Hi all. I am putting together a CZ 527 in .223 for KD. Because of the compactness if the rifle fixed scopes are best for it. I am going to get a Leopold FX for it, I just am not sure which. I would like to be able to shoot this rifle to 600 at Talladega, but most will be at the 100-400 range. 4x or 6x. Thanks.
Can't say about KD use yet but my .223 bolt action has a 6-24x on it, and my experience is that 6x is getting to be too much for a utility rifle at short and middle distance. It just isn't as fast on target (for me).
Between the two I'd go with a 4x if I was in your shoes. You could also try a compact 1-6x or 2-7x variable, if you can find one you like. Or even that crazy Burris 2-7x scout scope if you are a wildman.
One nice consequence of using a fixed scope is that you quickly get a feel of what it looks like to shoot at the various distances. Since you are not zooming in and out all the time, you "learn" to range distances with it, just by looking through it, intuitively. After a KD you'll know what 400 yrds looks like, and 300, etc..
Leupold has some nice glass:
https://www.leupold.com/product-series/fixed-power-rifle-scope
I'd go with the 6x
The standard rule of thumb is 1x per hundred yards. If only shooting to 400 yards, real or simulated with reduced size sillouettes, then 4x is the recommended power. On the other hand, if shooting at 600 yards, then 6x is what is usually recommended. And if shooting to 1200 yards, 12x is usually recommended. These are all for shooting with a sling. Appleseed style shooting.
Bench rest style shooting is a different story, altogether. Higher powers are usually used for that.
Using more power than recommended just causes more apparent jitter, and even worsens visibility under bad mirage conditions for field shooting. More scope power is not the solution to shooting better at distance.
On my 7mm Rem. Mag bolt Rifle, a 1200 yard gun, I have a 12x FX Leupold scope. It works fine
-- Gary
I would suggest a fixed 4X.
I can and do regularly shoot 1 - 1.5 MOA groups slung up prone @ 600 yards with a 4x optic.
Too much magnification, too much pulse/movement seen in the reticle TRANSLATES to: Tough to hold the rifle steady.
This is the thing scopes and irons have in common. You really only need to see the target aiming black, determine a hold.....and the rest is trusting the position.
4X fixed would be perfect for AS KD....and would also be able to be used in NRA/CMP HP.
I do have a 16X scope on my AR10, but that is a tool for a different job. I use that scope for ranging unknown distances, and it is a FFP optic, so it is designed for that. I shoot 1000 yards and in with that rifle and the optic on a MAX of 7X.
Consider reticles. I recently purchased a March optic (very $$)...but a big driver for me was the reticle. For AS KD a simple duplex reticle would be fine.
Personally for mid range (800 yards and in).....a 4X optic with a "non-busy" reticle is what I prefer. Lots of these smaller 4X optics are designed with reticles for ranging. In my opinion that is a sales gimmick and almost impossible to range with a 4X optic past say 500 yards (somewhat precisely). Simple reticle (dot, or circle) or duplex.
R/
Chris
R/
Chris
A lot of people forget this but you can range with a duplex, sort of. It just isn't as intuitive or flexible as the FFP & "Christmas tree" system.
Minutes is minutes though. It'll give you at least one reference point.
A Leupold VX-6 1-6X24mm is my favorite scope. The reticle is a German #4 (adjusts in mils) which I would have preferred a MOA based scope, but it is very easy to adjust.
I also have a Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4X20mm. Nothing wrong with that scope either.
They both have non-busy reticles (German #4 and Duplex). Essentially both are variations of a crosshair.
Like Guntockian posted, magnification can "hurt" you. If you need it to see the target by all means get it, if you don't, stop dialing magnification.
Navybowhunter post also gives very wise advise.
There are lots of choices out there.
aj
Good morning, Darryl.
Either 4x or 6x will be fine for shooting out to 600 yards. A couple of examples:
- the USMC is doing well with the 4x ACOG.
- competition service rifle shooters at the CMP are limited to 4.5x optics. They are shooting crazy good scores at 600.
Making good hits is all about fundamentals. :)
When you choose your scope, make sure it has features for the style of shooting you'll do most. If externally adjustable turrets or a BCD type reticle are something you'll use often, choose a scope with it. It'll prevent buyers remorse later. (Ask me how I know. :wb: )
See ya on the line!
v/r
MO
ACOG all day for me.
Good glass, light weight, BDC reticle, range estimation - all with no "knob fiddlin". Zero at 100M and good to go - on and off rifle over and over with no significant change in POI. Fixed power is very forgiving on eye relief, which allows much faster follow ups. Did I mention they are made in USA and near bullet-proof? 3.5 power is sufficient to engage at 600, but not great for detection. Of course it still does OK even inside 100M. Always there is a trade off.
