently combine. Which can happen occasionally.
-- gb
I have traveled around to a lot of KD events, and as others have said for various reasons, successfully shooting the score at distance among instructors is not prevalent
an exception to this is P Henry"s method in FL: multiple rounds of sighters at each stage then when dialed in shoot the stage - it makes getting through a KD AQT about a 4 hour ordeal and IMO does not show a shooter can smoothly change positions/ distances competently - although it does show they have the fundamentals taken from 25 meter shooting -
- but at distance the devil is in the details:
are com ups known / understood and entered correctly
does your sighting device allow you to see at a glance what elevation /windage adjustment it is set at
do you understand adjustable adjective and how to set it (not common knowledge in AS)
do you know your ammo
are you shooting your own target???
if someone can shoot the score with an AR at 25 meters, I can put then on my AR, with my ammo / sight settings and coach them quickly through a successful KD AQT - but again this does not demonstrate competency, just an ability to follow directions
so what does it take to be able to consistently shoot the score with no sighters / no coaching - I would say 20 aqt's a year at distance and decent notes - more if you want to be able to do it with multiple rifles - that of course is not commonly happening
- and is the crux of why active AS instructors (who can shoot a good score on a 25 m aqt on demand) do not consistently shoot the score on KD
From the time I took a hat, 14 months to Shootboss and first year of being a Shootboss I can probably count on one hand the number of AQTs I shot.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on December 01, 2017, 09:31:59 PM
From the time I took a hat, 14 months to Shootboss and first year of being a Shootboss I can probably count on one hand the number of AQTs I shot.
And that is a problem. If you aren't practicing a skill it is atrophying.
A Daisy 853 is a beautiful thing. It makes you brake position, rebuild and establish NPOA for each shot. My accuracy and form actually improved.
I can see your position improving from ingraining the process. But how about your sustained fire in sitting and prone.
I like the 853 as a tool. I think that it is a little too light for many adults but its accuracy is very good.
My suggestion is to plan events and make sure that you can get at least one of the instructors on the line for some time at every event. It's easier if you have more than 3 instructors, but Appleseeds have been run with two instructors for 65 shooters.
I'm way late getting in on this but I still would like to post about my struggles early on trying to,shoot Rifleman at full distance. The main problem for me turned out to be inaccurate comeups at 300 & 400 yards. I shot at 3 different KD events before I ever was absolutely sure where to hold on stage 3&4.
It was really frustrating so what I did was find a range where I could shoot at 300+ yards and worked it out on my own at my own pace. I don't think there would be adequate time for an instructor to get me on target back then, especially when some of those events had 30 or more shooters.
At the first couple of events, I wasn't even on paper at 400 so I wasn't sure if I was high or low. Not only was I not successful, I had no idea which direction I was missing. At my fourth KD, we had a small group and got to shoot more sighters than before and I think that would be good if shooters,could spend more time doing that instead of rushing to try and get 3-4 AQTs in. So smaller groups, more sighters and shooters that persist on their own time are what I would suggest.
I feel like the instructors did all that could be done for me while I struggled but more time for sighter shots could help get more KD Rifleman scores. My health has gotten so bad I can't do the walking at a KD anymore but I will never forget the happiness and feeling of satisfaction getting that Long Range rocker.
The problem is that some people put more AQT's before good instruction and practice. You should have time at each yardline for sighters and your instructors should be able to work with you to get you where you need to be. The standard come ups will get you on paper with a .223 or a .30. There is documentation for other calibers as well.
This is an excellent thread and I have read the posts with interest. Based upon my experiences in Known Distance, I am going to offer my theories on why the percentage of Rifleman at known distance may not be where we think it should be.
First, contrary to the common assertions otherwise, I believe qualifying at known distance IS harder than at 25 meters. Remember, many instructors and Rifleman do not qualify every single time at 25 meters and some have a hard time qualifying one out of ten times. Add in the issues of trajectory, windage, temperature variables, and the bark and recoil of centerfires which are present in a known distance event. The result is a very sizable group which will have difficulty qualifying KD.
Second, when I have qualified at KD shoots, it has been my observation that less hands on instruction occurs on the line. The instructors assumed the shooters had mastered the fundamentals and concentrated on the trajectory and windage elements of KD. I do not believe this assumption on fundamentals is necessarily sound. There were a problems which were being exhibited. For example, after I qualified a couple of times I dropped off the line and put on my instructor cap. The very nice shooter who had been right next to me on the line was having problems. When I watched him it was purely a matter of trigger squeeze and he qualified the very next qualification. He thanked me profusely and noted he had been doing the same thing all weekend and would have continued if I had not advised him on it. I came away from the KD with the belief that even advanced shooters need coaching or instruction.
