Just watch this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffuGpz1ZsD8
IF you watched? Comment!
On a known distance, highly visible target range like a High Power course his findings don't surprise me. I wouldn't expect the scope to make some earth shattering difference but can totally see it mattering enough to affect a shooter's placement by a few places.
On lower contrast targets and/or less than ideal visibility the scope would have a much greater advantage. If one is trying to hit the guy with the radio/phone while he's peeking around the corner of a building or the deer that is on the edge of a woodline a magnified optic (even just 4x) is going to make a huge difference in hit probability.
Good video!
As an aside we as an organization should definitely make sure we're never giving the impression that irons mean the shooter is more hard core. All they mean is the shooter has better eyesight. No one would sneer at the wheelchair racer as less of an athlete than the runner and the iron/scope debate should be seen the same way. Use what is needed and enjoy the activity.
Good advice Lomshek!
Konrad Powers is a wealth of info, he has several you tube videos on the finer points of Marksmanship.
I found the statistical difference between his iron sighted groups and scoped groups to be sound. Not much of a difference, but definitely a difference. I'd say in the hands of a High Master, scopes are worth between 7-11 points. OR....X ring counts are higher.
R/
Chris
In other words, all NRA and CMP record scores shot with a scope under the new rules should have an asterisk, as they are not directly comparable to the records shot the old fashioned way with irons.
OK Bob....stir it some more! LOL
NOT gonna get into the asterisk/different class stuff. It has already been hashed out over and over. Scopes are here to stay.....wanna be competitive? Use the scope.
SERVICE rifle....mimics what services are using.
Guess anyone that legged out with the M14 should have an asterisk cause they didn't do it with the Garand....and so on and so on.
You shooting HP now Bob?
Thanks for posting that, I think I've learned something from every one of Konrad's videos; his website is gold, too. I'm shooting irons because I can still see (no glasses yet at 41), but I have a scoped AR upper and a scoped 10/22 just in case.
One comment: he's wrong about using clicks vs. MOA. Every Appleseeder should should know why!
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 07, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
Konrad Powers is a wealth of info, he has several you tube videos on the finer points of Marksmanship.
Absolutely! Thanks for the link to his videos. I watched a couple others after the scope one and subscribed to his channel.
Quote from: FiremanBob on November 07, 2017, 11:42:11 AM
In other words, all NRA and CMP record scores shot with a scope under the new rules should have an asterisk, as they are not directly comparable to the records shot the old fashioned way with irons.
That could be said of every contest ever. Better training techniques, better quality equipment, revolutionary technology. Any number of things make incremental or incredible changes as a sport evolves.
There'd be a lot of asterisks in the record books if we added them every time an improvement to last year's methods or equipment was made.
Thanks for posting, very interesting...
Makes sense, you can shoot better when you can see better!
He improved with the scope, but given how well he was shooting with irons, a huge improvement would mean 10 X's ;D
Quote from: maxwell on November 07, 2017, 05:49:49 PM
Thanks for posting that, I think I've learned something from every one of Konrad's videos; his website is gold, too. I'm shooting irons because I can still see (no glasses yet at 41), but I have a scoped AR upper and a scoped 10/22 just in case.
One comment: he's wrong about using clicks vs. MOA. Every Appleseeder should should know why!
Figured someone would catch that! Hey....to each their own. But I agree, I don't do the clicks. Anyone that knows of Konrad (or watches a few of his videos) will gather immediately that he is one smart dude. I am sure he could give a college level lecture on MOA, but he chooses to do his thing. That is OK as well. Really, only thing that matters is results!
But yeah....hair on back of my head stood up when I heard him get into the clicks discussion and why he uses clicks.
What really impressed me was the amount of DATA he had. My man shoots a LOT!
Mmmmm, the popcorn is good...
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 08, 2017, 02:20:17 PM
What really impressed me was the amount of DATA he had. My man shoots a LOT!
The dude has a journal of every match he's shot from 1998-2016. Go back to 2000-2001 and you can see his scores jump when he switched from the M1a to the AR-15.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/index.html (http://www.sw-hearing.com/index.html)
I started doing this last spring, too. I don't plot rapids, but I try and keep a log of scores, what went right, what went wrong, and what my zero was. I'll usually plot at least the first half of slow fire, including my calls, which is how I finally learned to call shots.
Quote from: maxwell on November 08, 2017, 07:59:18 PM
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 08, 2017, 02:20:17 PM
What really impressed me was the amount of DATA he had. My man shoots a LOT!
The dude has a journal of every match he's shot from 1998-2016. Go back to 2000-2001 and you can see his scores jump when he switched from the M1a to the AR-15.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/index.html (http://www.sw-hearing.com/index.html)
I started doing this last spring, too. I don't plot rapids, but I try and keep a log of scores, what went right, what went wrong, and what my zero was. I'll usually plot at least the first half of slow fire, including my calls, which is how I finally learned to call shots.
Pretty much what I do Maxwell. Offhand I still plot every one, Rapids...I just make a circle of where the 10 shots were, and 600 I am religious and plot it all.
Only for XTC matches. For CMP Games/200 yard line or NRA HP reduced courses, I annotate the zero's in the book but do not plot.
Very interesting. I will have to start plotting my shots. What sort of book is he using?
His book is likely custom built. Many shooters simply make their own tailored data books.
Personally, I preferred 2, but am partial to the Creedmoor Sports service rifle book. Jim Owens sells a decent book as well, BUT it is a modified grid (MOA), to account for his "big lie" stuff. I think for a new HP shooter the Jim Owens book is great. But once one learns the wind, the Creedmoor Book is what I now prefer.
Note: The above 2 books, and the ones Konrad is using are for NRA HP or CMP Service rifle matches. 200/300/600/1000 yard stuff. Books are tailored for the discipline.
There was an Appleseeder (Tony) from Impact Data Books. Google them. He sells Appleseed KD AQT data books if you are interested. He also has a plethora of other designs with different pages for different stuff. Unknown Distance books, PRS centric books, etc.
R/
Chris
Quote from: peeksights on November 09, 2017, 08:51:56 AM
Very interesting. I will have to start plotting my shots. What sort of book is he using?
Custom book, but he has links to download the 200/300 yard pages here.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/data_books.html (http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/data_books.html)
Seconds on what Chris said re: the Creedmoor data book. It's not perfect, but I'm too lazy to make my own. Creedmoor's also has the little circles for plotting calls to keep you honest.
Thanks Maxwell & Chris. I will probably improvise my own for now, but it is a good & interesting exercise to practice shot calling. Not to mention track improvement for my own ego...