Our newsletter that is being sent out today has a review of the Primary Arms 5x Prism for AR that I wrote.
It's an ACOG knockoff that actually works unlike some I've seen. Held a zero after 1000 rounds nows.
BDC reticle with what's called an ACSS range estimation system that I believe works. ACOG is even using the ACSS now. And under 300 bucks.
Tons of articles out there about it and plenty of youtube reviews.
http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-5x-prism-scope-w-patented-223-5-56-5-45x39-308-acss-reticle-pac5x
Quote from: scuzzy on November 08, 2017, 09:58:19 AM
Our newsletter that is being sent out today has a review of the Primary Arms 5x Prism for AR that I wrote.
It's an ACOG knockoff that actually works unlike some I've seen. Held a zero after 1000 rounds nows.
BDC reticle with what's called an ACSS range estimation system that I believe works. ACOG is even using the ACSS now. And under 300 bucks.
Tons of articles out there about it and plenty of youtube reviews.
http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-5x-prism-scope-w-patented-223-5-56-5-45x39-308-acss-reticle-pac5x
I love my ACOGs, but that Primary Arms ACSS 5x can't be beat for the price! :1luvu
I got one for my son and it's really nice.
Oh, btw... Primary Arms and Trijicon partnered up to put that ACSS reticle in an ACOG housing. I'm soooo tempted, but can't justify another optic this year. $$-0
I am unfamiliar with the ACOGs. Will have to read up. I am leaning toward the 6x, but will that be too shaky at the 100? the more I consider this the 4x may be fine especially considering CMP comp, which I have not shot, but never say never! Thanks for all your replies everyone. Grandma I sure would love to make it to Talladega one day!
I shoot a 6x offhand at 100 and 200yds. There is quite a bit of wobble to make peace with in my hold. not impossible, but you might really be better off with the 4x. focus on the reticle, and either way you'll be fine.
The 1x per 100 yards of range rule of thumb recommendation for selecting your scope power is for two reasons. First, it allows seeing the target adequately to center the target for your hold without accentuating the wobble from pulse or whatever. It also allows ranging targets to about 2% accuracy, even if using a duplex reticle.
There are two ways to calculate range. I prefer taking 5% off the ratio of inches of width of the target divided by MOA apparent width of the target, for range in hundreds of yards. Mentally, I take 10% of the range, divide it by two, and subtract off this correction from the estimated range. The alternate method is to multiply the ratio of (target width in inches divided by target width in MOA) by 95.49, for range in yards, but this typically requires a calculator.
For using a duplex scope reticle as an MOA scale, you first determine the duplex width in MOA. Put a ruler at 25 or 100 yards, and measure, in either 1/4 inch increments or 1 inch increments to determine your duplex Gap in MOA. You then estimate the tenths of the duplex span that just covers the target width. The target width is then measurable from 1/10, 2/10, ...up to 10/10 of the duplex span.
You then use either of the two methods previously mentioned.
For ranging a target accurately, 6x works well out to 600 yards, 4 X works well out to 400 yards, 12x works well out to 1200 yards.
For a Second Focal Plane scope, where the reticle size appears the same size as a function of scope power, you have to calibrate duplex width in MOA at just the scope power you intend to use. For a First Focal Plane scope, the reticle varies in apparent size, and you can use any scope power.
Ranging ground targets out at distance where mirage obscures the bottom of the target, you range on just the top half of the target, which you can see clearly using the 1x per hundred yards Rule of Thumb for your scope power.
Pulse varies for me, from about 1 MOA to about 1.5 MOA, left, right, left, right... This limits my best group size to about 2 MOA when shooting "on the clock". A shooting jacket, or a pulse patch helps. But, in really hot weather, pulse effects are worse.
-- Gary
I'm a big fan of the SWFA SS 6x. It probably wouldn't work in your scenario because the one drawback that scope has is it's honkin huge; but for anyone else following this thread that's looking for a very cost effective ($300) optic for mid range paper punching it's well worth your consideration.
I actually just found one in a pawn shop with mounts and caps for $135. Just need to build another rifle to go under it
Quote from: scuzzy on November 08, 2017, 09:58:19 AM
Our newsletter that is being sent out today has a review of the Primary Arms 5x Prism for AR that I wrote.
It's an ACOG knockoff that actually works unlike some I've seen. Held a zero after 1000 rounds nows.
BDC reticle with what's called an ACSS range estimation system that I believe works. ACOG is even using the ACSS now. And under 300 bucks.