In summary, the first problem above is not easily addressed. However, the second problem can be addressed with attention and enough instructors on the line to get down in the dirt and help the students.
I know this is an old thread, but it has a lot of interesting thoughts and ideas. I shot my first KD Appleseed last weekend and thought I would share my experience for what it is worth.
I am not an AS instructor. I have shot at two prior 25m 2 day AS events with a 22LR rifle. I qualified both times with scores on the AQT usually in the mid to upper 220s and a high of 236, so not stellar but decent. I think my fundamentals are reasonable, but certainly very far from perfect. I can call my shots some of the time, but not every time. I personally would not trust one shot at distance as an adequate basis on which to make a scope adjustment. I also would not trust my accuracy shooting offhand for sighters. This KD had to be a one-day event due to range restrictions imposed by other scheduled shoots and of course, this time of year days are short. The shoot boss wanted to try to get two AQTs in as well as give us a chance to sight in and try a few rounds at 500 yards, so we were under some time pressure imposed by available daylight.
We had a small group with five shooters on the line, two of which were instructors, me, another man, and his son. I am pretty sure that the three of us who were not instructors had all shot 25m AS events and qualified. Temperature was in the mid to upper 30s. Fortunately, there was little wind so that was not a factor. I was using an AR with a Nikon 4-12x40 scope with a ballistic drop reticle. I had gone to Nikon's spot-on ballistic calculator website to try to dope out the reticle holdovers to use for my 55 grain ammunition at various magnifications. I had decided that I would zero the scope at 100 yards and try using the BDC markings on the scope reticle to estimate holdovers for the 200 and greater ranges.
I wanted to get out and actually confirm those holdovers prior to the event at actual ranges, but lousy weather and other constraints prevented me from doing so. All I had been able to do before the event was confirm my 100 yard zero using the ammunition I planned to use. I was also using a new shooting jacket that required some sling adjustments and I had not thoroughly tested my ammunition in the particular carbine I planned to use.
We spent a couple of hours on classroom instruction on ballistics, range estimation techniques, strategies for compensation for ballistic drop (scope adjustment, versus reticle-marked holdovers, versus aiming off), and a little on wind estimation and compensation. Everybody seemed to have reasonable technique so there was little instruction on the fundamentals of position, trigger control, NPOA, etc. There really would not have been time for it.
I learned a number of things when it came to live fire. First, I had at least three failures to extract with the ammunition I was using. This had never happened before. I also found that one of my magazines did not seat unless I really smacked it in, and twice I had user-induced malfunctions that cost me points because I had not adequately seated the magazine. I found that using the BDC reticle on my scope was a semi-disaster. I did not expect the information provided by Nikon's spot-on application to be precisely accurate, and it was not. But it probably would have been close enough if I had not found ways to screw it up. On one occasion when shifting ranges I forgot to adjust the magnification to the setting appropriate for the particular holdover circle I was using. I found that trying to aim using the very top edge of a little circle was much less intuitive, less accurate, and slower than using the cross-hairs on the reticle. And on one stage I got confused and used the wrong holdover circle to aim. Needless to say, my score on the first AQT was less than stellar. By the time we got to the 400 yard slow-fire prone stage I had decided to give up on the BDC reticle and use scope adjustments instead. The problem was that I was now at 400 yards with a scope zeroed at 100 yards, and had to use a "rule of thumb" to guess the adjustment required to go all the way from 100 to 400 yards. Fortunately, we were allowed to shoot 5 sighters before shooting each stage for record, and I found that the rough rule of thumb adjustment got me onto the bottom of the target backer with one hit on target, so I was able to further adjust the scope off that.
By the time we shot Stage 4 I had given up on the first AQT as anything other than a learning experience. After two scope adjustments, I did manage to get most of my shots on target at 400 yards. We then started shooting the second AQT "backwards" from Stage 4 and I got all but one of my shots on target. After that Stage 4 we were given an opportunity to shoot out to 500 yards with 5 sighters, then 5 shots for fun. After making a scope adjustment after the sighters that was partly an educated guess, I was happy to get five out of five shots in the black at 500 yards, not a tight group but on target. At this point I felt like I was starting to warm up a little.
