This is about SIGHT Picture.
OK, anyone that has attended an AS, or....been in the Military and qualified with the rifle or pistol is familiar with the different holds, or maybe some of them.
Why do we use different holds, what is the advantage? What is the disadvantage?
Iron Sights first:
6 O clock hold is what I was taught thru AS, and also in Military. But why....and what exactly is a 6 o clock hold?
Simply stated, a 6 o clock hold is aligning the sights (the front sight blade) on the 6 o clock portion of the aiming black. Makes sense right? Benefit is that in poor lighting, the contrast between the black and white on target can be a repeatable aiming point.
What other holds are there? Center of Mass....simply holding dead center on the target right?
Line of White....this is a sub 6 o clock type hold, just a line of white above the front sight.
Frame.....Well....2 choices here, top of frame or bottom.
There are others, flat tire, etc etc.
But....which one should you use, and more importantly why?
Some smart people I know, and good shooters will tell me if I asked them, they would say "Chris....let the conditions determine the hold you will use". Another one would say "CENTER of MASS and Only center of mass".
I'm 47, and my reading vision started to deteriorate a few years ago. My eyes have always been bad and I have the astigmatism. But, 6 o clock on the AQT bottom row worked for me for Rifleman.
When I got into CMP/NRA stuff, many cautioned me against a 6 o clock hold (Several of whom are current and prior AS instructors). Center of mass is what many told me to do. That worked well for me on irons, and my 200 line stuff (Standing and Seated) was coming along very nicely. 300 yard (Rapid Prone) was always strong but....600 yards slow prone....
I sucked! LOL...no other way to explain it.
It was my eyes. I tried every hold imagineable, with exception of a frame hold. Scopes came out....and I opted for a scope.
But, why....what was really happening at 600? At 200 I stated it was coming together really well....why at 600 (prone) my most SOLID position was I doing poorly.
It was my eyes. That simple. Vertical Stringing is what I was realizing at 600. Sure...some of this was likely me not holding as steady as I should...but...the real issue was my eyes. My steadiness/harder holding in prone was surely not worth 15-20 points in score.
Nearly impossible for me to get a good sight picture at that distance. Target aiming black was a significant BLUR...and that was my issue. Tough to find a repeatable hold.
FFWD to Optics now......
Which hold would be preferred with a scope?
In my opinion it is CENTER of Mass. I have not experienced a lighting condition yet (not to say I won't) that will not allow for a decent center of mass hold.
Target is a circle. As is the V ring on the AQT. I center up on the X or center of target, and build the position to suit for that center of mass hold. It is a very repeatable hold and that is why I use a center of mass hold.
What do you do and why?
I'm definitely interested.
I "THINK" that we often confuse "Riflemans Dance" and our SHF's. What I mean by this, is once the position is built, and shots start to disagree from the POA (POI not equaling POA) many decide to "HOLD Over".
THIS is where bad stuff and habits get developed. Sure...in Rapid Fire....Hold over, remember to adjust the position though....cause muscling is bad...we know this.
SO...Maxwells post on "the knobs" is what led me to writing this. I am curious as to what it means to you all. I am still learning, and am interested on your thoughts about sight picture/HOLDS and your process if you need to adjust POI. Do you muscle it? Do you adjust NPOA and hold over? Do you make a sight adjustment?
Out of the 3 questions above...which do you think is more REPEATABLE? Which sounds like it is a time saver...but if done incorrectly can result in a myriad of bad POI stuff? Which is actually faster and more reliable?
I would submit that dialing the knobs to match my POA with my POI is FASTER, and more reliable. Especially shooting unsupported from a sling. I can work some MAGIC off a supported strong side prone position off a bipod...but....that is supported shooting.
Thoughts?
R/
Chris
I guess what I am trying to convey here....is that often I hear Riflemans' Dance and relate back to my chase for the Riflemans Patch.
Fred's story is great. Army dude shooting 20 shots at 600 all in the same spot in the berm. LOL
ACCURATE yes....PRECISE....absolutely not.
As students and instructors both can read these forum posts..., I would caution the readers to "think" about some stuff. Like holding over...., nothing wrong with that at all.
BUT....ya kinda have to start building the position over to accomodate that new hold, don't we? I mean....lets say I start with a COM (Center of Mass) hold. My shots are 12 o clock 8's. I can hold over for that.....BUT....I am also slung up SO tight and have spent well over 3 minutes BUILDING and ESTABLISHING a ROCK solid platform. How would I do that? Serious question....let me think this out and type.....