Tons of articles out there about it and plenty of youtube reviews.
http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-5x-prism-scope-w-patented-223-5-56-5-45x39-308-acss-reticle-pac5x
This^^
Darryl,
The ACOG is a model made by Trijicon originally for the American military - "Advanced Combat Optical Gunsite". It employs an inverted and illuminated chevron at the top of the reticle, which allows the "Bindon aiming concept", so named for the late founder of the company. Below the chevron is a vertical stadia line with horizontal lines of decreasing width used for ranging and BDC at the same time. It is not made for precision shooting - only quick and dirty out to 600-800M depending upon the model. Light, durable and fast on target with good color and light. No batteries required. Only has one real drawback - it will not work well out of the box when shooting from a dark room out into bright daylight. It is the only scope I have bought to date that I do not regret whatsoever.
The one thing I have learnt about glass is never to confuse myself in terms of cost. As a man once told me at the range: "Well son, you can buy it once or buy it three times". I was on my second cheap spotting scope and looking for the third. Would have been about the same cost and a whole lot less aggravation to buy a good one right off. I use a "budget" scope in action rifle comp - a Burris M-Tac. It' OK and seems to stay together under fairly rough handling and pouring rain, but it pales in comparison to the ACOG, which is of course US-made.
We all of us have realities of budget to deal with, but still, steer clear of the $59.99 too-good-to-be-true stuff and go with direct personal recommendations. Glass worth mounting starts at $300 and even that is just OK. Double the cost of the rifle is what the bench rest guys say. Hard to swallow, but I do now embrace their point. Anyone want to buy a few crappy (but oh so cool looking) scopes made by slaves in a really bad place? :wb:
Thanks Trey. I am going to look at them, but I am one that resists change a bit. I am with you on cheap scopes. I am seriously looking at a fixed Leopold I think. That ACOG sounds fantastic for an AR, but as this is a sickly beautiful walnut and blued rifle I just cant see putting any space aged stuff on it.
Quote from: Kennebago on November 08, 2017, 09:16:55 AM
A lot of people forget this but you can range with a duplex, sort of. It just isn't as intuitive or flexible as the FFP & "Christmas tree" system.
Minutes is minutes though. It'll give you at least one reference point.
How so?
Quote from: baddarryl on November 09, 2017, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: Kennebago on November 08, 2017, 09:16:55 AM
A lot of people forget this but you can range with a duplex, sort of. It just isn't as intuitive or flexible as the FFP & "Christmas tree" system.
Minutes is minutes though. It'll give you at least one reference point.
How so?
You measure the distance from your center crosshair intersection to the point where the reticle thickens in MOA (using a grid target helps). With that knowledge, you can begin ranging. It may not always be pretty, but it is there.
You actually should have two yardsticks to use with duplex - for example, if you know your reticle is 15 MOA from the thick crosshair's edge to the center of the reticle, you know that your reticle is approximately 30 MOA from thick edge to thick edge. Presto-chango, your lowly duplex is now a precision rangefinding instrument!
Picking numbers at random to illustrate, but that's the concept. You will have to measure your own equipment to know what's what.
The math is a lot simpler for fixed power riflescopes, or riflescopes where the reticle is in the first focal plane (i.e. it scales with magnification). Variables with the reticle in the second focal plane are tougher to work with as you zoom in and out (i.e. that 30 MOA spread at 4x isn't 30 MOA anymore if you change magnification to 8x).
Edit: Check your scope manual. There may be a breakdown of your scope's subtensions in it.
I will go against the grain here - you will give up points without AO (as you transition positions, it is practically impossible to hold the eye in the same spot) , and low powered fixed do not have AO - you can get reasonable sized adjustables with AO
best thing I found about an acog - it's resale value
From what I've found, the reason that low-power scopes don't usually have AO (adjustable objective / parallax / target focus) is that they don't really need them. Low magnification settings have a greater depth of field & lower parallax error than high magnification settings. Plus there's usually a large enough eye box to cover a wide range of shooting positions. Of course this varies by the quality & design of different scopes.
I love adjustable parallax (target focus) on my higher magnification scopes, though. I won't buy one without it.
Big fan of Meopta scopes. Terrific glass and they hold zero with repeatable returns. Clear glass means no eye fatigue after looking through it all day.
My CZ 512 Tactical wears a 6x42 in Leupold QRW rings. My 527 also wears one in CZ rings. After lapping both sets of rings and using a feeler gauge and quality (Made in 'Murica) torque wrench, they've been infallible.
Besides, a Czech rifle deserves a proper Czech scope.
A close number 2 choice would be a Leupold (VXII or better).
Or spend the kids' inheritance and get a Schmidt-Bender!
6x and learn your scopes reticle system.
Quote from: George63 on November 09, 2017, 10:39:51 PM
I will go against the grain here - you will give up points without AO (as you transition positions, it is practically impossible to hold the eye in the same spot) , and low powered fixed do not have AO - you can get reasonable sized adjustables with AO
best thing I found about an acog - it's resale value
You still can get 4x scopes with adjustable objectives. Hawke makes them. Simmons used to. I'm sure other manufacturers do, too.