Now we shot the rest of the second AQT back from 400 yards. Since I had not nailed in the scope adjustments for each range going out, I now had to guesstimate a bit coming back. Fortunately, I was allowed to shoot some sighters at 300 and 200 yards to refine the scope adjustments. On Stage 2 I had a user-induced malfunction due to not fully seating the magazine that caused me to get off only six shots, and after I figured out the problem and got the magazine in all the way I got rattled and cross-shot my third round onto my neighbor's target who came out of that stage with eleven out of ten hits. But due to my goof-ups, I got only five hits on Stage 2. Freehand is usually my weakest position, and on Stage 1 at 100 yards, I had another failure to extract and a double feed to clear. Fortunately I had enough time to just get all my shots off, and lo and behold, I got 10 hits. So I did qualify on the second AQT by 2 points. As it turned out, all but the young man did qualify that day.
Obviously, I learned a good deal about my scope, ammunition, and equipment. What would have helped me do better? Well, better preparation for one thing with better testing of my rifle, ammo, and magazines. And an opportunity to confirm my BDC calculations at actual distance and get used to using the BDC features of the scope. If I had used scope adjustments going out to 400 yards, I would have had more accurate adjustments coming back in, although I can't really say that affected my score on the second AQT all that much. I think the opportunity to fire more sighters at each distance would have been helpful, but doing so would probably have prevented us from shooting that second AQT as we used every minute of available daylight. But for a two-day KD event, I would agree with those who have suggested more time spent on sighters and scope adjustments between Stages to allow the shooters to get more familiar with their personal scope, rifle, and ammunition system.
Hey pblanc,
Thanks for posting this - I was just thinking about KD and there are a lot of good points in this thread and also things that you posted.
A few thoughts off the top of my head:
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I personally would not trust one shot at distance as an adequate basis on which to make a scope adjustment.
I wouldn't either.
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I was using an AR with a Nikon 4-12x40 scope with a ballistic drop reticle. I had gone to Nikon's spot-on ballistic calculator website to try to dope out the reticle holdovers to use for my 55 grain ammunition at various magnifications. I had decided that I would zero the scope at 100 yards and try using the BDC markings on the scope reticle to estimate holdovers for the 200 and greater ranges.
In the same vein I did a KD with a new scope. However what the BDC does is give a good approximate hold over. Not perfect but pretty dang good. I had a Primary Arms ACSS reticle. It's pretty good. However the ammo I was using, Hornday Steel Case Match - 75 gr HP, was not as advertised. It boasted about 2850 FPS. But it's really more like 2550. Slow. But accurate. So it had more drop. However it beats the Walmart and Surplus and is cheap. But it screwed up the BDC markings. BUT - I then figured out if I did a 100 zero - and then gave it another 1.5 MOA up after doing the 100 zero - it was pretty close. Close enough to do a KD. But it was trial and error.
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I wanted to get out and actually confirm those holdovers prior to the event at actual ranges, but lousy weather and other constraints prevented me from doing so. All I had been able to do before the event was confirm my 100 yard zero using the ammunition I planned to use. I was also using a new shooting jacket that required some sling adjustments and I had not thoroughly tested my ammunition in the particular carbine I planned to use.
Yup - lesson learned - you absolutely gotta get out and try your stuff out.
And until you actually get out and try out your equipment you just never know. And what is worse is that there is a lot of bad info out there on the internet. And some of the ballistics calculators can be screwy.
Now add the fact that lots of ammo specs are overblown. For instance the manufacturer says it's 3200 FPS - but it's really 2950 or even less. So when you go to shoot at 400 and you find that you have a bunch of holes 1 and 2 inches right under the 4 ring because the ammo you're shooting is not quite as advertised. As I mentioned I zeroed at 100 and gave it 1.5 MOA up and things worked a bit better then. But that all depends on the ammo. And some crappy ammo out there too. Ain't nothing like some 'flyers' to screw up your score. Find what works for you and stick with it.
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Obviously, I learned a good deal about my scope, ammunition, and equipment. What would have helped me do better? Well, better preparation for one thing with better testing of my rifle, ammo, and magazines. And an opportunity to confirm my BDC calculations at actual distance and get used to using the BDC features of the scope.
Yup again. And some of the stuff you're not going to be able to verify unless you're on a KD range. Here in my area we haven't had any KD ranges and just last year finally got one (thanks Tim) so I'm learning myself.
And again - thanks for your post since I need to look at things from somebody that just did a KD. And also how I can best run KDs. This helped a lot and there is a lot to chew on in this thread.
Keep in mind, ammo speed is highly dependent on barrel length. Rule of thumb is 40 fps per inch. I handload all of my own ammo, and run the same load in two rifles. My 20" AR shoots a 69 SMK at 2874 fps, and my 16" shoots them at 2550. Almost twice the rule of thumb. At 600 yards, the difference in drop is about 40". I'd be willing to bet Hornady did not test the 75 grain bullet in a 16" barrel for published chrono data.