In order to adjust elevation I have a few options right? Draw leg up or down, move support hand on stock in or out....what else?
OH....become an inch worm. FOR FINE NPOA adjustment in prone especially, I stretch out my abdomen, or bring it in some.
THIS is the degree of precision I am talking about, and also looking for when I set up my prone position.
SO..., in SLOW fire strings, slow prone..., why should I ever hold over or under or wherever?
Adjusting the position is a time eater is it not?
A simple IMC type glance at my data book, and my last shot or two....,and a rotation on my knobs...Whalla! X
I am reminded of yet another topic..., but this has more to do with the wind. DO I adjust the knobs....or wait it out. Topic of another post. It is the magic for sure!
R/
Chris
I KNOW I come off NRA/CMP centric..., whateva...LOL...it is my thing, obviously.
BUT.....
Think about it....Appleseed's COF's are FAST! VERY FAST!
I have more time it seems in CMP/NRA. Even our rapid fire strings are FASTER.
Our slow fire strings, are FASTER...more like Rapid fire to me. 2 or 5 minutes for 10 shots standing may seem like an ETERNITY.....BUT....it truly is RAPID.
SO....that being considered...., how much time does one really have on an AQT to "Dance"!?
I'd say not much time at all. IF a change is needed.
Most AS'rs will not realize a change is needed until they walk up to that target and see it. Most AS'rs do not use a spotting scope.
SO....all things considered and looking at this from both sides...AS and CMP/NRA.....
TURN the knobs!
LOL
ONE cannot TRULY DANCE unless ONE is getting FEEDBACK from the target.
Spotting scopes.., one reason why we use em in NRA/CMP.....more importantly we use em to dope the wind.
HOW the heck can one dance.....if one cannot see what is happening on the target?
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 13, 2017, 06:22:17 PM
ONE cannot TRULY DANCE unless ONE is getting FEEDBACK from the target.
Spotting scopes.., one reason why we use em in NRA/CMP.....more importantly we use em to dope the wind.
HOW the heck can one dance.....if one cannot see what is happening on the target?
This i something that is very different between Appleseed and CMP/NRA.
In Appleseed one does not look for hits on paper (through the scope) as it develops the bad habit of anticipating the shot. We (the shooter) don't use spotting scopes between shots because that strays even further from the "practical" aspects of riflery that are at Appleseed's origins (I guess that's how it could be seen). In training I'm all for using a spotter instead of walking back and forth but one shouldn't need it to make hits if one's dope is good.
An Appleseed Rifleman knows their come ups (whether that's clicks or holds) to make hits in that 500 yard Rifleman's quarter mile and that's good enough to get hits "on target" but not going to win any precision matches. It all depends on what your goal is.
As far as muscling vs. re-adjusting NPOA I've been guilty of muscling once in a while when it's a close thing and I'm impatient BUT man do I shoot better when I'm on a rock solid NPOA and the rifle instantly returns onto target.
Example.
I was feeling pretty good this Sunday with a buddy and had a great NPOA on a 685 yard distant target. Used my Daniel Defense 16" LW with Burris MTAC 1-4x slung up with my home made "field" tactical sling (modified Vickers) that I "fixed" so it functions as a big loop Rhodesian style shooting sling. I was using 80gr SMK's single loaded that I was getting good dope on for a longer range competition.
Photo 1 - Fired these 5 rounds at 200 yards to refine my initial zero.
Photo 2 - Fired this 4 inch 3 round group at 685 yards and knew I was not hitting center (definitely have to use a spotter for that).
Photo 3 - Dialed 1 MOA down and 1 MOA left and fired this 5 round group. 8" for all 5 rounds. I fired 3 into less than 4 inches and my buddy suggested I quit while I was ahead but I wanted a 5 round group. Shanked the 4th shot high and right (called it before he even said where it hit) then got the 5th shot back where it belonged.
The 4 rounds that I called good were 4 1/2". :slap:
Could not have shot those groups if I was muscling in the slightest. For that you either have perfect NPOA or you don't. At closer distance I can slop a shot by muscling one or even two MOA if I'm in a hurry but it doesn't always work.
Yellow target plate is 20" wide x 30" tall.