That said, anyone using a BDC is setting themselves up for failure, unless you only shoot the ammo that the reticle was designed for, AND your rifle happens to shoot it at the same speed. Heck, even ambient temperature can change bullet speed enough to render a BDC useless. Buy a scope with turrets that track reliably, and use them. I happened to spend a bunch of time with the same scope mentioned, and found the turrets very reliable, and excellent glass for the price point.
Quote from: LogCabinShooter on November 26, 2018, 03:25:18 PM
That said, anyone using a BDC is setting themselves up for failure, unless you only shoot the ammo that the reticle was designed for, AND your rifle happens to shoot it at the same speed. Heck, even ambient temperature can change bullet speed enough to render a BDC useless. Buy a scope with turrets that track reliably, and use them. I happened to spend a bunch of time with the same scope mentioned, and found the turrets very reliable, and excellent glass for the price point.
BDC and holdovers are both options of last resort, as far as I'm concerned. The point of Battle Sight Zero, as far as I understand it, is to use the same sight picture from 25-300 yards on a man-sized target: hold center mass and shoot. If you're ringing steel or shooting a hits-count KD, that seems like a perfectly good way to do it, and is totally worth proving out for a SHTF situation. Changing sight picture between stages doesn't work for me, though; I've tried using BDC optics, and can never remember which of those damn lines I used on the previous shot when I'm trying to get a group for a zero. You guys who try holding on different parts of the target at each distance are nuts, as far as I'm concerned. ;D
Having shot NRA/CMP highpower for a few years now, IMHO it's better to always turn elevation and windage knobs back to zero between KD stages. For elevation, use mechanical zero for A2/M1 sights, and mark your zero with a bit of tape on a scope so you don't end up off by a turn. For windage, use a paint pen to mark the knob on an A2 or M1, and use the zero reference or tape again on a scope turret. In your prep period (or before, if handling the rifle is allowed) put on the dope for your current stage by counting clicks. As soon as you're done, write down what you actually used for that stage by clicking it back off. It's not rocket science.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/zeros.html (http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/zeros.html)
The drill of plotting calls on a witness target that jmdavis mentioned above is pure gold: once you can trust your calls, you can adjust those knobs after a single shot if you have target pullers/etargets, or can see holes. I lost four points at my last match because I took a followup shot before making necessary dope changes (two changes were necessary since I forgot that I was using 1/2 minute vs. 1/4 minute clicks).
For instruction and checking, maybe taking students out to the 200 line and seeing if they can put 10 rounds in the V would be a good drill, before advancing with the other yard lines? Dick Whiting recommends a drill like that, where you put 10 single-loaded shots in the X-ring of a standard NRA SR target at 200 yards. You're close enough that wind isn't a big problem, and far enough that you can't cheat on your position like you can with a .22LR at 25m. It's way harder than it should be.
I've not had time or coin for ammo to shoot a KD just yet, but I'd love to. Do most folks run a scope or irons? I assume scope, but I also know it can be done with irons. I don't have the coin for a rifle with great sights (young guy saving for law school and all that), so my bolt gun has a wonderfully imprecise slider Williams peep on it; being ambitious, I'd love to snag that Long Range rocker using a .308 boltie with not-amazing sights, but I'm also a bit prone to Sky Pies.
On a non-equipment note, this reminds me to dry-fire with all my rifles (esp once Savage sends back my bolt gun--appears warranty repair will be necessary to enable it to actually zero).
Quote from: Faramir on November 26, 2018, 10:10:05 PM
Do most folks run a scope or irons? I assume scope, but I also know it can be done with irons. I don't have the coin for a rifle with great sights (young guy saving for law school and all that), so my bolt gun has a wonderfully imprecise slider Williams peep on it; being ambitious, I'd love to snag that Long Range rocker using a .308 boltie with not-amazing sights, but I'm also a bit prone to Sky Pies.
No idea what most people do, but I did it with irons on an AR-15A2. With that compound sliding dovetail on the Williams sight, you'd have to use Battle Sight Zero and holdovers.
As a point of reference, at our KD shoot at Ramseur a couple weekends ago, there were 15 shooters on the line. 12 used an AR-platform with scopes, one used an M1 iron signs, one used an M1A scoped, and one used a bolt action scoped.
I believe all used the battle sight zero method.
And we had 10 of the 15 walk away with their KD patch.